Ilitch's Biggest Flops?

[Detroitnerd]

Seems like times are changing a bit. Used to be that if you brought up inconvenient facts about Mike Ilitch and his business dealings, there'd be more posters shouting you down. Nice to see a discussion of the city's No. 1 welfare addict and how it breeds poor business acumen.

If I remember correctly, the reason Second City shut down was because Olympia wasn't paying the licensing fees. Silly Chicagoans! Don't they understand that Mikey doesn't have to pay stuff like licensing fees. Not when you have as much power as he's used to.

Or, as old Vanderbilt once said: "The law? What do I care about the law? Ain't I got the power?"

[Wesley Mouch]

Divert isn't a pejorative verb. We disagree about a few things, but I'm surprised we disagree about that. Mirriam-Webster's defines it as "to change the direction or use of [[something)". That's what happened.

Fair enough. The scheme seems like a scheme -- and the use of the word might be appropriate. But I still lump the word with 'slash' and 'struggle' in today's media.

But what percentage of Michigan taxpayers has even heard about the DDA, the DEGC, the MSF, and the MEDC? I've looked into this a bit and still don't understand what they do and how the people who run them are selected. It's not something the news media inform us about. Certainly not the dailies three-days-a-weeklies. Not tv, not radio either. It's a shame the "fourth estate" has been so decimated, especially in places like Michigan. They've been unable or unwilling to do the job.

Perjorative verb alert... 'decimated'. They're not down to 10%... or maybe they are. But the word is certainly a favorite of the blogosphere -- which to me counts are part of the fourth estate in many ways.

...The relationships between these governmental and extra-governmental agencies and the private companies they fund are so convoluted it's easy to get thrown off the trail. It's tiresome trying to make sense of the labyrinthine details. It feels like relief getting distracted before figuring them out.

So perhaps there shouldn't be any EGAs? I think we would agree that they are often just a Robert Moses Lazarus Effect [[RMLE)

I saw it on the news: Detroit went buckwild over the weekend. How big are Trump's hands, really? CJ Barrymore's opened a roller coaster! Are Ozzy and Sharon kaput? How about that woman who spray painted her cheating husband's Range Rover? What happened to the Tigers' offensive productivity? Who will inherit Prince's estate? Eva Mendes was secretly pregnant and already gave birth! Did Gigi Hadid wear anything under that dress? Those killer tornadoes in Oklahoma. It looks like several days of rain....

All true, except about the rain. Is TV weather ever accurate? Even before they were decimated.

[rb336]

I'll just say this year's Tigers

[Junjie]

Remember when the Park Avenue Hotel needed to come down because high-rise buildings can't be next to arenas, according to Homeland Security guidelines? Surprise! That was total BS!

Here's a pic from tonight's game. And thank god the Tigers snapped their skid.

[emu steve]

Remember when the Park Avenue Hotel needed to come down because high-rise buildings can't be next to arenas, according to Homeland Security guidelines? Surprise! That was total BS!

Here's a pic from tonight's game. And thank god the Tigers snapped their skid.

Actually there are no high rises near Nationals Park yet [[that has been the problem, i.e., construction nearest the stadium has languished because of the 2008 recession and tangled land deals).

The only structures near [[adjacent) Nationals Park are the two parking structures. One is visible in center field.

The commercial office buildings and lodging buildings under construction, visible in the photo, are say a 1/4 mile or more away. One very long block away.

They are further than they appear on the photo. The subway stop is 1/4 mile from the stadium's center field entrance.

There is a new apartment building across S.Capitol which some might think is too close, though. It is however, separated by a 6 lane divided highway. I'll let security buffs say if that is too close.

Go Tigers tonight. Zimmerman vs. Scherzer in a high interest game.

[Bham1982]

Actually there are no high rises near Nationals Park yet [[that has been the problem, i.e., construction nearest the stadium has languished because of the 2008 recession and tangled land deals).

Highrise buildings aren't allowed in core DC. In any case, no one is building a highrise building because of a baseball field.

[emu steve]

Highrise buildings aren't allowed in core DC. In any case, no one is building a highrise building because of a baseball field.

I assume the buildings under construction are 'standard' D.C. 'high rises' which are what 12 or 13 stories tall. Not sure exactly.

They are clearly visible in the photograph.

Yes, there are height limits in D.C. No Trump Tower for D.C.

[emu steve]

Highrise buildings aren't allowed in core DC. In any case, no one is building a highrise building because of a baseball field.

Although as we've discussed many, many times, in that part of D.C. the development has been so amazing it is not possible to say the development is because of X or Y or Z.

The baseball stadium was DELIBERATELY placed a 1/4 mile walk from a subway station. It is near some some new federal office buildings, e.g., DOT, etc.

The plan was always to foster development in a forlorn area with convenient access to subway.

It has been a huge success.

[Junjie]

Actually there are no high rises near Nationals Park yet [[that has been the problem, i.e., construction nearest the stadium has languished because of the 2008 recession and tangled land deals).

The only structures near [[adjacent) Nationals Park are the two parking structures. One is visible in center field.

The commercial office buildings and lodging buildings under construction, visible in the photo, are say a 1/4 mile or more away. One very long block away.

They are further than they appear on the photo. The subway stop is 1/4 mile from the stadium's center field entrance.

There is a new apartment building across S.Capitol which some might think is too close, though. It is however, separated by a 6 lane divided highway. I'll let security buffs say if that is too close.

Go Tigers tonight. Zimmerman vs. Scherzer in a high interest game.

Those buildings are on the block across the street from the stadium. The brown completed building at right of cranes is significantly closer to the stadium than the metro. The empty space even closer to the stadium is a planned construction site, so I'm not sure what your point is. Mine is that the "concern" expressed that someone would use the Park Avenue's height to fire a weapon at Little Caesars Arena was fallacious BS, since DC [[which I'm inclined to think has a higher likelihood of terror attacks than Detroit) has no problem building structures that look directly into the stadium on the block next to it.

Edit: I just measured on google maps for you. Going a quarter mile from the completed building [[Hampton Suites?) puts you all the way across the stadium on the south side. The concourse is 300 ft away and center field seats 400 ft. away from that building. The building under construction is 500 ft. from the center field seats.

[dbc]

The commercial office buildings and lodging buildings under construction, visible in the photo, are say a 1/4 mile or more away. One very long block away.

They are further than they appear on the photo. The subway stop is 1/4 mile from the stadium's center field entrance.

Actually, the Metro is less than a city block from the outfield entrance at Nats Park, maybe 1/8 mile away, tops. Also, there is a new 12-13 story hotel directly across the street from one of the two parking structures attached to the park, with another 12-13 story building going up directly across the street from the other structure. Granted, the parking structures are between the stadium itself and the hotel/new building, but the structures are part of the stadium footprint.

Plus, there are two 10ish story developments slated to go directly across the street from the outfield entrance to the park. One is supposed to start later this year with delivery in 2018, while the other is still a vacant hole awaiting funding. Sorry, I don't know how to do a link on here, but if you google 65 N Street NE Washington, D.C., you can see the two parking structures, the outfield entrance, the stadium, and the development locations on the north side of N Street directly across from the park.

I don't know if the layout in DC proves Ilitch is full of shit or not, but I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case.

[Wesley Mouch]

...Plus, there are two 10ish story developments slated to go directly across the street from the outfield entrance to the park. ... I don't know if the layout in DC proves Ilitch is full of shit or not, but I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case.

Ilitch apologist Wes here.

An observation about all human behavior. If Flint's water goes bad, and you hate Snyder. Then Snyder did it. If you don't someone else's 10-story building nearby, and someone from DHS says they don't like them near stadiums, then you hear 'we need to tear them down because DHS says so'.

Maybe Ilitch is evil... or maybe just self-serving. Nothing illegal if the later. But you don't have to like it.

[ABetterDetroit]

Let's just cut to the chase. Five years and a few months of a billionaire sports team owner in town that doesn't own ANY in the D has proven that Ilitch is part of the problem and not the solution.

Sucking up property like a vacuum and doing nothing with it besides parking and stadiums then making empty promises while he is handed hundreds of millions and even more property for his private use hasn't produced anything but 'hope' that things will change. Hope never paid the salary of a policeman or firefighter.

[Bigdd]

Perjorative verb alert... 'decimated'. They're not down to 10%... or maybe they are.

Decimated means to reduce BY 10%. Not reduce DOWN TO 10%.

When an army has been decimated,... it means 10% of the soldiers have been killed or badly wounded,.. at which point a sane general would typically surrender.

The media seems to have never taken English,.. and they use that word as though it meant "destroyed".

Of course the media in general also has no idea that "due" is not a synonym for because. It can only be used to imply legal obligation.

Nor do they have any clue what a vigilante is. [[A member of a vigilance committee.)

[Wesley Mouch]

Decimated means to reduce BY 10%. Not reduce DOWN TO 10%. ...

Thanks for the decimating my comment. Due to your post, I'll apply more vigilante-ism.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

Decimated means to reduce BY 10%. Not reduce DOWN TO 10%.

When an army has been decimated,... it means 10% of the soldiers have been killed or badly wounded,.. at which point a sane general would typically surrender.

The media seems to have never taken English,.. and they use that word as though it meant "destroyed".

Of course the media in general also has no idea that "due" is not a synonym for because. It can only be used to imply legal obligation.

Nor do they have any clue what a vigilante is. [[A member of a vigilance committee.)

You might not like the fact that language evolves, but it does. Using "decimate" as a synonym for "destroy" is not incorrect. I did not know, however, that it can also mean "tithe" or a 10% tax.

http://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2...roy-one-tenth/

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/decimate

[Gistok]

Correct DetroiterOnTheWestCoast....

In WWII Coventry, Dresden and Rotterdam were decimated [[utterly destroyed)....

[Bigdd]

You might not like the fact that language evolves,

I think you mean "devolves".

And it is not ok that as a result of lack of education, and fools misusing words that 2 very different words now mean the same thing to some people.

So now there's no word for destroying 1/10 of something?

We'll have no word for a baby goat? No word to infer legal obligation?

We'll need to talk in very long sentences filled with 3 letter words because no one can actually speak English?

TV is all done at a 6th grade education level,.. so even idiots can enjoy it. And the average TV broadcaster has an education level not much above that.

Are we to allow them to be the ultimate determiners of language? Does the teenage valet at your local mall get to determine the car you drive?

[bust]

Right on DotWC.

Decimate has been used to mean "destroy a large portion of" since the 1660's:

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?...earch=decimate

That's how I used it.

Bigdd, would you suggest we return to the other conventions of English that existed prior to then? Dryden's "Maiden Queen" was published in 1667:

https://books.google.com/books?id=Es...page&q&f=false

Language like that would seem out of place today. And things were already "devolving".

It was interesting to learn the original, or subsequent, meaning of decimate. But I can't remember yet having a use for a word that means to destroy specifically 10% of something. It's been more useful to have a word that means to destroy a large portion of something, and I know of no better word than decimate for that. I'll continue to use it that way.

I'll continue using "kid" as a synonym for "child" too. And for a baby goat in the proper context. I think most people will understand.

[emu steve]

Sorry, guys, for the confusion.

I doubt it is a 1/4 mile from the metro station [[M. Street and Half, S.E.) to inside the ball park.

OTOH, it is probably more than an 1/8th of a mile. The typical adult should be able to walk 1/8 mile is 2 or 3 minutes. Anyone who has ever walked from the subway to the centerfield gate knows it isn't a short 3 minute walk...

Nationals Park is buffered by parking garages. So the 10 story buildings are STILL much further away from Nationals Park than the one building [[RIP) was to the Little Caesars Arena.

I can check with someone who might know if DHS had any say in the layout of the development around Nationals Park.

[emu steve]

BTW, folks, Remember what you learned in high school: something to the effect that not all blocks are created equal.

Looking at Google map and looking at K, L, M, N, etc. one finds that the blocks from M to N and N to O are actually twice as long as the block from K to L and L to M.

BTW, one end of the Metro subway station is at 1/2 and M [[not marked on the map). The other exit is marked).

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Na...!4d-77.0074329

BTW, I will be in downtown today so I'll take a look. If it weren't raining I'd walk it and time it with a stop watch.

[dbc]

BTW, folks, Remember what you learned in high school: something to the effect that not all blocks are created equal.

Looking at Google map and looking at K, L, M, N, etc. one finds that the blocks from M to N and N to O are actually twice as long as the block from K to L and L to M.

BTW, one end of the Metro subway station is at 1/2 and M [[not marked on the map). The other exit is marked).

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Na...!4d-77.0074329

BTW, I will be in downtown today so I'll take a look. If it weren't raining I'd walk it and time it with a stop watch.

Now, there is also a 10ish story building currently going up across the street from the south entrance of Nats Park. No parking garages act as a buffer there. Instead, it's just the entrance steps and a stairwell to the left of the steps. You can google 95 Potomac Ave SE and the MRP blue banners on that fence across from the park are where the building is. You can also see the stands above the red Nationals Park sign. Judge for yourself how that compares with ilitch's new arena and the Park Avenue Hotel.

Oh, and I just used mapmywalk and from the 1/2 Street Metro turnstile to the centerfield gate on M Street, it is 0.11 miles and took me 2 minutes 15 seconds. That was at a leisurely pace with a laptop bag.

[emu steve]

Now, there is also a 10ish story building currently going up across the street from the south entrance of Nats Park. No parking garages act as a buffer there. Instead, it's just the entrance steps and a stairwell to the left of the steps. You can google 95 Potomac Ave SE and the MRP blue banners on that fence across from the park are where the building is. You can also see the stands above the red Nationals Park sign. Judge for yourself how that compares with ilitch's new arena and the Park Avenue Hotel.

Oh, and I just used mapmywalk and from the 1/2 Street Metro turnstile to the centerfield gate on M Street, it is 0.11 miles and took me 2 minutes 15 seconds. That was at a leisurely pace with a laptop bag.

You are correct. I was by yesterday with car [[didn't walk it), but it is 1/8 of a mile [[sometimes when folks walk after being up 18 hours they think distances are much longer than they are).

I DID take photos from my car and there appears to be a say 100 yard buffer around the stadium, mostly those parking garages. S. Capitol is a buffer to the west and Potomac Ave. to the south.

The question of 'how close is too close' is not something I would know. [[I do know close counts in horseshoes and hand grenades, but don't know about how DHS feels about 'close'.).

I do know someone in the media who might know the answer to these questions. I e-mailed her.

P.S. w/out trying to start another flame war, could DHS have recommend BOTH buildings come down? I don't consider Park Ave. a buffer, at all... [[compare it to say S. Capitol or Potomac Ave on Google Maps).

[dguy4evr]

Count me in among the fans of the Ilitches. Like all big companies, LC has had its ups and downs, but they're a solid, profitable company, with lots of area employees and thousands of mostly first-time small business owners as franchisees. And flop ideas? Remember the Edsel? The McDLT? New Coke? Businesses try new things. Some work, some don't.

On the sports front, the Ilitches have mostly been willing to pony up the money to field good teams [[obviously 1995-2005 was an austerity period for the Tigers). Doesn't always pan out, but that's true of all sports teams. Say what you want about Comerica Park, it is a better [[if less nostalgic) place to watch a ballgame than Tiger Stadium, and it is integrated into downtown. Same will be true of the LC Arena.

As for property, yes he owns a lot of things that have yet to be restored or land yet to be developed. But a lot is now or about to be starting soon. For the first time in his decades downtown, market conditions are starting to warrant doing the work.

Olympia is far from perfect. But they are good corporate citizens. And they have done more for the city than anyone on this website. And they accept the hate and scorn with a smile.

What I don't understand is the constant complaining about the people that are putting real money into this city. People like Gilbert and Rodger Penske. What do you think the city would be like if these investments did not happen?
In a word, "Don't bite the hand that feeds you!"

[Wesley Mouch]

What I don't understand is the constant complaining about the people that are putting real money into this city. People like Gilbert and Rodger Penske. What do you think the city would be like if these investments did not happen?
In a word, "Don't bite the hand that feeds you!"

Neither do I. Many decisions made by Gilbert, Penske, Ilitch, et. al. are not to my liking. But they clearly love Detroit.

Like in politics today, here nobody accepts good enough. Compromise? No way. I want exactly what I want or I'm gonna whine.

Sure, Ilitch blew it with the Madison-Lennox. He is a product of the 50s and 60s. During his formative years the way to deal with cities was thought to be to improve the physical infrastructure. Knock down entire neighborhoods and replace them with new. New will fix the soul. Cabrini Green was no doubt well-intended. Demolition of old crap was the stock progressive policy.

I don't think Mr. I even thought about the M-L. Parking wasn't the goal. It was just an old building. And old was bad. Or so was the progressive mantra before global warming.

[bust]

Neither do I. Many decisions made by Gilbert, Penske, Ilitch, et. al. are not to my liking. But they clearly love Detroit.

I'm sure Ilitch loves Detroit. Who wouldn't after all Detroit's done for him?

But don't lump Gilbert and Penske with Ilitch. They deserve better company. For the results of his speculative "investments" in Detroit -- the vast swaths he has gobbled and left empty for potential arena sites -- he belongs with Moroun, Apostolopoulos, Sachs, et al..

Like in politics today, here nobody accepts good enough. Compromise? No way. I want exactly what I want or I'm gonna whine.

The Ilitch critics are eager for Detroit to improve. Of course there are multiple routes toward that goal. But with decades of his urban interventions to judge him by, we are correct to be skeptical of his. Especially with so many indications the path Ilitch entices us to follow today will lead to a similar place as before. The only unwillingness to compromise I hear is about refusing to be taken for fools again.

His loudest critics complain about the vast tracts of historic, irreplaceable, often beautiful architecture in Detroit Ilitch has demolished or left to rot. They bemoan his destruction of so many smaller blocks with smaller spaces designed to support mixed uses and lively sidewalks where smaller businesses can more easily get their start. And they oppose the single-use superblocks and seas of parking lots he has put in their stead. Those are exactly opposite the dense, diverse, walkable urban fabric so many of his critics support.

Count me among them. We lack the capital to effect an impact even remotely like he can. But our interest is in a healthy city, not in extracting wealth. I daresay we love Detroit more.

Sure, Ilitch blew it with the Madison-Lennox. He is a product of the 50s and 60s. During his formative years the way to deal with cities was thought to be to improve the physical infrastructure. Knock down entire neighborhoods and replace them with new. New will fix the soul. Cabrini Green was no doubt well-intended. Demolition of old crap was the stock progressive policy.

I don't think Mr. I even thought about the M-L. Parking wasn't the goal. It was just an old building. And old was bad. Or so was the progressive mantra before global warming.

Someone who uses a word as a pejorative is unqualified to provide an unbiased definition of a word. That's how you use "progressive". Besides, what's progressive or not is as subjective as what's liberal or conservative, or spicy or bland. It's relative, a matter of opinion, and moreover, a loaded term. It's a distraction.

The facts are the 50's and 60's "slum clearance" "urban renewal" programs that destroyed so much of our urban fabric were the result of federal initiatives whose advocates The National Housing Institute says were "typically downtown businesses, developers, banks, major daily newspapers, big-city mayors and construction unions – what John Mollenkopf would later call the 'growth coalition' and Harvey Molotch would label the 'growth machine.' Most planners and architects at the time joined the urban renewal chorus. It was, after all, their bread and butter."

http://nhi.org/online/issues/146/janejacobslegacy.html

Jane Jacobs published "The Death and Life of Great American Cities" in 1961. It was a visionary critique of the top-down "slum clearance" programs and eloquently presented rehabilitation as a far superior approach. It became required reading in planning and urban studies programs. It has been profoundly influential since.

Whatever your definition of "progressive" it's no fit for Ilitch's version of urban development. The negative consequences of the demolition approach have been discussed for more than half a century. Surely he's aware of them. Do you really think he's looking out for Detroit in the first place? A misguided altruist? Come on.

If the area around the arena becomes anything resembling what he entices us to expect in his PR material I'll be happily blown away by surprise. If it comes directly from Olympia's investment even more. But he will still have so many neglected treasures and fallow acres outside the district to address.

Curbed recently published an excellent commemoration celebrating Jane Jacobs:

http://www.curbed.com/2016/5/4/11583...-jacobs-legacy

Included in that is an awesome one-page illustrated guide to her philosophy, by James Gulliver Hancock. It's fun to read, in clear terms:

http://www.curbed.com/2016/5/4/11582...lliver-hancock

Here is the National Housing Institute's great summary of her legacy, again:

http://nhi.org/online/issues/146/janejacobslegacy.html