Woodward Avenue Light Rail

[wolverine]

My question to everyone who brings this up is, what is supposed to be the benefit of median streetcars? Keep in mind that, wherever the streetcar is running, removing a lane of traffic in each direction so the trains can run in exclusive lanes is not an option no matter which configuration you choose. [[If that's an option, you almost automatically select the median because it's cheaper - one station serves trains in both directions. But it's not an option.) I can't fathom how running trains in the center lanes, in traffic, is better in any way than running trains near the curb, in traffic. Are there any modern examples where this has been done?

I explained a few posts back on how it's done. What they do is utilize the left center turn lane. As the train approaches, the left signal automatically turns green to clear cars out of the turn lane so the trains can pass. So as the train moves down the street, the signals are choreographed to allow it to pass.

Obviously, one turn lane isn't wide enough so one lane of parking is sacrificed. Yes some people will holler about losing a dozen parking spots per block, but the benefit outweighs this. You never want to lose through lanes of traffic. You are right, it's not an option. But sacrificing parking is always an option. It doesn't have to be studied or require all that much community input. It's just eliminated. But removing lanes, or sharing lanes of traffic requires a lot more planning and clever signaling. The best usage is the center of the street since it receives the lightest traffic [[turning vehicles only) and the vehicles can directed when signaled. Plus you can place collapsable bollards in the median to discourage drivers from entering the center lane where no turning occurs, but permit emergency vehicles to enter the trackway if necessary.


This is more difficult to do in the right lane. If cars are attempting to park and merging in front of trains, the operator will be hitting the brakes alot. It's just like a bus.

Hopefully that answers the question.

In hindsight I had thought all along they were running center which is why I was a huge proponent of this line. But now I'm concerned and I think BRT would have been a better option since it accomplishes the same at a lower cost. At least it would had been a bit more flexible for expanding capacity or modifying travel-way in the future.

Oh well, I'm still going to ride it anyway. At least for the basic purpose hudkina described, it will get me from New Center to downtown when I'm visiting in town.

[Hermod]

I explained a few posts back on how it's done. What they do is utilize the left center turn lane. As the train approaches, the left signal automatically turns green to clear cars out of the turn lane so the trains can pass. So as the train moves down the street, the signals are choreographed to allow it to pass.

Obviously, one turn lane isn't wide enough so one lane of parking is sacrificed. Yes some people will holler about losing a dozen parking spots per block, but the benefit outweighs this. You never want to lose through lanes of traffic. You are right, it's not an option. But sacrificing parking is always an option. It doesn't have to be studied or require all that much community input. It's just eliminated. But removing lanes, or sharing lanes of traffic requires a lot more planning and clever signaling. The best usage is the center of the street since it receives the lightest traffic [[turning vehicles only) and the vehicles can directed when signaled. Plus you can place collapsable bollards in the median to discourage drivers from entering the center lane where no turning occurs, but permit emergency vehicles to enter the trackway if necessary.


This is more difficult to do in the right lane. If cars are attempting to park and merging in front of trains, the operator will be hitting the brakes alot. It's just like a bus.

Hopefully that answers the question.

In hindsight I had thought all along they were running center which is why I was a huge proponent of this line. But now I'm concerned and I think BRT would have been a better option since it accomplishes the same at a lower cost. At least it would had been a bit more flexible for expanding capacity or modifying travel-way in the future.

Oh well, I'm still going to ride it anyway. At least for the basic purpose hudkina described, it will get me from New Center to downtown when I'm visiting in town.

You can also eliminate left turns entirely by using a form of "Michigan lefts". You get in the right turn lane continue on to the next right turn [[the street after the one you want). You turn right there, go to the next block, turn right again, go one block to the street you want and turn right again. Now you are going in the direction you want on the street you want.

My problem with center running is getting large amounts of people across two or three lanes of traffic to the center safety island. That is why I think the rails should run in an alley or in the smaller street directly behind the major route.

Attachment 21418

[mwilbert]

My problem with center running is getting large amounts of people across two or three lanes of traffic to the center safety island. That is why I think the rails should run in an alley or in the smaller street directly behind the major route.

If you are claiming people can't figure out how to cross streets with medians, I think that is unlikely.

[bailey]

If you are claiming people can't figure out how to cross streets with medians, I think that is unlikely.

also problematic is using pictures of christmas shoppers lining the stop as an example of what M1 would look like on a daily basis. Maybe on a game day...and that is only if people haven't given up on it and just driven in and parked on a surface lot because it's the same amount of hassle.

[Hermod]

also problematic is using pictures of christmas shoppers lining the stop as an example of what M1 would look like on a daily basis. Maybe on a game day...and that is only if people haven't given up on it and just driven in and parked on a surface lot because it's the same amount of hassle.

OK, Harper street car during a normal rush hour:

Attachment 21425

You and DetroitNerd can lounge on the streetcar playing with your laptops while you whiz effortlessly to your destination.

[chicagoforlife]

I don't quite understand why private people are building a public transit line. Doesn't Detroit have a Transit Authority? I know Detroit has an extensive bus system.

I'm just confused because in Chicago the CTA runs both the trains and the buses.

[professorscott]

I don't quite understand why private people are building a public transit line. Doesn't Detroit have a Transit Authority? I know Detroit has an extensive bus system.

I'm just confused because in Chicago the CTA runs both the trains and the buses.

Thank the Gods; a reasonably easy question to answer.

A private nonprofit is going to build, and for a time operate, the streetcar line using a combination of public and private money. The RTA is brand new and, as yet, has no funding with which it can operate its own offices for very long, much yet transit. That'll come, but we aren't there yet.

There are three existing transit operators which might have been tapped to run the system:

1. DDOT is flat effing broke and has a history of running a crappy and underfunded system. It has never built any operational transit infrastructure and has very little credibility with the public. The last thing it built was the Rosa Parks Transit Center, too far from downtown to make it a reasonably convenient place, and go back and reread the articles about it shortly after it opened.

2. The People Mover runs a rail system, and it runs reasonably well; but the People Mover is funded largely by the City, which is broke [[arguably, bankrupt) and it wouldn't be responsible to ask the City to take on such an extra cost.

3. SMART is a well-run, though underfunded, bus system; but SMART's charter is that it should operate in cities and towns which pay for its service - and that excludes Detroit. SMART runs buses at peak commute times into Detroit for rider convenience, but it would be beyond SMART's charter to run a service entirely in Detroit [[or any opt-out community).

That being said, the idea is that eventually the RTA will run the streetcars, and probably much more than that.

[wolverine]

I don't quite understand why private people are building a public transit line. Doesn't Detroit have a Transit Authority? I know Detroit has an extensive bus system.

I'm just confused because in Chicago the CTA runs both the trains and the buses.

It will have an rta to oversee its operation. Nothing wrong at all with private contributions. Also the CTA receives a large share of funding from the state and federal government...$2.8 billion for this year alone. The system's operation is mostly covered by the CTA through fare revenues which are not part of capitol improvement. The funding for new rail lines, stations, rolling stock, and renovations are provided by state and federal taxpayers and a ton of odds and ends grants....and that's why an RTA is necessary so that there is a receiver of this money, not a bunch of investors.

Obviously the state of Michigan is not ready or willing to hand out that kind of money just for one year....yet. Someone must start the project.

It's no different than the CTA's roots where the L system was run by a ton of different private operators...hence all the legacy names they continue to use [[ex. The Ravenswood Line instead of the brown line). The money had to start from some company, or some individual to get it going. Eventually the companies went out of business and the system was combined under a public transit authority.

Eventually when this thing starts building, money from the state and feds will [[hopefully) come flowing in to fund additional lines.

[Hermod]

If you are claiming people can't figure out how to cross streets with medians, I think that is unlikely.

No, they figure it out quite easily. A two or three car magic choo choo pulls up to a safety island in the middle of Woodward. Two hundred people swarm across Woodward stopping traffic. They do not proceed down to the cross walk at the end of the block and wait for a "walk" signal from the traffic light.