I-94 Expansion Project [[Roadway to Detroit's Future)

[ghettopalmetto]

Man, you are so dense. We are trying to tell you this is about international trade and not some conspiracy to drive through Detroit faster and you just don't get it. You would kill all business around here by doing stupid shit like capping I-94 and putting a boulevard.

How did you figure out this was strictly about international trade? As if private citizens never use I-94 as a commuter route to speed their way through Detroit?

Instead of dropping $1 billion+ on this road-widening, let's build a freeway through your neighborhood. Then you can tell us how new many businesses crop up as a result of increased international trade.

Seems to me that people were screaming similar bloody murder when San Francisco threatened to demolish the Embarcadero Freeway after the 1989 Loma Prieta earthquake. The city was told that world-ending round-the-clock traffic jams were imminent. That business would come to a screeching halt. Turns out, most of that traffic simply "disappeared", and San Francisco's Embarcadero has seen new businesses crop up in the path of the old freeway, as it is a far more attractive place now.

[antongast]

I know full well that the bus is there for show. I also know that there is probably a need for that dependable crosstown bus. OR streetcar. There's a good place for it to run down, that service drive. Central city, from around Midtown, through the East and West side neighborhoods. That service drive and freeway would serve far more than your myopic vision would ever allow you to percieve.

There's already a crosstown bus. It runs down Warren and parts of Forest, from St. John's to Rouge Park. It has extremely heavy peak-hour ridership; I've been on it more than once where it's passed up large crowds of people waiting at stops because the bus already had 50-60 people crammed into it. What it needs is more funding to put more buses on the route, not a new service drive to run on.

[bugs1739]

Alot of people are fighting on this post not wanting a rebuilt I-94, instead the way it currently is. 20 years later what if a bridge collapses along this corridor, and kills several commuters. This is the case that happened back in 2007 in Minneapolis on the I-35W - poor mantenance and deterioration.

[Detroitnerd]

Alot of people are fighting on this post not wanting a rebuilt I-94, instead the way it currently is. 20 years later what if a bridge collapses along this corridor, and kills several commuters. This is the case that happened back in 2007 in Minneapolis on the I-35W - poor mantenance and deterioration.

Actually, what we mostly seem to be arguing against is the expansion plan, not maintenance.

[SteveJ]

How did you figure out this was strictly about international trade? As if private citizens never use I-94 as a commuter route to speed their way through Detroit?

Instead of dropping $1 billion+ on this road-widening, let's build a freeway through your neighborhood. Then you can tell us how new many businesses crop up as a result of increased international trade.

Seems to me that people were screaming similar bloody murder when San Francisco threatened to demolish the Embarcadero Freeway after the 1989 Loma Prieta earthquake. The city was told that world-ending round-the-clock traffic jams were imminent. That business would come to a screeching halt. Turns out, most of that traffic simply "disappeared", and San Francisco's Embarcadero has seen new businesses crop up in the path of the old freeway, as it is a far more attractive place now.

1. I told you its about international trade because its being used as a North-South Route to move products. I told you that Wisconsin is adding another lane on I-94 in 2016. I told you that the state is expanding the Blue Water Bridge plaza right now. I point out websites to educate you http://www.detroitchamber.com/compon...in-a-logistics

The youtube video from MDOT must use the world "commerce" 10 times.

You know what, they did build a freeway through my neighborhood. Used to be called 10 mile road and now its called I-696 and the area is doing good and people love hopping on that to get to work instead of 10 mile road. But I just don't think you're capable of understanding other people and their facts. Not really sure what else to do. Someone that was rational and not sounding like some right wing brick head would have understood it by now.

Please tell me what the fuck SF has to do with I-94 going to Port Huron.

[Detroitnerd]

1. I told you its about international trade because its being used as a North-South Route to move products. I told you that Wisconsin is adding another lane on I-94 in 2016. I told you that the state is expanding the Blue Water Bridge plaza right now. I point out websites to educate you http://www.detroitchamber.com/compon...in-a-logistics

The idea of you educating Ghettopalmetto is very amusing. Thanks for the funny post.

[Wesley Mouch]

Could be a part of it. Some of the bridges on I-94 could be too low for trucks, which would mean more trucks [[and particulate emissions) on a new, enlarged I-94.

Don't forget the road lobby. They make a bundle off it every time it gets rebuilt -- so why not demand it be much larger?

I think that's all very true. Especially about the road lobby. So how do we get them to understand the money to be made building transit lines?

[Gistok]

There's already a crosstown bus. It runs down Warren and parts of Forest, from St. John's to Rouge Park. It has extremely heavy peak-hour ridership; I've been on it more than once where it's passed up large crowds of people waiting at stops because the bus already had 50-60 people crammed into it. What it needs is more funding to put more buses on the route, not a new service drive to run on.

Actually there is a crosstown bus along I-94 that covers 1/3 of the route thru town along I-94. That is the Cadillac-Harper... which starts at St. John Hospital [[like the other one that follows Mack/Warren), goes north to Harper Ave and continues on until Gratiot [[Cadillac Blvd.). At that point it goes south and eventually ends up downtown. There used to be a Cadillac Express bus, which followed Harper to Gratiot, and then went down Gratiot non-stop.

But a cross town bus that continued along Harper Ave. or the I-94 service drive would tie in the north end of WSU, New Center and Henry Ford Hospital [[as well as all points west). However, there is a possible alternative route near where Harper ends... continue along Harper to the Poletown plant where it turns into Grand Blvd. and continue westward on that road until it turns to Tireman and takes you to the city limits.

Currently there are no crosstown buses between Mack/Warren in the south central city and McNichols in the northern part of the city. But the route I mentioned would not justify the need for a new service drive.

I think a compromise is in order... I'm for expanding the Ford to 4 lanes, but perhaps only between I-75 and I-96. On the east side I-94 is 4 lanes between I-75 and Mt. Elliot, and on the west side it's 4 lanes between I-96 and W. Grand Blvd. If they just expanded it to 4 lanes between the 3 freeway interchanges, [[without a service drive and no rebuild of the Lodge interchange) using cement side walls instead of grassy embankments.... then it would only cost a fraction of the $1 Billion + and likely not require any eminent domain...

GP and DN... would that be an acceptable alternative, if they spent only a fraction of the original estimate, plus bridge replacements?

[SteveJ]

The idea of you educating Ghettopalmetto is very amusing. Thanks for the funny post.

What a shame that all wisdom must die with you

[Detroitnerd]

What a shame that all wisdom must die with you

Or with anybody but you. GP has shown that he has a great deal of knowledge about such subjects as urban planning, transportation planning, and what's going on in other cities. By comparison you ... do not seem as qualified.

[Detroitnerd]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1l8IJhH7t70

[townonenorth]

For somebody who seems at least familiar with highway projects, I wonder why you're not familiar with high speeds tending to create greater metro dispersal, which weds people more closely to their cars, as transit requires density. It's OK. You don't have to understand what you're trying to debate, I guess, as long as you're descending to ad hominem-style assaults on my reputation and sanity. Yeah, that wins you some brownie points for sure. <eyeroll>


Actually, the I think the freeway would be a bad place for transit. Transit demands and creates density. Why would you want to have your "density" in a place where several hundred feet on one side are taken up by roadway? Wouldn't you want your transit-oriented development to create as much dense, taxable development as possible, instead of having one side be developed and the other side off-limits? See what I'm saying here? Or are you busy devising your next ad hominem-style kiss-off?

Right. Make the Citizens of Detroit try to get to their jobs at Metro, or even at Wayne State for that matter, down an antiquated, overused expressway that CAN be fixed to modern standards. So the density you require isn't anywhere around there, huh? I thought transit BROUGHT density, no matter where you put it??? Transit generates development, right? You should be more consistent. Of course that could be an an indicator of an irrational outlook on life. You should get that checked.

You always come in and puff your chest out, shoot your mouth off, and think that because you declare something, it is true.

Sound familiar?

[SteveJ]

Or with anybody but you. GP has shown that he has a great deal of knowledge about such subjects as urban planning, transportation planning, and what's going on in other cities. By comparison you ... do not seem as qualified.

My specialty is traffic engineering and I can school you or GP on the AASHTO Green Book. So don't even go there about capacity and bullshit.

[antongast]

Actually there is a crosstown bus along I-94 that covers 1/3 of the route thru town along I-94. That is the Cadillac-Harper... which starts at St. John Hospital [[like the other one that follows Mack/Warren), goes north to Harper Ave and continues on until Gratiot [[Cadillac Blvd.). At that point it goes south and eventually ends up downtown. There used to be a Cadillac Express bus, which followed Harper to Gratiot, and then went down Gratiot non-stop.

The Cadillac-Harper isn't a crosstown route.

But a cross town bus that continued along Harper Ave. or the I-94 service drive would tie in the north end of WSU, New Center and Henry Ford Hospital [[as well as all points west). However, there is a possible alternative route near where Harper ends... continue along Harper to the Poletown plant where it turns into Grand Blvd. and continue westward on that road until it turns to Tireman and takes you to the city limits.

There's already a Tireman bus. The Grand Belt bus used to run through New Center and past Henry Ford Hospital out to McGraw, and now it doesn't. Why? Because we keep expanding roads and cutting funding from our transit system. Last I heard Bing was trying to squeeze another $10 million out of DDOT, so maybe we're about to lose another route. Hey, nobody needs the Oakland or the Russell, right?

Currently there are no crosstown buses between Mack/Warren in the south central city and McNichols in the northern part of the city.

What's the Plymouth-Caniff, chopped liver? Even the Chicago-Davison runs as far east as Joseph Campau.

[ghettopalmetto]

My specialty is traffic engineering and I can school you or GP on the AASHTO Green Book. So don't even go there about capacity and bullshit.

Before you get too high-and-mighty, I also have a degree in civil engineering, am a licensed Professional Engineer in seven states, and understand traffic engineering. Let me see if I can summarize:

Traffic counts, plug-and-chug through the formula and...Oops! Better add lanes!

Did I miss anything?

Does I-94 need resurfacing? Yes. Do the bridges need repair? Of course. Do we need to spend $1 billion+ to design and construct retaining walls and seize privately-owned property just so we can add additional lanes of rush hour congestion? Absolutely not. Have you ever seen the 12-lane I-270 in Montgomery County, Maryland? Have you experienced the thrill of a watching-paint-dry rush hour in Atlanta? Have you sat parked on the TWENTY-LANE Highway 401 outside Toronto? Induced demand is real, folks. This proposed expansion isn't going to "fix" a damned thing, primarily because it NEVER does. It's like fixing obesity by undoing your belt. There has never been a freeway expansion in the United States that has "solved" congestion. Hell, back in the 1950s, the highway engineers ever-so-smugly predicted that construction of the Chrysler Freeway would permanently solve congestion in Detroit. How has that panned out?

...and the big kicker for me is the three-lane service drives. You don't see those in any other American city. How in the hell does MDOT get FHWA money???

FWIW, I-90 through downtown Cleveland [[also a big-time trucking route of national importance) has a NINETY-degree turn [[known as Dead Man's Curve) at which traffic is required to slow down to 30 miles per hour. It seems to work okay. I wouldn't lose too much sleep if cars are only able to rocket through central Detroit at 65 mph instead of 75 mph.

If you're worried about international trade, SteveJ, is there any reason why trucks couldn't be banned on I-94 between I-96 and Gratiot, not unlike a No-HC route? One would think that could free up a little room for leadfoot-powered passenger cars.

[townonenorth]

Before you get too high-and-mighty, I also have a degree in civil engineering, am a licensed Professional Engineer in seven states, and understand traffic engineering. Let me see if I can summarize:

Traffic counts, plug-and-chug through the formula and...Oops! Better add lanes!

Did I miss anything?

Does I-94 need resurfacing? Yes. Do the bridges need repair? Of course. Do we need to spend $1 billion+ to design and construct retaining walls and seize privately-owned property just so we can add additional lanes of rush hour congestion? Absolutely not. Have you ever seen the 12-lane I-270 in Montgomery County, Maryland? Have you experienced the thrill of a watching-paint-dry rush hour in Atlanta? Have you sat parked on the TWENTY-LANE Highway 401 outside Toronto? Induced demand is real, folks. This proposed expansion isn't going to "fix" a damned thing, primarily because it NEVER does. It's like fixing obesity by undoing your belt. There has never been a freeway expansion in the United States that has "solved" congestion. Hell, back in the 1950s, the highway engineers ever-so-smugly predicted that construction of the Chrysler Freeway would permanently solve congestion in Detroit. How has that panned out?

...and the big kicker for me is the three-lane service drives. You don't see those in any other American city. How in the hell does MDOT get FHWA money???

FWIW, I-90 through downtown Cleveland [[also a big-time trucking route of national importance) has a NINETY-degree turn [[known as Dead Man's Curve) at which traffic is required to slow down to 30 miles per hour. It seems to work okay. I wouldn't lose too much sleep if cars are only able to rocket through central Detroit at 65 mph instead of 75 mph.

If you're worried about international trade, SteveJ, is there any reason why trucks couldn't be banned on I-94 between I-96 and Gratiot, not unlike a No-HC route? One would think that could free up a little room for leadfoot-powered passenger cars.

It DID solve congestion in Detroit. Detroit isn't congested anymore, I-75 is. You are free to travel the surface streets at will, even through rush hour. Ah, the miracles of traffic engineering.

Remember, Detroit congestion problems were on surface roads. Thus the freeways were built.

[ghettopalmetto]

It DID solve congestion in Detroit. Detroit isn't congested anymore, I-75 is. You are free to travel the surface streets at will, even through rush hour. Ah, the miracles of traffic engineering.

Remember, Detroit congestion problems were on surface roads. Thus the freeways were built.

Right. All it took for the Chrysler to "work" was waiting for the city to empty out.

Some people just know everything, don't they?

[Huggybear]

Sorry I am not a civil engineer or an urban planner [[real or wannabe), but I will provide my own perspective. I llve in Detroit and often travel I-94 for business, both on weekdays and weekends. I often enter it via I-75 or the Lodge, and whether you go west or east, the stretch that is a proposed expansion path is a complete mess. I'm not a huge fan of tearing things apart, but this is a project whose time has come.

Bad design. I-94 in Detroit wasn't the best-designed road - and it's not that the exit ramps are too short or that you sometimes exit left. Rather, it has poor drainage, poor grading, minimal soundproofing, and awkward exits. But the thing that takes it over the top is its utter incapacity to deal with contingencies like breakdowns, accidents, fires, ice slicks, massive potholes, and routine bridge maintenance. Even if the number of cars were held constant, this road could use another lane to deal with these everyday problems. I have been in tons of traffic jams caused by these things, and they don't only slow things down - an accident that covers two lanes shuts this freeway down - because there is no way to simultaneously move traffic and emergency vehicles. And these incidents - occurring almost daily - will make you late for the plane. The situation is greatly exacerbated when short merges with other freeways take up one of your three lanes. There is nothing noble in this, and this is one thing that does not happen on four-lane roads like I-96.

A huge right of way. Watching the MDOT video, I don't see the massive path of destruction that we were promised [[not even the massacre of the 4th Street neightborhood). In fact, the flyover [[and consultation with Google Maps) shows that the existing ROW is huge. So the "destructive to businesses" thing seems pretty specious, unless someone wants to point out specific, worthwhile things that are going away [[and I am not moved in the least by the removal of the largely bombed-out houses along a straightened service drive where the freeway crosses between the Lodge and I-75). In fact, listending to the glowing descriptions of the service drive, I wonder if people are confusing I-94 with I-75.

Bypassing. One of the most bizarre arguments i saw on this thread was that we don't need service drives because people can [[and should) just learn to drive around. This argument is meritless. A contiguous service drive gives a bypass route in the event of construction, flooding, or a serious mishap - and the contiguous service drive itself is being established in one of the worst stretches of the current freeway. It's asinine to suggest that people who are unfamiliar with the area skirting I-94 should just "learn to cope" with driving in the areas where the service drive is discontinuous, particularly at night.

Bridges to where? This consternation about the consolidation of John R, Brush and Beaubien into one bridge can only be conflating the crossings of I-75 with the crossings of I-94. If you don't have firsthand opportunity to drive this area [[or are too lazy to look at an aerial), I'll spare you the heartache: there is nothing on the north side but industrial [[and former industrial) properties. Consolidating to one bridge is not "cutting apart a neighborhood" when one side isn't a neighborhood. I can see how Ferry would be sacrificed to a rationalized interchange, but the Piquette bridge basically connects two scrap yards. In sum, a lot of this is complaining about bridges to nowhere.

The giant sucking sound. Though I do not have reason to argue with the Malthusian expansion of car traffic to fit the space alotted, I will comment that in 2012, it sounds almost idiotic to argue that a wider road will somehow contribute to the decline of Detroit. That damage was done 30-50 years ago, moving trucks aren't stopped by road size, and Detroit has indeed emptied out. What we have now is a choke point in the middle of Detroit where I-94 intersects with I-96, the Lodge, and I-75. So far, maintaining the status quo has not preserved or promoted any surface activity - and at the same time, it has not provided any corresponding benefit. In fact, it not only exacerbates jams on other roads; it also makes life unpleasant for residents who have to use it.

Get over the nostalgia. I was old enough to drive when the Davison was a two-lane deathtrap. It was still an interesting artifact of the early 20th century and had some interesting design details. I think they should have kept it as-is, especially since Chrysler had moved by the time it was actually expanded. I-94, by contrast, has no such charm. It is generic, sprawling, and ugly. It is a horrific entry path for visitors to Detroit and a demoralizing reminder to Detroiters of the lack of infrastructure investment.

In sum, I'm not convinced that this expansion is a bad idea.

HB

[Wesley Mouch]

It DID solve congestion in Detroit. Detroit isn't congested anymore, I-75 is. You are free to travel the surface streets at will, even through rush hour. Ah, the miracles of traffic engineering.

Remember, Detroit congestion problems were on surface roads. Thus the freeways were built.

This man has a good memory. In the days before freeway, Detroit surface streets were congested, and Detroit had great traffic engineering.

[East Detroit]

Why wasn't DetroitYes up in arms when 20 Mile was paved 5 lanes each way? Or when 696 on the West side had fancy bridges with individually laid brickwork installed?

I suspect many of the detractors do not ride I-94 in rush hour. 3 lanes combined with bridges about to fall on your head, no left shoulders [[was it originally 2 lanes?) meaning a minor accident equals backups for miles/hours, left entrances/exits [[effectively causing 3 lanes to become 1 lane that you can travel without interruption on IF you're lucky) and short entrance/exits using up one lane for backups, equals a consistent ZERO miles per hour multiple segment experience every single day.

People don't speak up when we add concrete to 50 Mile... but up in arms about maintaining and upgrading what already exists.

[313WX]

Why wasn't DetroitYes up in arms when 20 Mile was paved 5 lanes each way? Or when 696 on the West side had fancy bridges with individually laid brickwork installed?

Perhaps it was because DetroitYes hardly existed at the time both projects happened...

[313WX]

Right. All it took for the Chrysler to "work" was waiting for the city to empty out.

Exactly...

Meanwhile, where the poulation has shifted to, the surface streets in spite of the highways are all a hot mess in Oakland and Northern Macomb County anytime of the day, and they're pure hell during rush hour.

But since the traffic is at 15 Mile and Orchard Lake Road and not at Mack and Chene, then it's ok.

[ordinary]

I only hope that I am retired by the time this project starts.

Good post huggybear.

[Brian1979]

It is really crazy to see people against expanding I-94. For the most part this freeway is outdated and overcrowded, expanding it will for sure ease traffic congestion. It seems like people that are against it have never driven on I-94 during rush hour, I'm happy I have a GPS with traffic on it because I was traveling eastbound along I-94 at about 4:30pm coming from Metro Airport one day over the summer, my desination was downtown Detroit. My GPS instructed me to take the Southfield to I-75 NB and into downtown Detroit because of traffic congestion on I-94. I did that and there wasn't as much traffic on I-75 as there was on I-94 and I already knew about the congestion during rush hour between the Jeffries and Chrysler. That worked for me but not everyone has a GPS like this and won't know about the congestion on I-94 until they are already in it unless they drive this stretch every single day and know about it like I did. This is about International trade not driving through Detroit at high rated speeds, easing congestion is one thing to make the Ford a better through route in Detroit. This is an Interstate highway not Greenfield Road or Van Dyke. As a matter of fact it shouldn't be expanded to 4 lanes but rather to 5 lanes in each direction. It's not local traffic we're talking about it's through traffic that needs to get into Detroit and out of Detroit. I-94 should be 5 lanes in each direction from I-275 to Conner and anyone that says it shouldn't doesn't know much about moving traffic through a large metro area.

Another stretch of highway that severely needs an expansion is U.S. 23 between Ann Arbor and Flint.

[Brian1979]

Not to mention the amount of cars and trucks sitting on the expressway idoling and thus wasting gas. Yeah I'd say everything with I-94 is all ok and doesn't need to be expanded to allow an easier flow of traffic. The problem with I-94 is the left lane exits especially at the Lodge interchange and lack of acceleration lanes. This highway is very outdated and in major need of repair, it's mindboggling how stubborn people are being because it's going to knock out a few houses many of which are most likely abandoned in the first place just to save a few houses. Interstate highways criss cross every major city in America, why does Detroit need to be so different?