Feds, Snyder kill Woodward Light Rail Line

[313WX]

This could be the first step of a much better and serious effort toward a stronger core city , I feel The city of Detroit and it's people won't really benefit from this, but once again the outer suburbs.

Well unfortunately the outer suburbs is where the money and influence is at.

If one want things to go their way, and prefer if things do without going gray-haired fighting people who will never in a million years listen to their POV, then they should follow your foot steps and leave.

From what I can see, there are tons of Metropolitan areas that will welcome them with open arms.

[Gistok]

So when are all you people who are so angry you could spit going to have a protest march? Bitching on the internet will only get you so far, you need to take it to the street. You could do a Love Train conga line down the middle of Woodward.

No, it would have to be something different... they do that one every year....
http://michpics.wordpress.com/2009/0...de-in-detroit/

[bailey]

No, it would have to be something different... they do that one every year....
http://michpics.wordpress.com/2009/0...de-in-detroit/

wow. just wow.

[animatedmartian]

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...FREE/111219958

Dan Gilbert and company aren't giving up so easily. They're still going to try and build the line from Downtown to New Center.

[corktownyuppie]

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...FREE/111219958

Dan Gilbert and company aren't giving up so easily. They're still going to try and build the line from Downtown to New Center.

I think they'll get it done, too.

[bailey]

I think they'll get it done, too.

It's their money to piss away, but really.. Gilbertonians want a side running tram that runs in traffic. They threw a hissy fit, threatened to take their money off the table and got the whole project moved to the DEGC to MAKE SURE it's side running, its in traffic and stops 18 times in 3 miles. This is is better than a bus how?

[corktownyuppie]

It's their money to piss away, but really.. Gilbertonians want a side running tram that runs in traffic. They threw a hissy fit, threatened to take their money off the table and got the whole project moved to the DEGC to MAKE SURE it's side running, its in traffic and stops 18 times in 3 miles. This is is better than a bus how?

I'm not saying that it's better or worse than a bus.

[bailey]

I'm not saying that it's better or worse than a bus.

Ok..well I will. I say the M-1 plan is WORSE than a bus because it will effectively doom any "goodwill" towards LRT expansion. It will only get use on game days and events downtown as a parking shuttle and then the majority of those using it will "tsk tsk tsk" over how it "doesn't go anywhere", gets stuck in traffic just like a bus, has stops that are within shouting distance of one another so it takes forever to go the stupid 3 miles, and is just like the people mover-- a pointless waste.

[Detroitdave]

BRT is DOA. Snyder, LaHood and Bing need to go to Pontiac and have a sit-down with L. Brooks Patterson. He needs to tell them why a regional transit authority will never fly in Southeastern Michigan. Well, I get to explain the reason again.

BRT will not work because the "regional transit authority" will need people to voluntary park their cars to ride "buses" well "high-speed buses." This will not happen because people have an negative stigmatization when it comes to Metro Detroit buses. Let's see: buses run behind schedule and unruly people ride the buses can make people hold their noses.

In Detroit, the only people who ride buses are the one unable to drive a car. Same with Oakland and Macomb Counties with SMART. No one is going to volunteer to park their car to ride a bus so why would someone like Patterson would be willing to go along with a RTA when he believes his citizens, well the citizens that own automobiles would never ride the buses.

Somehow, I see Snyder getting disappointed once again by his own party.

You hit this RIGHT on the head ! Anyone that knows anything about Detroit history and has/have lived here for any time, knows this is true .If you didn't have to ride a slow bus with "unruly" people would you ? If you think for one sec people out in Plymouth, Westland,Troy, West Bloomfield, Livonia , Warren, Sterling Heights ,hell let's just call it ,anyone with a car in Oakland County, or Western Wayne, or Macomb County would step foot on a bus headed in or out of Detroit, I got swamp land in phoenix .Honestly the only way you would EVER get any of those folks on a "high speed bus" is, if it went from their front door straight to work, without any stop and right back home when they were ready to go home !
We know the only folks that would have to ride "high speed buses" will and they wont cover the cost in the long run ,hell since you going to go broke anyway what's 10 million a year ? hey it worked for the people mover for 30 years !
At least start building on a system your kids or grandkids will thank you for years from .
It wasn't cheap when "we" helped NYC , Chicago , SF, Boston, LA ,build theirs and it ain't going to get any cheaper ! I don't know what Detroit is waiting for ? if it doesn't happen now it NEVER WILL , in anyone life time that is reading this .
It ain't cheap , but neither college .

[Wesley Mouch]

You hit this RIGHT on the head ! Anyone that knows anything about Detroit history and has/have lived here for any time, knows this is true .If you didn't have to ride a slow bus with "unruly" people would you ? If you think for one sec people out in Plymouth, Westland,Troy, West Bloomfield, Livonia , Warren, Sterling Heights ,hell let's just call it ,anyone with a car in Oakland County, or Western Wayne, or Macomb County would step foot on a bus headed in or out of Detroit, I got swamp land in phoenix .Honestly the only way you would EVER get any of those folks on a "high speed bus" is, if it went from their front door straight to work, without any stop and right back home when they were ready to go home !
We know the only folks that would have to ride "high speed buses" will and they wont cover the cost in the long run ,hell since you going to go broke anyway what's 10 million a year ? hey it worked for the people mover for 30 years !
At least start building on a system your kids or grandkids will thank you for years from .
It wasn't cheap when "we" helped NYC , Chicago , SF, Boston, LA ,build theirs and it ain't going to get any cheaper ! I don't know what Detroit is waiting for ? if it doesn't happen now it NEVER WILL , in anyone life time that is reading this .
It ain't cheap , but neither college .

Nice rant -- and I agree that federal funding seems to avoid Detroit these days -- but...

What makes you think that Light Rail will be squeaky-clean and well-run? When the very busses run by the same people are the rolling-plague described?

[Anonymous]

Well damn, Detroit ain't gonna grow up in my lifetime. And I'm damn sure not about to raise my kids as Chicagoans.

Any suggestions for a place for the wife and I to set our roots? SF? Denver?

[ProudMidwesterner]

Well damn, Detroit ain't gonna grow up in my lifetime. And I'm damn sure not about to raise my kids as Chicagoans.

Any suggestions for a place for the wife and I to set our roots? SF? Denver?

If you want to stay in the Midwest, Minneapolis/St. Paul. For smaller cities, Indianapolis or Columbus. I'm no fan of the Coasts and Denver is nice but too isolated. But then again, I can't wait to move to Chicago, so my word may not be the best.

[animatedmartian]

Ok..well I will. I say the M-1 plan is WORSE than a bus because it will effectively doom any "goodwill" towards LRT expansion. It will only get use on game days and events downtown as a parking shuttle and then the majority of those using it will "tsk tsk tsk" over how it "doesn't go anywhere", gets stuck in traffic just like a bus, has stops that are within shouting distance of one another so it takes forever to go the stupid 3 miles, and is just like the people mover-- a pointless waste.

Because a similar circle that is 3 miles wide connecting two different areas is just as pointless? In that case, Chicago might as well tear down the loop right now.

[fryar]

That's really too bad!

Count me among those who are now a lot less bullish on Detroit [[and on their chances of living here one day). Without the development I anticipated would occur around the M-1, Detroit is a lot less appealing.

I certainly hope they do a whiz-bang implementation of BRT. Maybe I am applying my own knee-jerk broad-stroke assessment about the dominant philosophy in Southeast Michigan - Corktownyuppie sketched that out very nicely, thank you - but I'm certainly concerned that those who killed this project don't really know or want to know how to do BRT "right." And that's probably an understatement.

At least I can apparently have some hope that the "parking shuttle" can be implemented, so that at least there may be [[depending on the implementation) some form of transit of-choice between downtown and midtown.

But the "leadership" still does not get it.

[Flintoid]

I've had a few days to mull this over, and the more I think of it the more I feel we are overreacting on a major level. Why is 9.3 miles of rail preferable to 110 miles of BRT [[basically the same as LRT, just without as high of a level of economic development)? People who say that all their hopes for the city are dashed due to the failure of 9.3 miles of rail are either delusional or exaggerating, or both. When it comes down to it, you want transit to get you from A to B quickly, and as promising as light rail was, unless A to B was Hart Plaza to Ferndale, that was not foreseeable in the near future. Now we have a system that could get you from downtown to dearborn, metro airport, mt clemens, M59, and all of the areas in between. From a purely transit aspect, BRT seems like a considerably better idea. And who knows,if this RTA gets approved, maybe they can pick up LRT later on. In the meantime [[and I say this as a current college student looking to move to an urban area after graduation) this increases my chances of moving to Detroit, it does not dampen them. Now I know that [[if this happens) I can actually get to somewhere not on Woodward without my car, or I could actually get to the suburbs without my car. I am very excited for what this can be, and with regional support, we can finally have a reliable mass transit system.

[Detroitnerd]

I've had a few days to mull this over, and the more I think of it the more I feel we are overreacting ...

Um, isn't that how you felt in the first place?

We're not overreacting. Light rail makes a HUGE difference. If you don't think much of the difference, you just don't understand mass transit very well.

And the people leaving the region year after year? They DO understand transit well.

[Wesley Mouch]

I've had a few days to mull this over, and the more I think of it the more I feel we are overreacting on a major level. Why is 9.3 miles of rail preferable to 110 miles of BRT [[basically the same as LRT, just without as high of a level of economic development)? People who say that all their hopes for the city are dashed due to the failure of 9.3 miles of rail are either delusional or exaggerating, or both. When it comes down to it, you want transit to get you from A to B quickly, and as promising as light rail was, unless A to B was Hart Plaza to Ferndale, that was not foreseeable in the near future. Now we have a system that could get you from downtown to dearborn, metro airport, mt clemens, M59, and all of the areas in between. From a purely transit aspect, BRT seems like a considerably better idea. And who knows,if this RTA gets approved, maybe they can pick up LRT later on. In the meantime [[and I say this as a current college student looking to move to an urban area after graduation) this increases my chances of moving to Detroit, it does not dampen them. Now I know that [[if this happens) I can actually get to somewhere not on Woodward without my car, or I could actually get to the suburbs without my car. I am very excited for what this can be, and with regional support, we can finally have a reliable mass transit system.

Well said.

When you have a problem, you must solve it with tools that are available and appropriate to you. Light Rail was the best and only solution for a long time. But today there are alternatives. Look at Montreal with rubber wheels in the 70s, I think. And how about Seattle. Their downtown underground tunnel accomodates both their 'rail' system and busses on the same right-of-way. San Diego's and St. Louis's light rail uses cars for smaller than NYC or Toronto. They're more the size of the articulated busses in Vancouver or Portland.

Rubber vs. Steel

Rails vs. Pavement

Non of it matters. Flintoid has it right.

[Flintoid]

Detroitnerd, maybe 100 miles of light rail matter, but that was never on the table. We are talking about 9.3 miles of light rail or 110 miles of BRT. If we had a planned system of LRT with multiple lines, than this is an entirely different story and this outrage would be more than justified. But we didn't. We had one line from the river to Ferndale and that was it. If you didn't have business on Woodward, this didn't affect you. And let me tell you as a college student looking for that urban excitement, we don't really care if its LRT or BRT, we just dont want to have to use our cars.Woodward Rail was not going to solve that and trust me, it would not have attracted that many people to the city. BRT provides that option now and if LRT is in our future, then we will have a body used to running a larger system. In the meantime though, logic [[serving 110 miles) must win out over passion [[being attatched to a 9.3 miles). The future for Downtown/Midtown/Corktown etc. is still very bright. Woodward Rail would have brought about as many people in as the People Mover.

[Detroitnerd]

Rubber vs. Steel

Rails vs. Pavement

Non of it matters.

Tell that to the developers who are waiting for steel rails in the ground before they invest their billions of dollars.

Why would any developer trust that you're going to commit to bus service. Because you painted a bus lane on the ground? Because we in metro Detroit are bound by our word and promise to keep rubber running on this pavement regularly? Hahaha.

Steel rails in the ground let developers know that you're serious about providing high-quality transit of choice that has a higher carrying capacity than buses, and then they open their checkbooks and start developing and refurbishing.

Without that, it's just a promise from yahoos in a place that has more failed leadership, broken promises and unbridgable divides than any other metro in the country.

But, if instead of building a starter line [[generally how serious transit gets built in this country, bit by bit) you'd rather build a much more expensive system that has higher operating costs and which has never been considered the serious centerpiece of a transit-building plan, I would seriously like some of what you're smoking. It must be powerful stuff.

[mwilbert]

I can tell you why I have a bad feeling about it.

1) I don't believe that 110 miles of anything I would call BRT will be built. BRT isn't ten times cheaper than LRT if you do it properly, and we didn't really ever manage to finance the LRT. If it turns out that people get their acts together, put together an actual RTA and build an real BRT system, I will feel much better.

2) I believe the main chance for Detroit to increase the portion of the city [[and the metro area, for that matter) which is attractive to people with other options is to concentrate development along the Woodward corridor. The LRT plan fitted in with that vision. The BRT plan, not really.

3) The whole thing, from the M-1 plan to the fizzle at the end just demonstrates the difficulties involved in getting anything done in the area that requires any kind of cooperation between governmental entities.

[Detroitnerd]

Detroitnerd, maybe 100 miles of light rail matter, but that was never on the table. We are talking about 9.3 miles of light rail or 110 miles of BRT.

How do you think light-rail systems are built? One at a time. Starting with the most used corridors, such as Woodward, Michigan, Gratiot, and then extended from there. No city has simply designed a mass transit system all at once and then implemented it.

The effects of light rail are such that they are felt beyond where they run. They have a larger jobs multiplier than buses. They raise the profile of the entire region. They spur billions of dollars in development. They create dense development, drawing in more people to live and work near the area served. They take cars off the road, freeing up the expressways for through traffic and trucks. They offer and example for future expansion because they prove what a good investment they were quickly.

And a bus-only system doesn't do any of that. It moves poor people around.

[Flintoid]

Detroitnerd, you're maturity says all anyone needs to know about attempting to discuss with you. Can we get someone else who wont imply that anyone who disagrees with them is on drugs? I feel that will be more productive.

[Detroitnerd]

Detroitnerd, you're maturity says all anyone needs to know about attempting to discuss with you. Can we get someone else who wont imply that anyone who disagrees with them is on drugs? I feel that will be more productive.

I didn't say that they were on drugs. I said they must be on really GOOD drugs.

Anyway, if this little joke provides you with an excuse to overlook the 90 percent I've written that does not joke, go ahead and ignore the facts. Then you get to feel both mature and engage in willful ignorance. I always thought that maturity and a willful ignorance were diametrically opposed, but go ahead...

[Anonymous]

If you want to stay in the Midwest, Minneapolis/St. Paul. For smaller cities, Indianapolis or Columbus. I'm no fan of the Coasts and Denver is nice but too isolated. But then again, I can't wait to move to Chicago, so my word may not be the best.

Given that home [[Metro Detroit) won't likely meet our standards over the next few decades -- low as we're willing to make them in order to actually, you know, be home -- the whole point is to leave the Midwest so we're not contributing to a regional economy that competes with Metro Detroit. There is always a pang of guilt when I consider that I'm helping Chicago charge forward while stuff like, well, this transit snafu happens back home.

The next time real transit comes up to bat will be innings from now, when I'm in my 50's or 60's. Perhaps I can be a snow-bird then...

In any case, Denver seems nice from visiting and friends I know who've moved there. Same with Portland. Wifey's a native Texan and is not down for anywhere that's not progressive [[or "backwards" as she'd put it), so a lot of the Old South is out.

It's almost impossible to put into words how much of a dagger to the heart of long-term growth that this is and how personally depressing/sobering it is. We'd actually begun scouting for homes in Boston-Edison and Palmer Woods to bide our time before growth kicked in along the corridor to see just in case we could snatch one a house up in that area once shovels actually hit the ground for this project.

Signed,

A Michigan undergrad with two grad degrees from Northwestern and a good job, with a wife with an undergrad science degree from Texas A&M and a grad degree from UVa who also has a good job, each of whom are just dying to one day move to Michigan [[home, for me, but proximity to family for both of us both for personal familiarity and for help in raising our kids) but are stuck with Chicago for the time being and at lunch today discussed the fact that we'll probably never be able to move back to Michigan because the City and its suburbs can't play nice like adults.

We are the brain drain, probably along with dozens or hundreds of other people that post or lurk here. Shame on everyone that played a negative role in this.

[Flintoid]

I didn't say that they were on drugs. I said they must be on really GOOD drugs.

Anyway, if this little joke provides you with an excuse to overlook the 90 percent I've written that does not joke, go ahead and ignore the facts. Then you get to feel both mature and engage in willful ignorance. I always thought that maturity and a willful ignorance were diametrically opposed, but go ahead...

I am not engaging in willful ignorance, in fact I listed above an entire paragraph detailing logical reasons to support BRT [[surprised you forgot that so quickly). Still, suggesting that anyone who disagrees with you must be high says all anyone needs to know.