Amazon Looking for a new HQ - Detroit-Windsor Bid Rejected

**masterblaster** · October-13-17, 09:33 AM

Originally Posted by 313WX

Agreed on all points.

I also live in Atlanta now. And for those who think Atlanta is too suburban, they obviously haven't been to / through the city in the past 10 years. An impressive amount of urban development and infill has taken place since then.

As far as the traffic, I will say, while coming from the northside can be rough, commutes from the SW side are a breeze [[better than Detroit's rush hour commutes even). For those who live in Douglasville or Newnan, it only takes 30 minutes to get in/out of the city. You don't encounter any real congestion until you get to the connector. Given all of the rural land along the I-20 and I-85 corridor, I suspect that's where the spinoff development would occur if Atlanta landed HQ2.

The only reason I can figure for people on this forum writing Atlanta off is ignorance or hate [[Atlanta is a sprawly black mecca that works, Detroit is a sprawly black mecca that doesn't).

If Amazon's priority is to establish a campus in an urban environment, I don't think that the poorly regarded, rural south suburbs of Atlanta would be that appealing. Supposedly downtown Atlanta is not all that vibrant, so I would think they would look into downtown.

Suburban Northern Virginia is a wealthy, growing area, but it is quite suburban. I don't see how it would fit the bill, unless they try to sell Arlington as an urban destination or sell its proximity to Washington, DC

**313WX** · October-13-17, 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by masterblaster

If Amazon's priority is to establish a campus in an urban environment, I don't think that the poorly regarded, rural south suburbs of Atlanta would be that appealing. Supposedly downtown Atlanta is not all that vibrant, so I would think they would look into downtown.

Suburban Northern Virginia is a wealthy, growing area, but it is quite suburban. I don't see how it would fit the bill, unless they try to sell Arlington as an urban destination or sell its proximity to Washington, DC

I'm thinking of Amazon employees who have families and will want to reside in the suburbs. If you plop Amazon in downtown Atlanta, South Fulton, Coweta / Fayette Counties and Douglas Counties will look mighty attractive to them, versus being stuck in traffic coming from Cobb / Gwinnett Counties.

And frankly, no one from most cities outside the NE and West Coast is in a position to talk down about Atlanta's lack of vibrancy.

**masterblaster** · October-13-17, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

And frankly, no one from most cities outside the NE and West Coast is in a position to talk down about Atlanta's lack of vibrancy.

That is why I said, "SUPPOSEDLY". From what I gather from occasionally reading the Atlanta city-data forum, their downtown is a work in a progress, maybe only slightly better than Detroit. For instance, the struggling Underground Atlanta that I believe closed recently. Midtown Atlanta is different story.

There are several other cities in interior of the country that have growing economies and vibrant downtowns: Minneapolis/St. Paul, Indianapolis, Columbus, Louisville, Nashville, Chicago, Birmingham & Denver.

**Bham1982** · October-13-17, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by masterblaster

There are several other cities in interior of the country that have growing economies and vibrant downtowns: Minneapolis/St. Paul, Indianapolis, Columbus, Louisville, Nashville, Chicago, Birmingham & Denver.

Excepting Chicago, these are all horrible downtowns. You want downtown Detroit to look like Columbus? Have you actually been to Columbus?

And Chicago has the worst economy of any major city in the U.S.

I'm still not getting why half this thread is praising Atlanta [[which is indeed booming) when Atlanta is the sprawliest/least urban metro of its size on the planet. Atlanta is the poster child for sprawl and suburbanization, which [[I thought) was generally considered a bad thing on DYes.

**Gistok** · October-13-17, 02:07 PM

Well I rarely agree with Bham1982.... but Atlanta proper [[472K pop.) constitutes just 8.2% of the Atlanta metro area [[5,710K pop.) .... "sprawl central"!!

**iheartthed** · October-13-17, 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

Well I rarely agree with Bham1982.... but Atlanta proper [[472K pop.) constitutes just 8.2% of the Atlanta metro area [[5,710K pop.) .... "sprawl central"!!

It is rare that I say this but... Atlanta's sprawl is worse than Detroit's! It is poster child for sprawl.

**bust** · October-13-17, 03:56 PM

Apologies to anyone who took offense to my opinion that a location in Atlanta would be seen by Amazon as a strike against recruiting top talent. As always, I could be wrong. But my opinion is not coming from a position of complete ignorance. I have immediate family there, one who graduated from Georgia Tech. He works there in the technology industry. However it remains my opinion that the technology labor pool in Atlanta is relatively small and not focused on the kinds of software, systems, and network engineers and managers with that experience Amazon needs.

As I mentioned earlier, Amazon doesn't hire many people right out of school. They want people with a proven professional track record. Senior, not junior level employees, are by far their biggest need. How many companies are there in Atlanta where the specific kinds of experience Amazon is looking for can be gained? How many top technical engineers and managers do they currently employ? I suggest not nearly enough to suit Amazon's needs.

If Amazon picks Atlanta in terms of recruiting talent they'd be in a similar situation as they'd be in in Detroit. Technical talent there exits, but not much that directly applies to Amazon's business needs. They'd have to recruit people from elsewhere who are willing to relocate. And I don't think moving to Atlanta would be as easy a sell as they're used to in Seattle, or it would be if they chose a location in any of a number of other cities [[Denver, Chicago, Boston, Newark, Austin, Philadelphia…)

As before, I could be wrong. But neither is my opinion about Amazon's hiring needs coming from a position of complete ignorance. I work in the industry. I've had numerous conversations with Amazon recruiters and beyond. I know people who work there. And among all my colleagues I've ever only heard one express interest in moving to Atlanta. I know more who have moved from Atlanta to NY. Of course there's considerable bias in that sample, as these are all people I met in NY. Nonetheless, the places people in the NY tech industry are leaving for are places like SF, LA, Seattle, Austin, Denver, overseas... And that one colleague interested in Atlanta was born and raised in a suburb of Newark and lives in a nice home there today. I'm sure he'd be also quite happy to stay.

Last point, about an urban vs suburban location. I think this is very important to Amazon. Several posts earlier Emu Steve wondered how close is close enough to downtown to suit their needs. From their past example and direct from Jeff Bezos' mouth, Bellevue and Redmond were not close enough. They wanted to be directly downtown, where employees have for example lots of conveniently walkable options for lunch. And Tyson's Corner is much farther from DC than Bellevue and Redmond are from downtown Seattle. Also, I've never stepped foot in Tyson's Corner, but judging from Google Maps it's also much less urban and walkable than Bellevue, which is already too suburban in feel. I don't think Atlanta is ideal for Amazon either, but it would be far better than Tyson's Corner in this regard.

This consideration is also a huge advantage for Detroit. It's not yet particularly vibrant or walkable, but I can think of no other city with so much buildable space directly downtown, and available existing office space to tide Amazon over during construction. If Amazon moves in the restaurants and increased density / walkability will soon follow. I'm sure Gilbert, Duggan, and team are promoting the heck out of that. And fewer parking lots and more restaurants and retail would be great for Detroit.

**313WX** · October-13-17, 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

It is rare that I say this but... Atlanta's sprawl is worse than Detroit's! It is poster child for sprawl.

I have to disagree.

Atlanta may have quite a bit of sprawl, but at least they're not overbuilding infrastructure to accommodate population double it's size despite a stagnant population [[like Detroit).

**313WX** · October-13-17, 08:35 PM

So again, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Downtown Atlanta's home to over 25,000 residents and 125,000 daytime workers [[very healthy numbers for a metro area of 6 million).

How many workers and residents is downtown Detroit home to again?

**Gistok** · October-13-17, 10:04 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

So again, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Downtown Atlanta's home to over 25,000 residents and 125,000 daytime workers [[very healthy numbers for a metro area of 6 million).

How many workers and residents is downtown Detroit home to again?

As I had stated before, size/density/sprawl matters. When you start comparing things... you have to look at how things are defined. Downtown Atlanta is a rather spread out area of 4 sq. mi. with 125K workers, and 25K residents. Downtown Detroit is quite more compact with only 1.4 sq. mi., or about 1/3 of the size... with 92K workers, and yes... less than 6K residents. But if you started expanding that to adjoining higer density nearby areas, such as midtown and Lafayette Park/Gold Coast... you start getting closer to the Atlanta figures.

It's just that downtown Detroit has always been a smaller more compact area... as the city its self has defined it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downtown_Atlanta
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downtown_Detroit

**bust** · October-13-17, 10:12 PM

Maybe what we should be comparing is numbers of people who don't use a car to commute to work. Since it was Jeff Bezos himself who brought that metric up. I don't think the data would reflect well upon either city.

**313WX** · October-14-17, 06:25 AM

Originally Posted by Gistok

As I had stated before, size/density/sprawl matters. When you start comparing things... you have to look at how things are defined. Downtown Atlanta is a rather spread out area of 4 sq. mi. with 125K workers, and 25K residents. Downtown Detroit is quite more compact with only 1.4 sq. mi., or about 1/3 of the size... with 92K workers, and yes... less than 6K residents. But if you started expanding that to adjoining higer density nearby areas, such as midtown and Lafayette Park/Gold Coast... you start getting closer to the Atlanta figures.

It's just that downtown Detroit has always been a smaller more compact area... as the city its self has defined it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downtown_Atlanta
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downtown_Detroit

Even by that measure, Atlanta has over 225,000 employees in its downtown / midtown, versus Detroit's only 136,000.

Meanwhile, While only 35,000 people call downtown / midtown Detroit home, over 60,000 call downtown / midtown Atlanta home.

And we're not even going to get into a comparison of available hotel rooms, access to retail, tourism, student population, etc.

The point is, I don't get the purpose of shitting on another city when your own shit stinks far worse.

**313WX** · October-14-17, 07:01 AM

Originally Posted by bust

Maybe what we should be comparing is numbers of people who don't use a car to commute to work. Since it was Jeff Bezos himself who brought that metric up. I don't think the data would reflect well upon either city.

You do know Atlanta is a top 10 city in terms of ridership, yes?

But in any event, in terms of trips per resident, transit usage in Atlanta is 29.9 while Detroit is only 11.3. In terms of mode share, 13.7% of people in Detroit use some other form of transportation besides the automobile while 17.1% of people in Atlanta use some other form of transportation besides the automobile.

Also, a comparison to Atlanta and Detroit wouldn't necessarily be fair. SMART/DDOT service a larger area than Atlanta's MARTA does. As of today, SMART/DDOT only have a combined ridership of 136,000 [[versus 215,000 for MARTA). If Cobb and Gwinnett Counties ever join MARTA [[like Oakland and Macomb County are serviced by DDOT/SMART), the number of transit riders would easily double.

BTW, what makes Atlanta most impressive is that its system is entirely self-funded by the city and immediate suburbs. It receives absolutely no state funding. Plus, they're actively working to expand it within its admittedly limited bounds [[see the Atlanta Beltline light rail project).

**313WX** · October-14-17, 07:09 AM

One last point, because some just seem hell bent on hating Atlanta.

A better measure to determine the extent of sprawl in a region is the number and proximity of jobs relative to the region's CBD. Guess which city was the worst by a significant margin [[and no, it wasn't Atlanta)?

https://oregoneconomicanalysis.com/2...nd-vs-detroit/

**Gistok** · October-14-17, 08:10 AM

Did it ever occur to you that when you talk about "Gilbert polishing a Turd"... and "when your own shit stinks far worse".... that people will just start tuning you out? They'd probably rather hear about NoVa.... at least Steve doesn't make his points by insulting his old home town.

**313WX** · October-14-17, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by Gistok

Did it ever occur to you that when you talk about "Gilbert polishing a Turd"... and "when your own shit stinks far worse".... that people will just start tuning you out? They'd probably rather hear about NoVa.... at least Steve doesn't make his points by insulting his old home town.

Sorry if my comments seem to come across as insulting. That wasn't the intent.

I see myself as being objective. I acknowledge Detroit has problems and other places, by many measures, have it better than it does.

What frustrates me is when people trash other cities who don't have said problems nearly as bad as Detroit does.

**iheartthed** · October-14-17, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by 313WX

I have to disagree.

Atlanta may have quite a bit of sprawl, but at least they're not overbuilding infrastructure to accommodate population double it's size despite a stagnant population [[like Detroit).

I think that is because Atlanta hasn't yet had the population growth slow down that it inevitably will. I do think Atlanta will weather economic cycles better than Detroit has in the past because its economy is more diverse, but it is inevitable that Atlanta's population will slow at some point.

Also, while Atlanta may be insulated from climate change issues like rising sea levels and coastal storms, it will be susceptible to economic changes like cost of energy. Detroit would also be susceptible to this but I think the built environment of Detroit would allow it to adapt more quickly to a less car-dependent lifestyle than Atlanta. But neither city is in a particularly good position if we were to go through a period of abrupt spikes in energy prices.

**313WX** · October-14-17, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I think that is because Atlanta hasn't yet had the population growth slow down that it inevitably will. I do think Atlanta will weather economic cycles better than Detroit has in the past because its economy is more diverse, but it is inevitable that Atlanta's population will slow at some point.

Also, while Atlanta may be insulated from climate change issues like rising sea levels and coastal storms, it will be susceptible to economic changes like cost of energy. Detroit would also be susceptible to this but I think the built environment of Detroit would allow it to adapt more quickly to a less car-dependent lifestyle than Atlanta. But neither city is in a particularly good position if we were to go through a period of abrupt spikes in energy prices.

Atlanta will eventually slow down, that's true. That said, I doubt it will decline and stagnate like Metro Detroit, but instead maintain healthy growth levels. For starters, the overall trend in net migration within the US [[which don't appear to be changing any time soon) is to the sunbelt region. Second, it's the "Big Apple" of the SE, the place where everyone goes for a big city experience. It's not like Detroit and Michigan, who has always played second fiddle to Chicago and Illinois.

As far as their car dependency, bear in mind Atlanta is a very fiscally healthy city inside a very fiscally healthy state. Unlike Detroit and Michigan, they have the money readily available to invest in better transit. Plus, Atlanta already has solid bones in place to build a more extensive transit system [[unlike Detroit, who ripped up its bones back in the 50s). They could have shovels in the ground practically the next day to expand MARTA if there was the will power.

With Georgia become a swing state and its demographics trending younger, I'm quite certain the proper expansion and improvements to MARTA will happen sooner than later and the progress that has been made over the past 10 years to turn Midtown / Downtown into strong urban neighborhoods will continue, if not heat up.

**emu steve** · October-14-17, 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

Did it ever occur to you that when you talk about "Gilbert polishing a Turd"... and "when your own shit stinks far worse".... that people will just start tuning you out? They'd probably rather hear about NoVa.... at least Steve doesn't make his points by insulting his old home town.

I will next year when I say the Tigers are little better than the Mud Hens... lol.

**emu steve** · October-16-17, 10:47 AM

Here is an article about 3 months old [[I guess before Amazon became a household word for corporate relocation/expansion).

Interesting article on the movement of headquarters from the 'burbs to the downtowns.

One paragraph:

"Aetna recently announced that it will relocate from Hartford, Conn., to Manhattan; General Electric is leaving Connecticut to build a global headquarters in Boston; and Marriott International is moving from an emptying Maryland office park into the center of Bethesda."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...=.c79f1db72a9c

This paragraph is interesting to those who follow [[or are in) IT.

Indeed it used to be that IT was a back office function like accounting, HR, etc. Worse yet, tech support could be in another country. Data centers were put far, far away because who wanted to see one? Kind of like your washer and dryer in the home. Out of sight; out of mind.

Now it is front and center to how 21st century corporation function.

“It used to be the IT division was in a back office somewhere,” Emanuel said. “The IT division and software, computer and data mining, et cetera, is now next to the CEO. Otherwise, that company is gone.”

Times are a changing...

**313WX** · October-16-17, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by emu steve

Here is an article about 3 months old [[I guess before Amazon became a household word for corporate relocation/expansion).

Interesting article on the movement of headquarters from the 'burbs to the downtowns.

One paragraph:

"Aetna recently announced that it will relocate from Hartford, Conn., to Manhattan; General Electric is leaving Connecticut to build a global headquarters in Boston; and Marriott International is moving from an emptying Maryland office park into the center of Bethesda."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...=.c79f1db72a9c

Connecticut was never anything more than a massive suburb for NYC. Its "big city" [[Hartford) is a joke.

With its horrible tax structure and the trends in migration toward urban areas, I'm not surprised to hear about the companies fleeing that state.

**emu steve** · October-16-17, 10:59 AM

This article is 2-hours old and discusses D.C.'s [[not NoVa's) bid for HQ2.

My view: I don't see it happening. MOST of D.C. is too built up to take on something as big as this in addition to the expense of housing within commuting distance of D.C.

That said, IF, iF, iF Bezos wants to pull a 'game changer' he could put HQ2 straddling the Anacostia River in Southwest [[near the under construction D.C. United soccer stadium) and across the river into Anacostia neighborhood, Southeast D.C. That might be doable and would be a shot in the arm for Anacostia, which needs something to stimulate development.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.cd6314039583

Looking at the graphic:

In the upper half of the graphic, is Nationals Park, to the left is the D.C. United soccer stadium, under construction, and then over the river is the new Douglas bridge to begin construction soon.

If anyone is really curious, here is the subway map showing the river and subway stops where development would occur.

https://www.wmata.com/schedules/maps...System-Map.pdf