Warren is probably about to be sued over some weird religious stuff at city hall.

**Scottathew** · April-18-14, 07:22 AM

Originally Posted by finster

Wesley, thanks for being a sane voice of moderation around here. I don't know much about it but the article states that the prayer station has been at city hall a long time and just leaving it be sounds OK to me. People who spend all there time ranting and raving fighting against stuff like this and those "oh so evil" city hall Christmas displays need to find a new hobby. From what I can tell a lot of good and decent people have lived and worked in the city of Warren over the years and if someone can find a little comfort from something like this than what is so terrible. This is what really bothers some people for some reason. If the city of Dearborn wanted to erect a small homage to Islam somewhere I'm sure many would freak out but it wouldn't bother me in the least. With all the greater problems we seem to be having around here aren't there bigger fish to fry?

Government represents all, and should stay out of the business of religion.

People are so upset when they can't put their manager scene up at city hall, why the hell don't they just put one up on their front lawn? Or go to a church that shares their beliefs and put up a manger scene there?

I'm a Christian, but I have a lot of friends that aren't. I know atheists, Jewish folks, Muslims, and Hindus, and a few others I'm forgetting right now. I think it's unfair for their government to be promoting and accommodating religious beliefs of certain kind.

If you're so hell-bent on wanting a place to pray and worship, buy some land and make a new church. Keep it out of our government buildings.

**FbO Vorcha** · April-18-14, 07:33 AM

Originally Posted by finster

If the city of Dearborn wanted to erect a small homage to Islam somewhere I'm sure many would freak out but it wouldn't bother me in the least. With all the greater problems we seem to be having around here aren't there bigger fish to fry?

You're right, we do have bigger fish to fry. That being said, the people leading the freak-out about the city of Dearborn would be, and generally have been, FOX News and Conservative Christians. There have even been some laws passed prohibiting the instituting of any laws based on 'foreign' religions [[generally the intent of the law has been to ban Sharia).

Also, as an example of how this type of thing often goes:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1655249.html

**Zacha341** · April-18-14, 07:55 AM

I'm with you on the points below. This could get really stupid, fast. I feel there should be no 'station' there [[Islam, Christian, Atheist etc.). Problem solved. If I have to go to any city hall I hope I've prayed already for some decent service for the problem requiring me to go there.

Originally Posted by poobert

...I'm a Christian and my faith is important to me. As such, I respect the beliefs or non-beliefs of others and have no desire to force my faith on anyone.

As any person of faith, why would you want your religion tainted with something like city hall in the first place?

There are nearly 250 million Christians in the United States - over 3/4 of our population. There are nearly half a million churches in this country. I guess I don't see the need to throw a prayer station in Warren City Hall. Thankfully I'll never have to go to that godforsaken place.

**Bill Simpson** · April-18-14, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by poobert

Who the hell would approve this? Warren is such a fucking armpit. If I walked into city hall and saw a "prayer station" my first reaction would be: what the shit?

So you can pull a permit and get a prayer? What a bunch of hillbillies. Of course a group is going rightfully challenge this. Guess how this could have all been avoided? By not agreeing to do something so stupid in the first place.

As I've said before, I'm a Christian and my faith is important to me. As such, I respect the beliefs or non-beliefs of others and have no desire to force my faith on anyone.

As any person of faith, why would you want your religion tainted with something like city hall in the first place?

There are nearly 250 million Christians in the United States - over 3/4 of our population. There are nearly half a million churches in this country. I guess I don't see the need to throw a prayer station in Warren City Hall. Thankfully I'll never have to go to that godforsaken place.

On this holy day, please learn to live like Jesus.

**canuck** · April-18-14, 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by Bill Simpson

On this holy day, please learn to live like Jesus.

Funny! I would expect Bart Simpson to say something like that!

**Bill Simpson** · April-18-14, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by canuck

Funny! I would expect Bart Simpson to say something like that!

Good bless you.

**canuck** · April-18-14, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by Bill Simpson

Good bless you.

For the love of Good.

**Detroitnerd** · April-18-14, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by nain rouge

This comment right here is a perfect example of a great wrong in this country. Why should Freedom From Religion get a dime from this, aside from maybe compensation for legal fees? Why punish the taxpayers of Warren for incident largely out of their control? It just doesn't make sense.

Sure, Freedom From Religion should be able to seek a ruling outlawing such open displays of religion in a government institution. But free money?! FREE MONEY?! I see no reason why Freedom From Religion deserves free taxpayer money. But that's America, isn't it? Money for nothing.[/COLOR]

It's called punitive damages. In many cases, that's the only inducement to get governments and corporations to change their practices.

And my remark is almost completely a bit of overstatement, by the way.

If you'd like to familiarize yourself with civil law and the skinny on the prevailing bias against civil trial lawyers, may I recommend the film "Hot Coffee"? It opened my eyes quite a bit to why the civil law system functions as it does.

**Scottathew** · April-18-14, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

It's called punitive damages. In many cases, that's the only inducement to get governments and corporations to change their practices.

Yup, unless it costs them money, they don't care what the law is.

**poobert** · April-18-14, 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by Bill Simpson

On this holy day, please learn to live like Jesus.

It's a little known fact that in the gnostic Gospels, Jesus referred to Warren as an armpit.

Anyway, He didn't set up prayer stations either, he went around helping people. He pretty much ignored the Roman authorities altogether [[rather than trying to get His faith in with them and their government buildings) and just went around being a good dude. I'll try to do that instead, this weekend.

**mwilbert** · April-18-14, 02:35 PM

This doesn't seem like a good argument in this case. I'm reasonably sure our elders didn't expect a prayer station [[whatever that is) in random public buildings. This is a tradition of which I am unaware, probably because it doesn't exist.

**Honky Tonk** · April-18-14, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by mwilbert

This doesn't seem like a good argument in this case. I'm reasonably sure our elders didn't expect a prayer station [[whatever that is) in random public buildings. This is a tradition of which I am unaware, probably because it doesn't exist.

"Render onto Caesar what is Caesar's, and onto God what is God's"

**antongast** · April-18-14, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by finster

Wesley, thanks for being a sane voice of moderation around here.

This is like praising M.C. Escher for the functional utility of his staircases. Just because someone takes care to punch a strawman to his right and a strawman to his left whenever he constructs an argument does not make him a "sane voice of moderation." It just means he's practiced in the pundit's art of playing tricks on people's minds.

**canuck** · April-18-14, 04:15 PM

Originally Posted by antongast

This is like praising M.C. Escher for the functional utility of his staircases. Just because someone takes care to punch a strawman to his right and a strawman to his left whenever he constructs an argument does not make him a "sane voice of moderation." It just means he's practiced in the pundit's art of playing tricks on people's minds.

Very elegant comment antongast. Youse have a way with words.

**antongast** · April-18-14, 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by canuck

Very elegant comment antongast. Youse have a way with words.

Thanks, but I tend to recklessly split infinitives.

**DetroiterOnTheWestCoast** · April-18-14, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by antongast

Thanks, but I tend to recklessly split infinitives.

Do you dangle participles too?

**aj3647** · April-18-14, 06:06 PM

Originally Posted by Cliffy

I'd be curious to find out how often its used. Personally, I don't care. Anyone can go in there and pray. Muslim, Jews, Christians, people who worship the devil...

Wouldn't a simple solution to be to change the name of it to a "Reflection Room?" Then people can use it for whatever they want, prayer included.

**rb336** · April-18-14, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by finster

From what I can tell a lot of good and decent people have lived and worked in the city of Warren over the years and if someone can find a little comfort from something like this than what is so terrible. This is what really bothers some people for some reason.

They can find comfort in their own religious displays or those of their church/synagogue/mosque/temple. It has an exclusionary message when in the public square.

**Hypestyles** · April-18-14, 09:09 PM

is it a semantics issue? If the "prayer station" were converted to "contemplation station"...? LOL, never mind..

**erikd** · April-19-14, 08:05 AM

Originally Posted by finster

Wesley, thanks for being a sane voice of moderation around here. I don't know much about it but the article states that the prayer station has been at city hall a long time and just leaving it be sounds OK to me. People who spend all there time ranting and raving fighting against stuff like this and those "oh so evil" city hall Christmas displays need to find a new hobby. From what I can tell a lot of good and decent people have lived and worked in the city of Warren over the years and if someone can find a little comfort from something like this than what is so terrible. This is what really bothers some people for some reason. If the city of Dearborn wanted to erect a small homage to Islam somewhere I'm sure many would freak out but it wouldn't bother me in the least. With all the greater problems we seem to be having around here aren't there bigger fish to fry?

And here comes the straw man argument...

"With all the greater problems we seem to be having around here aren't there bigger fish to fry?"

What is the bigger fish to fry? Homelessness? The AIDS epidemic in Africa? Terrorism? Turmoil in the Middle East? The sovereignty of the Ukraine? Ending poverty in America?

Which "bigger fish" need to be fried before somebody can expect that their local government will comply with the first amendment? Does this guy need to solve world hunger before he has any right to demand that his city government abides by the US Constitution?

**gpwforever** · April-19-14, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by poobert

Who the hell would approve this? Warren is such a fucking armpit. If I walked into city hall and saw a "prayer station" my first reaction would be: what the shit?

So you can pull a permit and get a prayer? What a bunch of hillbillies. Of course a group is going rightfully challenge this. Guess how this could have all been avoided? By not agreeing to do something so stupid in the first place.

As I've said before, I'm a Christian and my faith is important to me. As such, I respect the beliefs or non-beliefs of others and have no desire to force my faith on anyone.

As any person of faith, why would you want your religion tainted with something like city hall in the first place?

There are nearly 250 million Christians in the United States - over 3/4 of our population. There are nearly half a million churches in this country. I guess I don't see the need to throw a prayer station in Warren City Hall. Thankfully I'll never have to go to that godforsaken place.

"Warren is a fucking armpit" "What a bunch of hillbillies."
"As I've said before, I'm a Christian and my faith is important to me. As such, I respect the beliefs or non-beliefs of others and have no desire to force my faith on anyone."

Unless you are a hillbilly living in that fucking armpit Warren.

Happy Easter

**canuck** · April-19-14, 08:19 PM

You could prolly hatch an Easter egg by squeezing it under the armpit that is Warren. That in itself is a miracle. Believe me.

**Don K** · April-20-14, 05:03 PM

The state of the law is really clear on this one. If you allow a religious display on government property, then you can't deny a request for any other religious display [[Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Wicca, Pastafarian) or for an anti-religious display. I suspect FFRF will request a permanent injunction and payment of legal fees, and that will be that.

I'd like to know where was the city attorney in all of this. He's paid to know this kind of stuff. If he told Fouts it's okay, then he's a moron. If he advised Fouts not to do it then Fouts is a moron or a pandering pol [[or both).

**DetroiterOnTheWestCoast** · April-20-14, 08:21 PM

Why can't governments just stick to, oh, it don't know, things like governing and let everyone tend to their religion or lack thereof on their own? Doesn't Warren have better things to do than establishing prayer stations and the like?

**313WX** · April-20-14, 08:30 PM

Originally Posted by DetroiterOnTheWestCoast

Why can't governments just stick to, oh, it don't know, things like governing and let everyone tend to their religion or lack thereof on their own? Doesn't Warren have better things to do than establishing prayer stations and the like?

Originally Posted by Don K

I'd like to know where was the city attorney in all of this. He's paid to know this kind of stuff. If he told Fouts it's okay, then he's a moron. If he advised Fouts not to do it then Fouts is a moron or a pandering pol [[or both).

This is the same town that considered banning all pet shops because one owner of one pet store lost his mind, and the same town whose police department thought it was a bright idea to restrain a minority woman from a city they loathe and cut off her weave to show her who was boss, and the same town that thought poaching the world headquarters of a corporation from their neighborhood/region's central city in the middle of their bankruptcy proceeding was a classy thing to do.

Needless to say, I think both of you are giving too much credit...