M-1 rail discussion

[Hermod]

Like I keep saying, if they had started this in Pontiac and worked south from there, the rest of the state might have bought in emotionally and financially.

[SpartanDawg]

Like I keep saying, if they had started this in Pontiac and worked south from there, the rest of the state might have bought in emotionally and financially.

that's an absolutely atrocious idea. not even trying to be a dick or anything but wow. the ridership on that would be almost zero. think about if it went 3.3 miles south from downtown pontiac? what purpose would that serve?

you think people in bloomfield would ride it to downtown pontiac?? honestly who would ride it if that's the only people it served?

they would run out of money QUICK, and it would be considered a failure within 6 months.

i really hope you're being sarcastic

[tkelly1986]

that's an absolutely atrocious idea. not even trying to be a dick or anything but wow. the ridership on that would be almost zero. think about if it went 3.3 miles south from downtown pontiac? what purpose would that serve?

you think people in bloomfield would ride it to downtown pontiac?? honestly who would ride it if that's the only people it served?

they would run out of money QUICK, and it would be considered a failure within 6 months.

i really hope you're being sarcastic

I'm certain he's being sarcastic. However, I once had one of Brook's deputies suggest this as a better plan than M1. His exact words were, "why not Pontiac to 8 mile?". Of course, after a few drinks this guy is admittedly anti-Detroit and would go on to say that Oakland County did not need Detroit. What a clown.

[dtowncitylover]

that's an absolutely atrocious idea. not even trying to be a dick or anything but wow. the ridership on that would be almost zero. think about if it went 3.3 miles south from downtown pontiac? what purpose would that serve?

you think people in bloomfield would ride it to downtown pontiac?? honestly who would ride it if that's the only people it served?

they would run out of money QUICK, and it would be considered a failure within 6 months.

i really hope you're being sarcastic

He repeats this often. As someone who worked for Detroit's highway department in the 1950s, I'm sure he knows a lot about transit.

Having the tram go from Pontiac to 8 Mile would be ludicrous. Can you imagine a tram at Woodward and Long Lake? Square Lake? No. I would support the re-implementation of streetcar service into Royal Oak but beyond that would be silly. That's why we have commuter rail. Birmingham would be nicely served by it with coordinated service by SMART's 780 Route into downtown Birmingham.

[Hermod]

that's an absolutely atrocious idea. not even trying to be a dick or anything but wow. the ridership on that would be almost zero. think about if it went 3.3 miles south from downtown pontiac? what purpose would that serve?

you think people in bloomfield would ride it to downtown pontiac?? honestly who would ride it if that's the only people it served?

they would run out of money QUICK, and it would be considered a failure within 6 months.

i really hope you're being sarcastic

Not really, for the money that is being spent to get a 3.3 mile "hipster hauler" you could get quite a ways south on Woodward. That would bring a groundswell of support into continuing it into downtown Detroit. As it is, it won't attract much interest or funding support outside of Detroit city limits till it gets to 8 Mile.

[Hermod]

He repeats this often. As someone who worked for Detroit's highway department in the 1950s, I'm sure he knows a lot about transit.

Having the tram go from Pontiac to 8 Mile would be ludicrous. Can you imagine a tram at Woodward and Long Lake? Square Lake? No. I would support the re-implementation of streetcar service into Royal Oak but beyond that would be silly. That's why we have commuter rail. Birmingham would be nicely served by it with coordinated service by SMART's 780 Route into downtown Birmingham.

This was once Detroit's electric railway system:



Detroit had little commuter service on its steam rail network because electric rail came along just as the need for service came into being.

[SpartanDawg]

Not really, for the money that is being spent to get a 3.3 mile "hipster hauler" you could get quite a ways south on Woodward. That would bring a groundswell of support into continuing it into downtown Detroit. As it is, it won't attract much interest or funding support outside of Detroit city limits till it gets to 8 Mile.

there is far more population density along the downtown woodward corridor... it's actually a city.. not a suburbia with wide roads.. nobody out there could see any benefit of public transportation. Ridership on M1 will be much greater downtown versus anywhere else. to think otherwise is foolish.

[Hermod]

there is far more population density along the downtown woodward corridor... it's actually a city.. not a suburbia with wide roads.. nobody out there could see any benefit of public transportation. Ridership on M1 will be much greater downtown versus anywhere else. to think otherwise is foolish.

So, you get your linear people mover that gets the drunk students from downtown bars back to the university area without a DUI. Good luck on getting state or regional buy-in for operating costs or expansion.

[dtowncitylover]

Good luck on getting state or regional buy-in for operating costs or expansion.

Thank god RTA doesn't allow for opt-out.

[jackie5275]

I just wish it was completed. I'm so tired of all this construction on Woodward.

[Honky Tonk]

I can't wait for the first marahoochie dispensary to open up on Woodard!

[gthomas]

I believe they're starting construction on one of the platforms for the grand circus park stations. Was downtown yesterday walking around and noticed it.

[SpartanDawg]

So, you get your linear people mover that gets the drunk students from downtown bars back to the university area without a DUI. Good luck on getting state or regional buy-in for operating costs or expansion.

so what would you get at bloomfield hills to pontiac? i forget that huge population that works in downtown pontiac compared to downtown detroit!

edit: also, you may be joking that "ohhhh hurr hurrr drunk students are gonna use it how turrrible"... well guess what.. that's probably true, and it's more riders than you're gonna get in bloomfield.. and you know who doesn't care about who rides the light rail, as long as people are actually using it? STATE AND REGIONAL LEGISLATORS THAT WILL GIVE OPERATING COSTS AND HELP WITH EXPANSION... so laugh it up and joke all you want about 'drunk students' using it.. that's more than you'll see in downtown pontiac --> northern bloomfield.

have a nice day.

[dtowncitylover]

I just wish it was completed. I'm so tired of all this construction on Woodward.

Hopefully with this mild weather we are having, some construction is able to get done that might not get done usually and it can be finished ahead of schedule a bit.

[MSUguy]

He repeats this often. As someone who worked for Detroit's highway department in the 1950s, I'm sure he knows a lot about transit.

Having the tram go from Pontiac to 8 Mile would be ludicrous. Can you imagine a tram at Woodward and Long Lake? Square Lake? No. I would support the re-implementation of streetcar service into Royal Oak but beyond that would be silly. That's why we have commuter rail. Birmingham would be nicely served by it with coordinated service by SMART's 780 Route into downtown Birmingham.

Well, that's the plan for the BRT service. The Woodward line will run Detroit to Pontiac

[emu steve]

Bump. When will the track laying be finished and Woodward resurfaced? [[mill and pave?).

Tomorrow is March 1 and I assume things should be completed later this year [[even though the trains won't run until 2017). Six or 8 months?

[dtowncitylover]

Bump. When will the track laying be finished and Woodward resurfaced? [[mill and pave?).

Tomorrow is March 1 and I assume things should be completed later this year [[even though the trains won't run until 2017). Six or 8 months?

WXYZ has an [[fluff) interview from last week...

http://www.wxyz.com/news/m-1-rail-pr...f-construction

At least we're not DC? They finally got their streetcar open just last week after 10 years of planning and construction...

But per usual there's never a concrete date it's always, "by the end...by the start...by the middle of...etc..."

[emu steve]

WXYZ has an [[fluff) interview from last week...

http://www.wxyz.com/news/m-1-rail-pr...f-construction

At least we're not DC? They finally got their streetcar open just last week after 10 years of planning and construction...

But per usual there's never a concrete date it's always, "by the end...by the start...by the middle of...etc..."

As Dr. Scott [[?) indicated, the D.C. Streetcar was a dumb, poorly executed project. I never saw the need, utility, etc.

The proposed Purple Line [[metro) connecting two legs of our subway makes sense. Instead of going say 7 - 8 miles 'as the crow flies' folks now on our red line have to go say 12 miles to downtown and then another 12 miles in essentially what is a big "U", where they simply want to move laterally across at the top of the "U".

Some mass transit [[M-1 rail?) makes a lot of sense. Some the D.C. H. Street N.E. line, "not too much".

[417deer]

Coming Soon, next November 2016 we will vote. So, think about what you want and how much do you want to pay? Could this be what you want? http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2016/02/08/rta-pitch/80040056/


Or, do you want the above AND also get coordinated DDOT and SMART bus routes? Could this be what you want or similar?https://www.change.org/p/regional-transit-authority-offices-please-sign-the-petition-to-help-fill-the-smart-and-ddot-buses?



Or, maybe you have a better plan? Please let the RTA know soon. It's best to ask before the tax passes and not after because money talks. http://www.rtamichigan.org/

[royce]

Attachment 22724
Attachment 22725


also this is going to be the configuration of Woodward through midtown and downtown [[from Adams St to Burroughs St top pic / downtown bottom pic)

So obviously the biggest thing that I see as a plus is going through midtown it cuts down to 5 lanes of moving traffic. I love that as a midtown resident because i feel like it will slow down the cars and make it much more walkable. I feel like now with it being basically 9 lanes people fly down it and it just seems so disconnected.

That can't be true in Midtown [[see attachment 22725). What I see is the rail line being constructed in the parking lane from I-94 southbound to just before the Fox Theater. There is no reduction of traffic lanes in Midtown. Five lanes exist south of Grand Circus Park but not in Midtown.

Also, the more I see the construction of this M1 Rail line, the more anger and disappointment I experience. I've talked before about my disappointment in seeing so many parking spots eliminated on the southbound side of Woodward, as the M1 Rail goes where the parking lanes exist. However, what I can't understand is the logic as to why it is so necessary to have the rail take up the parking lanes when it could have easily have been placed in the second lane from the curb? That's the way it's being built on the northbound side, right? And then to confuse me even more, the rail line veers into the second lane and maybe the third lane in front of the Fox Theater and Grand Circus Park. Why wouldn't the rail go right up against the curb in front of the Fox?

Another issue concerns the rail line taking up spaces in front of the Detroit Main Library. Parents dropping off or picking up their children in front of the Detroit Public Library are going to have to risk getting a fine because of "standing" in the rails path. I mean are they really supposed to park across Woodward in front of the DIA and wait for the kids to make a mad dash across the nine lanes of traffic? Are parents supposed to park on Kirby or Putnam, hoping they can see the kids leave the front entrance of the library? You know that there are no side entrances to the library, right? In addition, will the bus stop in front of the library be eliminated? Actually, won't all bus stops on the southbound side be in the way of the rail line?

What will delivery drivers do as well? And heaven forbid a car stalls and has to pull over to previously designated parking lane. Also, so much for picking up a carry-out order in front of Detroit One Coney Island, China One, or Fatburger? Who among you can explain the logic of constucting the southbound rail lines in the parking lane of a nine lane street?

[dtowncitylover]

That can't be true in Midtown [[see attachment 22725). What I see is the rail line being constructed in the parking lane from I-94 southbound to just before the Fox Theater. There is no reduction of traffic lanes in Midtown. Five lanes exist south of Grand Circus Park but not in Midtown.

Also, the more I see the construction of this M1 Rail line, the more anger and disappointment I experience. I've talked before about my disappointment in seeing so many parking spots eliminated on the southbound side of Woodward, as the M1 Rail goes where the parking lanes exist. However, what I can't understand is the logic as to why it is so necessary to have the rail take up the parking lanes when it could have easily have been placed in the second lane from the curb? That's the way it's being built on the northbound side, right? And then to confuse me even more, the rail line veers into the second lane and maybe the third lane in front of the Fox Theater and Grand Circus Park. Why wouldn't the rail go right up against the curb in front of the Fox?

Another issue concerns the rail line taking up spaces in front of the Detroit Main Library. Parents dropping off or picking up their children in front of the Detroit Public Library are going to have to risk getting a fine because of "standing" in the rails path. I mean are they really supposed to park across Woodward in front of the DIA and wait for the kids to make a mad dash across the nine lanes of traffic? Are parents supposed to park on Kirby or Putnam, hoping they can see the kids leave the front entrance of the library? You know that there are no side entrances to the library, right? In addition, will the bus stop in front of the library be eliminated? Actually, won't all bus stops on the southbound side be in the way of the rail line?

What will delivery drivers do as well? And heaven forbid a car stalls and has to pull over to previously designated parking lane. Also, so much for picking up a carry-out order in front of Detroit One Coney Island, China One, or Fatburger? Who among you can explain the logic of constucting the southbound rail lines in the parking lane of a nine lane street?

All I'm getting from your post is that somehow parking on Woodward is going to cause great chaos when there's literally thousands upon thousands of more parking spaces elsewhere throughout the midtown and downtown areas. You have Cass, Second, Third to the west, John R and Brush to the east.

Then you're complaining about parents and the Library? Yeah, go over to Kirby, Putnam, or Cass to wait. Kids these days either have cell phones or coordinate with their parents before hand. It's not that difficult.

And if you're in midtown and ordering food and not either walking to food or delivering it but instead DRIVING, you seriously need a crash course in urban living.

Welcome to city living where parking is NOT a guaranteed right.

[Scottathew]

You think Woodward is bad, in Oakland County our "Main Street" is a 6-8 lane grade separated, limited access interstate freeway!

[jt1]

Another issue concerns the rail line taking up spaces in front of the Detroit Main Library. Parents dropping off or picking up their children in front of the Detroit Public Library are going to have to risk getting a fine because of "standing" in the rails path. I mean are they really supposed to park across Woodward in front of the DIA and wait for the kids to make a mad dash across the nine lanes of traffic?

The Cass entrance is essentially made for pick up/drop off and is the much more frequently used entrance/exit

[royce]

All I'm getting from your post is that somehow parking on Woodward is going to cause great chaos when there's literally thousands upon thousands of more parking spaces elsewhere throughout the midtown and downtown areas. You have Cass, Second, Third to the west, John R and Brush to the east.

Then you're complaining about parents and the Library? Yeah, go over to Kirby, Putnam, or Cass to wait. Kids these days either have cell phones or coordinate with their parents before hand. It's not that difficult.

And if you're in midtown and ordering food and not either walking to food or delivering it but instead DRIVING, you seriously need a crash course in urban living.

Welcome to city living where parking is NOT a guaranteed right.

Well, if all you are getting is my complaints about eliminating parking then you didn't read the entire post. However, lack of parking in front of the library will pose a problem. Being able to see your kids leave a building is a safety issue. Parking on a side street talking to them on the cell phone doesn't prevent a stranger from snatching them while you're talking to them. The Cass entrance to the library is already very restrictive when it comes to parking. Taking away the parking from Woodward just makes the Cass entrance parking situation more problematic.

In addition, parked cars serve as a buffer for people to feel safe walking along sidewalks on busy streets. No one feels safe eating outdoors along a sidewalk where cars or other vehicles travel right along the curb. I believe Jane Jacobs talked about this phenomenon in her famous book on cities. In cities like Birmingham and Ann Arbor you have outdoor seating where you have parked cars. If there are no parked cars, then the seating is elevated along the curb and usually on a street with slower traffic, not like Woodward. How many outdoor arrangements will pop up on the southbound lanes of Woodward? Also, what happens if a hotel wants to build along that side of Woodward? Even at the Westin Book Cadillac or other hotels in other cities [[like the one in Chicago along Michigan Avenue), you can still pull up and drop off or pick people up in front of the hotel. The rail in that lane makes that problematic.

Also, why eliminate parking from the parking lane when the M1-Rail could easily travel in the second lane from the curb. You didn't answer this part of my complaint. If it being done on the northbound lanes, why can't it be done on the southbound lanes?

The other issue deals with delivery trucks. At some point UPS and other trucks like pop and beer trucks have to park in front of a store or restaurant that they're delivering to. Won't they force the rail to stop and wait. And what about bus stops? Not that busses take a long time to load passengers, but won't they too slow down the rail when they pick up passengers?

The logic to have the rail in the second lane on the northbound lanes makes sense. Choosing not to have the rail in the second lane on the southbound lanes doesn't. This issue bothers me so because once the rails are in place, that's it. It's permanent. Trust me. There will be issues and problems with the southbound rail line. It just seems to me that most of these issues/problems could have been avoided by placing the rail lines in the second lane. History will judge whether or not my concerns have merit. Again, I need someone to explain the "logic" behind this configuration.

BTW, I have lived in the city all my life. I have been to many of the so called "world class" cities. They have parking scenarios that make sense to me. Only in Detroit do we do things bass ackwards.

[Junjie]

Well, if all you are getting is my complaints about eliminating parking then you didn't read the entire post. However, lack of parking in front of the library will pose a problem. Being able to see your kids leave a building is a safety issue. Parking on a side street talking to them on the cell phone doesn't prevent a stranger from snatching them while you're talking to them. The Cass entrance to the library is already very restrictive when it comes to parking. Taking away the parking from Woodward just makes the Cass entrance parking situation more problematic.

In addition, parked cars serve as a buffer for people to feel safe walking along sidewalks on busy streets. No one feels safe eating outdoors along a sidewalk where cars or other vehicles travel right along the curb. I believe Jane Jacobs talked about this phenomenon in her famous book on cities. In cities like Birmingham and Ann Arbor you have outdoor seating where you have parked cars. If there are no parked cars, then the seating is elevated along the curb and usually on a street with slower traffic, not like Woodward. How many outdoor arrangements will pop up on the southbound lanes of Woodward? Also, what happens if a hotel wants to build along that side of Woodward? Even at the Westin Book Cadillac or other hotels in other cities [[like the one in Chicago along Michigan Avenue), you can still pull up and drop off or pick people up in front of the hotel. The rail in that lane makes that problematic.

Also, why eliminate parking from the parking lane when the M1-Rail could easily travel in the second lane from the curb. You didn't answer this part of my complaint. If it being done on the northbound lanes, why can't it be done on the southbound lanes?

The other issue deals with delivery trucks. At some point UPS and other trucks like pop and beer trucks have to park in front of a store or restaurant that they're delivering to. Won't they force the rail to stop and wait. And what about bus stops? Not that busses take a long time to load passengers, but won't they too slow down the rail when they pick up passengers?

The logic to have the rail in the second lane on the northbound lanes makes sense. Choosing not to have the rail in the second lane on the southbound lanes doesn't. This issue bothers me so because once the rails are in place, that's it. It's permanent. Trust me. There will be issues and problems with the southbound rail line. It just seems to me that most of these issues/problems could have been avoided by placing the rail lines in the second lane. History will judge whether or not my concerns have merit. Again, I need someone to explain the "logic" behind this configuration.

BTW, I have lived in the city all my life. I have been to many of the so called "world class" cities. They have parking scenarios that make sense to me. Only in Detroit do we do things bass ackwards.

Whole thing should've been center running anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egc_MwazUWo