Let's talk about how the roads around here are PISS POOR, and an embarassment.

[TKshreve]

RO Resident + Detroit Planner:

Do the powers that be and State take into consideration traffic congestion caused by construction when considering the scope/cost/duration of a road project?

[DetroitPlanner]

RO Resident + Detroit Planner:

Do the powers that be and State take into consideration traffic congestion caused by construction when considering the scope/cost/duration of a road project?

Yes extensive public meetings and input went into the closure of I-96 in Livonia. If it is closed down completely, they can get the job done in 5 months. If it is left partially open to traffic it will take 2 years and will be congested anyway.

MDOT began seeking public input on closing down roads for about 15 years now. Roads where this was used on included I-75 downtown, with M-39 it was found that the public was okay with it closed down on the weekends so 90 percent of that project was done then. When I-96 from downtown to telegraph was reconstructed, it was a mixture of closures and openings. The Lodge was closed down completely when it was rebuilt.

It is a pain at first, but eventually traffic finds an equilibrium and once that happens things are good. One issue that needs to be planned for carefully is to make sure that alternative routes are not under construction at the same time the freeway is closed or it gets all buggered up.

[Kevgoblue]

Yes extensive public meetings and input went into the closure of I-96 in Livonia. If it is closed down completely, they can get the job done in 5 months. If it is left partially open to traffic it will take 2 years and will be congested anyway.

That can't be the case. Years back when undertaking a major reconstruction project crews used to be out working round the clock. Now it seems as if they just work 9-5, M-F. I want to say I recall hearing the explanation being a desire to reduce overtime, thus cost on the project.

If they were really concerned about minimizing the impact on local business and citizens they would take 2 of the crews that were simulaneously working on Southfield, the Lodge and I-75 [[they usally choose roadways that run in the same direction) and have them work on only 1 project at a time. 3 shift operation. 24/7. That would get the guys back on a 8 hour day and minimizes the OT cost, while cutting the project time from 6 months to 2. When was the last time you've seen some major reconstruction done that didn't have the highway shut down the entire summer?

[rb336]

That can't be the case. Years back when undertaking a major reconstruction project crews used to be out working round the clock. Now it seems as if they just work 9-5, M-F. I want to say I recall hearing the explanation being a desire to reduce overtime, thus cost on the project.

The cost of time-and-a-half pay and double-time results in around a 33% price increase. Further, fatal accidents were far more common with night crews than daytime

[Islandman]

I remember years back there was some sort of study on I-75 where they used the building techniques used in Germany for the autobahn. I think it was a mile and was supposed to last longer than our "fixes". Does this ring any bells? I think it was in the 90s.

[DetroitPlanner]

I remember years back there was some sort of study on I-75 where they used the building techniques used in Germany for the autobahn. I think it was a mile and was supposed to last longer than our "fixes". Does this ring any bells? I think it was in the 90s.

Very early 90's Europave was used on a segment of I75 roughly from Mack to roughly where I-375 starts. This has held up fairly well over the last 20+ years. This project was a Demonstration [[aka Pork project) which paid 90 percent of the construction cost. Today the best you can do is normally the feds paying about 80 percent. The idea here was to see how it would hold up in an area with extreme temperature swings.

This was successful, but it was prohibitively expensive to construct. Europeans pay roughly 5 times the gasoline tax that folks in the States do. But it buys them good roads and great buses/trains.

If you're okay with $6-$7 gasoline, contact your elected officials. They may have you committed!

[RO_Resident]

I remember years back there was some sort of study on I-75 where they used the building techniques used in Germany for the autobahn. I think it was a mile and was supposed to last longer than our "fixes". Does this ring any bells? I think it was in the 90s.

The European-spec pavement is northbound I-75 from roughly Warren to Piquette.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/md...8_309964_7.pdf

[DetroitPlanner]

The European-spec pavement is northbound I-75 from roughly Warren to Piquette.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/md...8_309964_7.pdf

No $h!t!?!? I could have sworn it was S of there!

[Cliffy]

I just wished the governor and the legislature grew a backbone and just charge us .25 a gallon extra. The roads are beyond bad. I'm driving around and their are craters where a few bowling balls could fall in. I don't understand who would be against paying .25 gallon extra to fix our roads when its killing our cars and is becoming a safety hazard.

Greenfield between 8 and 9 mile should be shut down. Shame on the county for keeping it open.

[RO_Resident]

The Road Commission for Oakland County is going to reconstruct the southbound side of Greenfield this spring.
http://www.rcocweb.org/Lists/PressRe...default%2Easpx

I imagine they do not want to close down that section because of the proximity to Providence Hospital, 8 Mile, and the Lodge.

[RO_Resident]

No, I'm not Larry Galehouse. I have taken a couple of his NCPP classes, though.

Pretty much any amount of preventive maintenance is better than no PM. There is also a recognition that each community is different. Even a community with the majority of their roads in poor shape will benefit, in the long run, if they adopt an asset management approach to taking care of their infrastructure.

The tools I use to forecast road conditions are descriptive and are limited to 10-year horizon. They are descriptive in that they 'keep the human in the loop'. The forecast[[s) tell you how much work to do for any work type. It is up to the engineer to figure out where to do the actual work.

We also try to limit the out horizon for any forecast we do. We recognize that the model will do PM forever on any stretch of road forever. A lot of model runs will reach equilibrium roughly a decade out. It doesn't make a lot of sense to use extended forecasts when the 12th year's costs are exactly the same as the 20th year. We know the reality will be different for those out years.

[EL Jimbo]

No, I'm not Larry Galehouse. I have taken a couple of his NCPP classes, though.

Pretty much any amount of preventive maintenance is better than no PM. There is also a recognition that each community is different. Even a community with the majority of their roads in poor shape will benefit, in the long run, if they adopt an asset management approach to taking care of their infrastructure.

The tools I use to forecast road conditions are descriptive and are limited to 10-year horizon. They are descriptive in that they 'keep the human in the loop'. The forecast[[s) tell you how much work to do for any work type. It is up to the engineer to figure out where to do the actual work.

We also try to limit the out horizon for any forecast we do. We recognize that the model will do PM forever on any stretch of road forever. A lot of model runs will reach equilibrium roughly a decade out. It doesn't make a lot of sense to use extended forecasts when the 12th year's costs are exactly the same as the 20th year. We know the reality will be different for those out years.

True. PM is an essential part of the AM approach to pavement preservation. You need to invest in it to keep your good and fair roads out of poor condition for as long as possible.

What performance measure are you using to evaluate pavement condition? I assume it is PASER as that is what is being collected by the Asset Management Council. I like PASER, but like other "windshield surveys" it definitely has its limitations. I wish we had sensor-based DI data for the entire federal aid eligible system but that would be very expensive.

[RO_Resident]

These days, we almost exclusively use Paser data. We are well aware of the limitations. However, when you can train someone in a morning, and have workable data by the next day, you are on to something.

Plus, the Paser data runs ~$20 per mile to collect the data. Dedicated trucks run ~$60 per mile to collect condition data and another ~$60 per mile to produce usable data. You run into real money very quickly.

The state is experimenting with a Droid-based system to measure road roughness. They are sorting through some of the quirks in the data collection process.

Michigan Tech is also working on some low-cost processes to collect and analyze distress data.

[EL Jimbo]

Oh yeah. PASER is a ton cheaper and easier to start up with implementation for sure.

Personally, I'm not a huge fan of using IRI as a performance measure to make decisions with. Is likely the one that correlates the most with customer experience? Probably, but it doesn't always match up with actual pavement life. Some roads at the end of their pavement life still ride pretty smoothly while some newer roads can ride a bit rougher earlier in their life.

This is my big concern with MAP-21. Yes there is a push for national performance measures and performance thresholds and the only "consistent" one that is used nationally is IRI [[although there is some variation in how it is measured throughout the country). That's all well and good, but I've yet to see anyone who has been able to create a forecasting model based on IRI. So if transportation agencies are basing their decisions on IRI because that is the measure they are being evaluated against, how can those agencies know if their preservation strategies are producing the best, most cost effective solutions possible given whatever your funding level is?

I'm really interested/nervous to see how that all shakes out.

[msamslex]

Been meaning to post this.
Got two robo calls on 3/28, @11:39 am and 6:38 pm. CID said Safe Roads Yes. No other calls since then. I didn't answer and no message was left. I imagine more calls are forthcoming as May 5 gets closer.

[Detroitnerd]

There is one place where the roads are much better and are taken care of much, much differently: Essex County. On a drive to Leamington, I was impressed by the lack of traffic, lack of lanes, and interesting patch jobs they used.

[Cliffy]

You know the roads are real bad when those right wing loons that post comments after articles are bitching about more spending for the roads.

It doesn't matter what city you're in, the roads are beyond horrible. I have never seen anything like this with full size craters everywhere. Whoever wants a tax refund check instead of fixing the roads is a moron.

[Honky Tonk]

You know the roads are real bad when those right wing loons that post comments after articles are bitching about more spending for the roads.

It doesn't matter what city you're in, the roads are beyond horrible. I have never seen anything like this with full size craters everywhere. Whoever wants a tax refund check instead of fixing the roads is a moron.

And whoever advocates more taxation instead of finding out where all the supposedly "road repair" money is REALLY going, is a @$#%ing village idiot.

[ABetterDetroit]

And whoever advocates more taxation instead of finding out where all the supposedly "road repair" money is REALLY going, is a @$#%ing village idiot.

We are talking about Billions of dollars at the state level. If it was just laying around misappropriated wouldn't have 3 years of complete republican control been able to find it?

[rb336]

We are talking about Billions of dollars at the state level. If it was just laying around misappropriated wouldn't have 3 years of complete republican control been able to find it?

Why would they? Maybe they did, and funneled it to Snyder's cronies who redesigned the Michigan job bank into an unusable mess, into Snyder's blind funds, etc. etc.

[Honky Tonk]

Why would they? Maybe they did, and funneled it to Snyder's cronies who redesigned the Michigan job bank into an unusable mess, into Snyder's blind funds, etc. etc.

Have another hit.

[Honky Tonk]

We are talking about Billions of dollars at the state level. If it was just laying around misappropriated wouldn't have 3 years of complete republican control been able to find it?

I don't care WHO control's it. That has nothing to do with the fact that taxes are already being collected for a specific purpose, the issue isn't being addressed , and your solution is to tax people even more. Enough.

[Cliffy]

I don't care WHO control's it. That has nothing to do with the fact that taxes are already being collected for a specific purpose, the issue isn't being addressed , and your solution is to tax people even more. Enough.

http://www.1990sflashback.com/1998/economy.asp

Median Household Income: $38,568.00 Cost of a gallon of regular gas: $1.06 Cost of a dozen eggs: $1.09 Cost of a gallon of Milk: $3.16
Nobody told this poor guy that its 2014.

[Cliffy]

And whoever advocates more taxation instead of finding out where all the supposedly "road repair" money is REALLY going, is a @$#%ing village idiot.

Seriously, enough with the right wing stupid talk. Our roads look like something from a 3rd world village and is destroying our vehicles and you think some pot of money is hidden somewhere. Get real. If you want your $40 rebate check then you're dumber than I thought. Stop living in the 1998 price world. You can't buy asphalt for $20 a ton anymore.

[ABetterDetroit]

I'm shocked that Mark Schauer didn't come right out of the gate on how bad the roads are in his commercial. Everyone I run into that you have a catch up conversation with right now the condition of the roads comes up almost as fast as the winter weather. Bouncing down one of these destroyed roads in a car with a camera rolling about how the republicans won't fix them is something that everyone would relate to. Instead he rolls out the exact same talking points that didn't work last election. Its the roads IDIOT Polititions fix them! Tax the gas and diesel. Do it or we will find someone who will.