Should we get rid of I-375?

[Detroitnerd]

I find it fascinating how people without a lick of knowledge on the subject have no trouble spouting off why their urban planning ideas are so brilliant.

Why? You don't strike me as particularly well-educated or experienced or worldly at all, and yet all you do is offer opinions.

[greekt0wn]

I find it fascinating how people without a lick of knowledge on the subject have no trouble spouting off their brilliant urban planning ideas. It's like my barista offering me tax planning advice after giving me my dry cappuccino.

[DetroitPlanner]

Why not demolish everything in between I-75 and the Lodge and create a SUPERFREEWAY? That way, people will FLY downtown and traffic will never be a problem again!

I'll do one better catapults and parachutes! Why bother building pesky freeways? Hmm this method may not work too well with a load of Chevy Volts!

[iheartthed]

I won't "rail against it" as Detroit and MDOT can do as they wish. I just doubt the idea that such a vast number of well-heeled investors are just waiting in the wings for 395 to be a surface street. Another idea like the magic choo-choo to sprinkle fairy dust on the city.

It doesn't have to be replaced by glittering skyscrapers for it to be better for the city. It could be a district of Family Dollars and wig shops and it would be better than an unproductively slab of concrete.

[royce]

First off, there is no freeway exit or entrance at Lafayette. Secondly, there is no way possible for there to be and exit from 75 [[Fisher) to Gratiot Avenue. By the time you exit the Fisher to 375 south bound you are right there at Gratiot. Too dangerous to have an exit there. Cars turning that corner would run into cars backed up while waiting to enter Gratiot. The earliest exit is Lafayette, in terms of ending the freeway and beginning a surface street.

The reason for ending 375 IMHO has more to do with how it affects Jefferson than what it does with connecting Lafayette Park and the CBD. Currently you can't cross Jefferson in front of U of D Mercy's Law School/SS. Peter and Paul church. Being able to cross there could do wonders in improving the walkability of that area. To do that, you have to get rid of the 375 entrance and exit there. Creating two left turn lanes to get to 375, and closing off Larned [[only over the freeway) is the solution. Also, for some strange reason MDOT had a convoluted exit and entrance for GM workers getting off of 375 south of Jefferson when it thought of continuing 375 south of Jefferson. All that would be needed is a tunnel under Jefferson and Woodbride coming up at Atwater. Schwietzer Place/Hastings could be expanded to allow for traffic above the tunnel and to continue the right-of-way for Franklin and Woodbridge streets heading east and west.

I am surprised at how many Lafayette Park residents are against this. Take Gratiot to St. Aubin/Madison to get to 75 North and Jefferson to get to the Lodge. If I lived there, I would welcome less freeway noise and the opporturnity for land opening up for possible retail on their side of the freeway. Currently, you have to do quite a bit of walking to get to anything if you lived at the Pavillion. It would be nice to have retail where the currently vacant Shapiro Hall building and surrounding area is located.

[Gistok]

Royce... 2 things... 1) I don't think that the folks in Lafayette Park want to have their buildings face the alley side of new commercial/retail along a level I-375 roadway, and 2) they may like the tranquility of not having commercial space so close to their oasis. Not everyone in Lafayette Park is young and wants vibrant businesses so close by.

[royce]

Good points, Gistok.

[Wesley Mouch]

Is this really an improvement? I mean is M-59 "walk able"? Or, for that matter, is Gratiot or Jefferson really "walkable"?

going through all the expense and effort just to make 375 a 6 lane artery road with a nice lawn in the median doesn't make sense to me [[although it seems a very detroit/SeM thing to do). am I missing something?

When writing, I realized that I wasn't quite following the new urbanist playbook.

But yes, a 2 or 3 lanes in each direction separate by a boulevard would be dramatically more pleasant than a ditch.

Neither Gratiot nor Jefferson is highly walkable. The medians around Eastern Market are nice, and are an improvement. I'd take either over current I375.

I don't see that we can conquer all new urbanist goals here. The world would be better if I375 were closed, Jefferson removed, and excellent, free, dense downtown public transit was added. But I'll take the low-hanging fruit here and say let's at least do this. Our children can get the rest done later. At least we moved in the right direction.

Voltaire: "Le mieux est l'ennemi du bien" [[Perfect is the enemy of the good).

[mtburb]

Thanks for your opinion, everyone. Right now, I'm designing title cards for television shows relating to I-375's future, if any get made, which I doubt will ever happen.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

One reason I like a thread like this is that it is a blank slate for everyone's ideas. When there is one specific proposal or rendering, we all just love it or hate it. Now, we have a vague concept, loosely proposed. While I don't agree with all [[or maybe even most) ideas on this thread, I think many of them are fascinating to read.

[mtburb]

...I think many of them are fascinating to read.

Including what I'm about to show you in 3... 2... 1...









I do know that none of these four specials will ever exist, but that's what I randomly picked. If any of the four existed, will you watch any of them? And can you guess which shows these specials will be of, judging by the screenshots [[even though they are specials in their own right and not part of any TV show)?

By first glance, you may notice one special is based on an old Grosse Pointe sensation and another based on what is probably Detroit's most popular feline [[probably because he is just as unlucky as the city proper), although I just picked those. Plus, hashtags are included for some extra realism, although they too will be fake.

The answers to the images above:
1. Batman [[1966 TV series)
2. Tiny Toon Adventures
3. Gilligan's Island
4. I don't know what that one is based on. [[likely hint: a show on the CBS network, as a CBS Outdoor billboard was used for this title card.)

[Wesley Mouch]

One reason I like a thread like this is that it is a blank slate for everyone's ideas. When there is one specific proposal or rendering, we all just love it or hate it. Now, we have a vague concept, loosely proposed. While I don't agree with all [[or maybe even most) ideas on this thread, I think many of them are fascinating to read.

Yes.

Its rare to be able to speculate on a practical opportunity to remake a small part of our city and infrastructure.

[DetBill]

I am surprised at how many Lafayette Park residents are against this. Take Gratiot to St. Aubin/Madison to get to 75 North and Jefferson to get to the Lodge. If I lived there, I would welcome less freeway noise and the opporturnity for land opening up for possible retail on their side of the freeway. Currently, you have to do quite a bit of walking to get to anything if you lived at the Pavillion. It would be nice to have retail where the currently vacant Shapiro Hall building and surrounding area is located.

So many of us Lafayette Park residents are against this basically because we live here and see the benefits and pitfalls of this plan.. Freeway noise is not a problem,,at all, we have great accessibility to walk to downtown over 1375 at lafayette , our neighborhood is pretty quiet now and segregated from the downtown, we have great parks and walking areas and the idea of slowing down a ton of traffic for a surface street is not appealing to us. This will create steady jam ups of cars which is not thrilling to deal with. There will have to be at least one light at Lafayette if not a additional one. Also, we really like being able to jump on 1375 to get to whatever destination quickly we need to .. We would prefer some money was spend to improve the existing roads and lighting, alot less expensive. Also, the type of possible retail that would be built along a surface street would most likely be strip mall type,, which would cause more traffic problems and probably bring some types of retail which would we probably wouldnt welcome,, and the clientele with it. We have a safe quiet area,, a busy surface street is not appealing at all. What people dont seem to understand is we are not talking a large area at all.. a surface road would still occupy a major portion of the proposed area,, you are not going to get some huge greenspace and retail area in addition. It just doesnt make sense to us at all. We see the volume of traffic that uses this everyday,, its very , very busy some times and the people in cars can get to their destinations quickly now.

[That Great Guy]

Detroit isn't Canada. You need armed guards on the bus and at the bus stop. The cameras in the bus will probably be stolen.

Also, you would need honest government officials who would not give themselves big pay increases and buy new cars instead of buying enough cameras and buses. But, still there is a huge demand for good bus service downtown and this can remove many thousands of cars off the freeways. Thus, making it a good idea to remove I-375 and reduce traffic congestion at the same time. Mass transit can and does work in many cities and can work in Detroit.

[ghettopalmetto]

...our neighborhood is pretty quiet now and segregated from the downtown, we have great parks and walking areas and the idea of slowing down a ton of traffic for a surface street is not appealing to us. This will create steady jam ups of cars which is not thrilling to deal with. There will have to be at least one light at Lafayette if not a additional one. Also, we really like being able to jump on 1375 to get to whatever destination quickly we need to .. We would prefer some money was spend to improve the existing roads and lighting, alot less expensive. Also, the type of possible retail that would be built along a surface street would most likely be strip mall type,, which would cause more traffic problems and probably bring some types of retail which would we probably wouldnt welcome...

What would you call the intersection of I-375 and Jefferson--free-flowing? I doubt that removal of I-375 is suddenly going to put your neighborhood in the boonies.

And what if, instead of strip malls, the zoning for the reclaimed property allowed for *gasp* 2-3 story neighborhood-oriented retail, fronting the sidewalk and with parking in the rear? I guess I'm just having difficulty understanding why you live in the middle of the damned city if you want to be marooned on an island.

[royce]

Detbill, I get it. You and your fellow residents have the NIMBY mentality. Yet, as much as you and others tout about how great Lafayette Park is, I would never want to live there. Despite what you say about the walkability of the area, it to me is not very walkable, unless you like to take long walks that take hours [[slight exageration). If I lived at the Pavilion or a townhouse near it, it would take me over 10 minutes walking to reach the shopping center and any restaurant in downtown, while walking along streets with very few people walking on them. Oh, that's right, there's that Lafayette Plaissance walkway behind everything that is park like and serene, but isolated, that can get me to the shopping center.

However, to me that walkway is equivalent to walking down a dark alley way. Yeah, it's a shortcut but it might be a shortcut to my demise. It's just not safe to me. Also, all of those trees and bushes and all of that glass and no fences. I'm surprised the crooks haven't figured out that this place could be a gold mine when it comes to robbing people getting out of their cars or burglaries of the smash and grab kind. I guess all of those dead end streets do cut down on crime, but with the new kind of criminal, I'm not sure if I want to risk it.

Granted, I might actual consider living in Lafayette Park if there were some shops along the service drive of 375 [[and some fences and some through streets). However, that would expose your little hamlet to the rest of the world, and yes, there are some scary people that might hang out around those shops.

BTW, it just amazes me how much space is utilized for parking at the Pavilion. A whole nother tower could go up on that west parking lot and there would still be plenty of room to park cars to the east. Wasted space. Actually, as dense as Lafayette Park is, it's very low density when it comes to persons per square block. It is not my ideal urban environment.

[finster]

Count me in as one of the Negative Nancys on this one. Even though I doubt this would ever really happen, I can't see the point of wasting more money [[again) on another so called "study" [[again) when the city is in bankruptcy and even if it's a state budget item then that money could be better spent on existing roads in the city and not this pie in the sky nonsense.

I can't buy the story that this freeway is in that bad of shape to justify removing it. Even if it is a good idea for the future, and I have my doubts, why is this even on the radar right now. Count me in the 'Give it a break, already, and deal with the real problems that are real right now!' category.

[mwilbert]

So many of us Lafayette Park residents are against this basically because we live here and see the benefits and pitfalls of this plan.. Freeway noise is not a problem,,at all, we have great accessibility to walk to downtown over 1375 at lafayette , our neighborhood is pretty quiet now and segregated from the downtown, we have great parks and walking areas and the idea of slowing down a ton of traffic for a surface street is not appealing to us. This will create steady jam ups of cars which is not thrilling to deal with. There will have to be at least one light at Lafayette if not a additional one. Also, we really like being able to jump on 1375 to get to whatever destination quickly we need to .. We would prefer some money was spend to improve the existing roads and lighting, alot less expensive. Also, the type of possible retail that would be built along a surface street would most likely be strip mall type,, which would cause more traffic problems and probably bring some types of retail which would we probably wouldnt welcome,, and the clientele with it. We have a safe quiet area,, a busy surface street is not appealing at all. What people dont seem to understand is we are not talking a large area at all.. a surface road would still occupy a major portion of the proposed area,, you are not going to get some huge greenspace and retail area in addition. It just doesnt make sense to us at all. We see the volume of traffic that uses this everyday,, its very , very busy some times and the people in cars can get to their destinations quickly now.

You like what you have now, and don't want to see it disrupted. That is completely reasonable.

On the other hand, I don't live in Lafayette Park, although I find it quite attractive, and have given considerable thought to living there. But as part of that process I've spent some time walking round the area trying to figure out what living there would be like, and I feel that one of the least attractive aspects of it is the 375 moat. It substantially reduces the walkability of the location, at least in my view. And, as other people have said, why live in the heart of the city without getting the full benefit of that? There are lots of other places you could live where there are parks, walking is unpleasant, and you can get onto a highway quickly.

[finster]

You like what you have now, and don't want to see it disrupted. That is completely reasonable.

On the other hand, I don't live in Lafayette Park, although I find it quite attractive, and have given considerable thought to living there. But as part of that process I've spent some time walking round the area trying to figure out what living there would be like, and I feel that one of the least attractive aspects of it is the 375 moat. It substantially reduces the walkability of the location, at least in my view. And, as other people have said, why live in the heart of the city without getting the full benefit of that? There are lots of other places you could live where there are parks, walking is unpleasant, and you can get onto a highway quickly.

Wouldn't a more realistic goal be building a few pedestrian bridges across I-375 to link both sides of the highway? Would especially be easier while the roadbed and other bridges are being worked on. I'm talking a wider strip with room to walk and bike here, not the simple walk over kind.

[iheartthed]

Wouldn't a more realistic goal be building a few pedestrian bridges across I-375 to link both sides of the highway? Would especially be easier while the roadbed and other bridges are being worked on. I'm talking a wider strip with room to walk and bike here, not the simple walk over kind.

That would just add something for MDOT to have to spend money maintaining. The only reason this is being discussed is because they have to rebuild it. It's something that they know they have to do. It's not something they'd just like to do. It's a given. So the question is if it's worth it to rebuild or should they use the opportunity to get rid of it?

[ghettopalmetto]

Wouldn't a more realistic goal be building a few pedestrian bridges across I-375 to link both sides of the highway? Would especially be easier while the roadbed and other bridges are being worked on. I'm talking a wider strip with room to walk and bike here, not the simple walk over kind.

The goal of the study is not to examine walkability issues [[and putting pedestrian bridges across a freeway is a "lip-service" idea that doesn't tend to work well in practice, but I digress).

[southen]

LP resident in favor of filling in 375 here. i love my neighborhood and bought my place for the surroundings. it is beautifully designed but the one thing i dont like is how it is more suburban in nature and to me its saving grace is proximity to downtown. a five to ten minute walk and im in campus martius enjoying everything that an urban center has to offer. if 375 were capped my hopes are some of that urbanity would trickle east of downtown. sadly most of the homes from downtown to grand boulevard are suburban in nature which i think is unfortunate.

royce - there is private security in the co-ops that help curb more serious crimes. there are security lights on all of the buildings as well which really light the area up at night. i have never once worried about someone in a bush because it isnt that difficult to see. also, i hope you are complaining about the route to get from LP to other locations and not the fact that it would take 10 minutes. pretty sad if a ten minute walk gets you up in arms about a place.

[DetroitPlanner]

The goal of the study is not to examine walkability issues [[and putting pedestrian bridges across a freeway is a "lip-service" idea that doesn't tend to work well in practice, but I digress).

I would disagree with this. It is one of the goals, and is an MDOT mandate under its complete streets program.

For the person dismissing the comments of the other person who lives in Lafayette Park, the person who lives in Lafayette Park has more skin in the game than you do. Their comments have more credibility because he lives there and walks to downtown on a regular basis. If he does not see the bridges as an issue, then that will be taken into account more than anyone else's "I think" or "I want" comment. This is not to say that he will get his way though, it very well could end up a grade level road. It has a lot to do with costs and benefits vs negative aspects and ultimately what the politicos want.

[Wesley Mouch]

The goal of the study is not to examine walkability issues [[and putting pedestrian bridges across a freeway is a "lip-service" idea that doesn't tend to work well in practice, but I digress).

I agree with you on the 'lip-service' of pedestrian bridges. Better than not having them, I suppose.

But the question isn't whether pedestrian access is good, and whether vehicular access is good. The question is how to best achieve the best result at a responsible cost.

Even if you like the freeway, it might now be worth the additional expense of keeping it in place vs. a surface street. Freeways are avoided mostly because of the expense of the bridges. Bridges are fiercely expensive. Of course here you have the cost of filling in the hole. But its only dirt vs. steel and lead paint abatement.

Something I haven't heard discussed yet is whether the feds will contribute money to a non-freeway rebuild. The reason this is a freeway is mostly because of money, I suspect. Anything with I- is a federal road, with 90% federal money. I'm sure even if the city officials at the time wanted a boulevard, they couldn't resist the fun of spending someone else's money. Replacement money? I don't know. Does anyone?

[Gannon]

Can't we just flood it in and make a koi pond...the world's largest?!

We could have gondola rides...and drain it in the winter for a half-mile of toboggan runs...


But seriously, I think this and the Lodge should be dug out FURTHER to connect through underneath downtown, with exits for underground alleyways and parking lots...connected to the other spokes made subterranean within the People Mover loop. So we can have an underground service and vehicle level not unlike Chicago.

Then we can stop all surface traffic in the same way and make the innermost of the Motor City motor-free. At least no petrol-burners...