Paralyzed firefighter to lose insurance

[jt1]

Do the citizens have a right to cry about the priority of approved services over promised pensions and healthcare right now? I say no. The citizens voted for all of those bond initiatives that put the city deeper and deeper in debt. The citizens voted for the elected officials that mismanaged the city. The citizens voted for the governors that reneged on promised revenue sharing. What are we teaching our children, grandchildren, etc.? Rack up the debt and then declare bankruptcy and say you are doing it for the good of the children. Stop pretending the poor citizens have a right to be held harmless. I say they do not.

Did the citizens vote for the pension funds leadership. Ya know, those people that have completely mismanaged the pension funds. Funny that they are absolved of all responsibility.

[Cliffy]

Where is the compassion for the residents paying property tax and getting near zero services? I assume having a situation where school girls get raped in abandoned buildings or kids die in house fire because DFD doesn't have properly functioning equipment is acceptable to you as long as a retiree doesn't get a cut in their pensions.

I find it funny that people are asking for sympathy for the retirees when they have no sympathy for the residents. Perhaps a taking their own ad"vice would go a long ways for changing some perceptions. Or they can continue saying, "F you, pay me

Pensions have nothing to do with crime in Detroit. Stop with the bullshit about school girls getting raped and trying to relate that to pensions.

[jt1]

Pensions have nothing to do with crime in Detroit. Stop with the bullshit about school girls getting raped and trying to relate that to pensions.

Are the abandoned buildings, malfunctioning street lights, insufficient DFD to actually follow up on crime also bullshit? You just supported by concern perfectly. I'll paraphrase your post, "Fuck the residents, just don't touch my pension."

I certainly hope you don't understand why my sympathy with the pensioners dissipates with every post like yours.

[Scottathew]

Pensions have nothing to do with crime in Detroit. Stop with the bullshit about school girls getting raped and trying to relate that to pensions.

Unsustainable pensions, along with corruption and gross mismanagement have been draining the city of the funds it needs to fight and prevent crime. Pensions are only a part of that puzzle, but a significant part. Pensions have had an impact on the services provided to Detroit residents, including crime fighting and prevention.

Keep in mind that many folks here don't want to see pensioners get screwed, but it's the reality of the situation. Detroit residents have been getting screwed for years so that pensioners can collect their benefits, so that the city can continue to operate inefficiently, and so that crooks like Kwame and the gang can fund their criminal enterprise.

[313WX]

It's amazing that some folks have the audacity to say that you're evil if you don't offer any sympathy to the Pensioners, yet the Pensioners haven't offered any type of sympathy to the 700,000 citizens of Detroit who are receiving an absolutely deplorable level of services. There was one particular person in a thread about streetlights who callously said something along the lines of "Why not just turn off all the streetlights!? The city's dead anyway!"

[313WX]

Pensions have nothing to do with crime in Detroit. Stop with the bullshit about school girls getting raped and trying to relate that to pensions.

When some much of Detroit's revenue is going to debt payments [[which mostly consists of retirement benefits), it has PLENTY to do with the lack of city services that may have significantly reduced the probability of said school girl getting raped.

[Hermod]

When at least 40% of Detroit's revenue is going to debt payments [[which mostly consists of retirement benefits), it has PLENTY to do with the lack of city services that may have significantly reduced the probability of said school girl getting raped.

To put it succinctly: Do we pay for police now or police before?

In no way are the pensioners bad for wanting their full pensions, but there is just so much money. Detroit [[unlike the feds) can't just print money. How should the existing money be shared out?

[erikd]

To put it succinctly: Do we pay for police now or police before?

In no way are the pensioners bad for wanting their full pensions, but there is just so much money. Detroit [[unlike the feds) can't just print money. How should the existing money be shared out?

I think that we should bill former Detroiters for their share of the retiree benefits and pensions. If you lived in Detroit from 1960 to 1990, you shouldn't be off the hook for paying your fair share just because you moved to the suburbs.

Everybody wants to shit on Detroit for not "paying our bills", but what about the 800,000 people who moved out of the city over the last 30 years? Why don't they have to help pay for the retirees who provided services for them?

The retirees aren't getting shafted by Detroit, they are getting shafted by the hundreds of thousands of FORMER Detroiters who left the city and shirked their debts. The taxes are much lower and the services are better in a new suburb like Canton or Auburn Hills, because there are no retirees collecting benefits from a suburb that didn't exist 30 years ago.

Former Detroiters and city retirees like to accuse the city of screwing them out of benefits, but they don't realize that they have screwed themselves. When 60-70% of the residents and businesses flee the city, and are no longer paying into the system that supports their benefits, this is what happens.

The lure of lower taxes and better services is very attractive, but there is a price to be paid for that.

Don't blame the city or current Detroiters for your benefit reductions, because we pay more for retiree benefits than anybody else, blame the former Detroiters who left the city, and don't pay anything into the system.

[Zacha341]

I'm sure the president regrets those promise[[s) as the ACA "frankenstein" attempts to stand to its feet...

PresidentBarack Obama said:

“Americans must have the freedom to keep whatever doctor and health-care plan they have.”He was adamant: “If you like your health plan, you will be able to keep your health-care plan. Period.” He was clear: “Let me be clear: If you like your doctor or health-care provider, you can keep them. If you like your health-care plan, you can keep that, too.”

“No matter what you’ve heard,” he said in a weekly radio address in August 2009,“if you like your doctor or health-care plan, you can keep it.”

“For those Americans who already have health insurance, the only changes you will see under the law are new benefits,better protections from insurance company abuses, and more value for every dollar you spend on health care. If you like your plan you can keep it and you don’t have to change a thing due to the health care law.”

[Zacha341]

Yep. It's a strong possibility that California and New York and other cities will be next for pension promise-breaking...

i blame the pension idea itself. no one can predict trends and future employment levels.

[Zacha341]

Well stated. I have two family members who worked for the city [[both just retired). One may be ok as the spouse has bennies and still working. Not good times at all...

I am just amazed at the people all ready to go full blast and cut people's pensions and health care. You will be old and sick someday too. It happens to everyone. Have some fucking compassion.

[Zacha341]

Update to the story as of 10/30... comment section is pretty wild!

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/23...ealth-benefits

[erikd]

Well stated. I have two family members who worked for the city [[both just retired). One may be ok as the spouse has bennies and still working. Not good times at all...

Just out of curiosity...

Do they live in the city? Do their children [[if any) live in the city?

[Scottathew]

The retirees aren't getting shafted by Detroit, they are getting shafted by the hundreds of thousands of FORMER Detroiters who left the city and shirked their debts. The taxes are much lower and the services are better in a new suburb like Canton or Auburn Hills, because there are no retirees collecting benefits from a suburb that didn't exist 30 years ago.

No.

Pensions are not sustainable. That's why many of the evil suburban communities have long left them in the dust.

Detroit cannot be a "Cash for Life" lottery ticket for everyone that works there. It's highly unfortunate that pensioners aren't going to get what they were promised and what they depend on. However, Detroiters aren't getting what they depend on; basic city services, police protection, fire protection, timely EMS responses.

Detroiters have been suffering for many years that have turned into decades.

Creditors are going to take a bath in a bankruptcy.

Active city workers have been laid off, have had pay reduced, and have reduced benefits. Active city workers are now getting paid much less, but working even harder. They are making tremendous sacrifices.

I strongly disagree with people who suggest that pension liabilities, one of the main drains on the city, should remain unscathed while everyone else suffers and doesn't get what they were promised.

If we don't reduce pension benefits, the accounts will run out, the checks will bounce, and pensioners would be left out to dry.

Keep in mind too that these unsustainable pension benefits were demanded by the unions that represented the pensioners. Any attempt to introduce sustainability is fought fiercely by the very people that would benefit from a stable, predictable retirement.

Pensions are a horrible idea that need to no longer be offered. When someone retires, a company should no longer have to pay them a dime. Retirements should get their strength from investments in 401k plans and savings. Healthcare should become a single-payer system. These things would enable more stable retirements.

[Zacha341]

We all live in Detroit... one couple has children. The other does not.

So, yes, we are paying as much as we can ala legacy costs thru our taxes, etc.

Just out of curiosity...

Do they live in the city? Do their children [[if any) live in the city?

[Zacha341]

They are going away... it was unsustainable on many levels, and the moneys collected over the years was often diverted. So it's best you put your future moneys into something more sustainable. This is but another bureaucratic disaster; a firestorm heading off to other cities as the remaining baby-boomers, and the tier below them [[who still may have received promises of a pension) retire. And if you're injured early in your career, as with the fire fighter, you're toast too.

Pensions are a horrible idea that need to no longer be offered. When someone retires, a company should no longer have to pay them a dime. Retirements should get their strength from investments in 401k plans and savings. Healthcare should become a single-payer system. These things would enable more stable retirements.

[erikd]

We all live in Detroit... one couple has children. The other does not.

So, yes, we are paying as much as we can ala legacy costs thru our taxes, etc.

That's cool. If more would do the same thing, we wouldn't be in this predicament.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

However pensions work out for those currently or about to receive them in CoD, I hope we have learned our lesson that you can't attach obligations to an unknown future. All contributions to someone's compensation should be made in the present. Put money in a 401K & Medical Savings Acct for the employee to manage themselves. No debt to the city.

[cla1945]

Let's me crystal clear here, a significant number of retirees [[especially those out of state and out of the region) don't give a shit about the residents or services they receive. There is 0 willingness to negotiate or give up one penny regardless of the impact to the citizens. I can assure you that people like Ray and CLA don't care if a bomb is dropped on the city as long as they don't take any sort of hit

You, my friend, don't know what you're talking about. You don't know me, and you probably don't know Ray, so you presume too much with the above statement. You sound pretty selfish, maybe a bit jealous that between Ray and myself, we have given Detroit approximately 65 or 70 years of our lives...and, not behind a desk. We both were on the mean streets of Detroit protecting and serving those very residents that you say we don't give a shit about....what have you done for Detroit?

So, while I know you don't like me, why don't you shut up about things you know nothing about.

[cla1945]

I think that we should bill former Detroiters for their share of the retiree benefits and pensions. If you lived in Detroit from 1960 to 1990, you shouldn't be off the hook for paying your fair share just because you moved to the suburbs.

Everybody wants to shit on Detroit for not "paying our bills", but what about the 800,000 people who moved out of the city over the last 30 years? Why don't they have to help pay for the retirees who provided services for them?

The retirees aren't getting shafted by Detroit, they are getting shafted by the hundreds of thousands of FORMER Detroiters who left the city and shirked their debts. The taxes are much lower and the services are better in a new suburb like Canton or Auburn Hills, because there are no retirees collecting benefits from a suburb that didn't exist 30 years ago.

Former Detroiters and city retirees like to accuse the city of screwing them out of benefits, but they don't realize that they have screwed themselves. When 60-70% of the residents and businesses flee the city, and are no longer paying into the system that supports their benefits, this is what happens.

The lure of lower taxes and better services is very attractive, but there is a price to be paid for that.

Don't blame the city or current Detroiters for your benefit reductions, because we pay more for retiree benefits than anybody else, blame the former Detroiters who left the city, and don't pay anything into the system.

Uh, excuse me...I lived and worked for Detroit for 50 plus years and paid Detroit City income taxes every one of those years and I paid my property taxes every year, on time. I receive a pension from Detroit and pay Federal taxes on that....how much of a sacrifice do you want from those of us who gave more than our fair share? Maybe, instead of blaming retirees for being "greedy", look at the real cause for Detroit's demise. Thug KK raped and pillaged the city for years, his friends and family screwed you, the residents who are now blaming retirees for wanting what was a condition of our employment. The pension and healthcare was in our contract from the day I signed on..I didn't DEMAND anything.

[jt1]

You, my friend, don't know what you're talking about. You don't know me, and you probably don't know Ray, so you presume too much with the above statement. You sound pretty selfish, maybe a bit jealous that between Ray and myself, we have given Detroit approximately 65 or 70 years of our lives...and, not behind a desk. We both were on the mean streets of Detroit protecting and serving those very residents that you say we don't give a shit about....what have you done for Detroit?

So, while I know you don't like me, why don't you shut up about things you know nothing about.

CLA, you and Ray have been crystal clear about how you feel about the current residents and the indifference to the lack of services.

There's no jealousy on my end. I'm still well on track to retire in my 50s through savings in my 401k, Roth IRAs, IRAs and other investment.

I know plenty about Ray and yourself from your posts and your indifference to the current 700,000 residents so save your high road bullshit for those that will believe it.

But.....if you want to lump yourself in with Ray, bear in mind he is the same person that has made such wonderful comments such as "Michigan is magnificent! Too bad it has Detroit for a sewer" or "Surprise, surprise, Black folks in Detroit don't like white folks. And that's all okay. But let it be the other way around, and.............in response to articles in the news or freep.
I have a feeling that from your posting history you agree with those sentiments. But hey, those people are on the hook for your pension shortcomings.

[cla1945]

CLA, you and Ray have been crystal clear about how you feel about the current residents and the indifference to the lack of services.

There's no jealousy on my end. I'm still well on track to retire in my 50s through savings in my 401k, Roth IRAs, IRAs and other investment.

I know plenty about Ray and yourself from your posts and your indifference to the current 700,000 residents so save your high road bullshit for those that will believe it.

But.....if you want to lump yourself in with Ray, bear in mind he is the same person that has made such wonderful comments such as "Michigan is magnificent! Too bad it has Detroit for a sewer" or "Surprise, surprise, Black folks in Detroit don't like white folks. And that's all okay. But let it be the other way around, and.............in response to articles in the news or freep.
I have a feeling that from your posting history you agree with those sentiments. But hey, those people are on the hook for your pension shortcomings.

You are way off base! I think I have read most of Ray's comments on a number orf different threads here on DetroitYes...I have never read anything from Ray stating what you accuse him of saying above. I have never made any disparaging remarks about Detroit residents or made any racial remarks. If you can find them, please feel free to share them.

I have a hard time believeing you about your "401k, Roth IRA'S, etc." but have at it jt1.

Your only defense is to play the race card. Up against a wall, with nothing else to say, play it. Unfortunately, it gets you nowhere.

This thread began about Dougie and the rotten way Detroit is treating him and others who are disabled because of their employment with Detroit. I am sick to my stomach and ashamed of those who have made that decision to cut him off at the knees...especially when, because of his dedication to Detroit, fighting fires and saving life, limb and property for Detroiters, he has already been cut in half physically and has no other options now. If you want to continue the argument about how us current and former workers in Detroit don't give two shits about the residents, do it somewhere else.

[Cliffy]

Well stated. I have two family members who worked for the city [[both just retired). One may be ok as the spouse has bennies and still working. Not good times at all...

I'm guessing the "lets cut people's pension" clan is under 40 and healthy and thus immortal and they will all be rich because they put 5500 away per year in an ira. These people have a wakeup call coming.

[cla1945]

I'm guessing the "lets cut people's pension" clan is under 40 and healthy and thus immortal and they will all be rich because they put 5500 away per year in an ira. These people have a wakeup call coming.

How right you are!

[jt1]

You are way off base! I think I have read most of Ray's comments on a number orf different threads here on DetroitYes...I have never read anything from Ray stating what you accuse him of saying above. I have never made any disparaging remarks about Detroit residents or made any racial remarks. If you can find them, please feel free to share them.

Reading comprehension my friend. I stated these were comments he made in response to articles in the local papers, not here. His comments there are certainly different than they are here.

I have a hard time believeing you about your "401k, Roth IRA'S, etc." but have at it jt1.

Why is that, I invest about 30K a year. I live frugally and plan that SS will not exist when I am older. It will likely be later 50s but, even with the economic downturn I am ahead of my plan. I realize the concept of saving is hard for you to understand but I have grown up in a generation where the concept of being taken car of through SS or pensions is not a reality and I have planned and set my life style accordingly.

Your only defense is to play the race card. Up against a wall, with nothing else to say, play it. Unfortunately, it gets you nowhere.

You lost me on the race card. Where have I played that? Are you referencing the quote of Ray's? It is nothing more than a simple example of how he views current residents. Now, granted, I am white so Ray likely would see me differently.

This thread began about Dougie and the rotten way Detroit is treating him and others who are disabled because of their employment with Detroit. I am sick to my stomach and ashamed of those who have made that decision to cut him off at the knees...especially when, because of his dedication to Detroit, fighting fires and saving life, limb and property for Detroiters, he has already been cut in half physically and has no other options now.

I agree he should be taken care of however the city simply can't afford it. This is where the state or federal gov't should be working with the city to ensure that those that truly need the help/support get it. No blood left in the Detroit turnip

If you want to continue the argument about how us current and former workers in Detroit don't give two shits about the residents, do it somewhere else.

I was unaware that you had the ability to dictate what discussions should be on this board and how they should go. We are two people with clearly different opinions however neither of us have the right to tell someone not to post due to a difference in opinion.