15 Detroit Fire Companies closing, nearly 200 demotions

[antongast]

Ahhh yes. Join the crowd. Welcome to socialism.

No thank you!

So p69rrh51 doesn't want to work because of taxes. You want to work because not working is socialist. ndavies wants to work, but not in a country that confuses poor people with human beings. So how about this? You work and pay taxes, p69rrh51 stops working in order to take advantage of America's incredibly generous social safety net, ndavies moves to Somalia and gets filthy stinking rich, and everyone is happy. Problem solved!

[Wheels]

Thank you for pointing out the many good things that can be done in a Capitalist Government.

[Detroitnerd]

Thank you for pointing out the many good things that can be done in a Capitalist Government.

Hate to break it to you pal, but the United States is a MIXED ECONOMY. It has elements of capitalism and elements of socialism. It has been that way for a long time. Most of those organizations represent the socialist aspect of our government. Very few, if any, existed when the United States was a purely laissez faire capitalist country.

Again, you haven't the faintest, foggiest, scarcest idea what you're talking about. Which would be funny if it weren't so fucking sad. :/

[Detroitnerd]

Maybe it's a good time to post this again:

Area Man Passionate Defender Of What He Imagines Constitution To Be

ESCONDIDO, CA—Spurred by an administration he believes to be guilty of numerous transgressions, self-described American patriot Kyle Mortensen, 47, is a vehement defender of ideas he seems to think are enshrined in the U.S. Constitution and principles that brave men have fought and died for solely in his head.

Kyle Mortensen would gladly give his life to protect what he says is the Constitution's very clear stance against birth control.

"Our very way of life is under siege," said Mortensen, whose understanding of the Constitution derives not from a close reading of the document but from talk-show pundits, books by television personalities, and the limitless expanse of his own colorful imagination. "It's time for true Americans to stand up and protect the values that make us who we are."

http://www.theonion.com/articles/are...agines-c,2849/

[Wheels]

Hate to break it to you pal, but the United States is a MIXED ECONOMY. It has elements of capitalism and elements of socialism. It has been that way for a long time. Most of those organizations represent the socialist aspect of our government. Very few, if any, existed when the United States was a purely laissez faire capitalist country.

Again, you haven't the faintest, foggiest, scarcest idea what you're talking about. Which would be funny if it weren't so fucking sad. :/

You are the one that left out all the Socialist crap that exists in government today. I was just thanking you for being so insightful. Not usually your style.

[p69rrh51]

Gotta love it a thread about layoffs turns into a constitutional debate!

[ndavies]

It's not about not paying any taxes or even extremely low taxes. It's about using the taxes we pay efficiently. Detroit, the example we're looking at now, Has not used the money it has received efficiently. The city has been losing population for the last 60 years, Instead of planning for the continueing population losses they continue to plan for growth and continue to raise taxes killing the growth. Unfortunately all that plannign for growth while the city collapses has left them with unsustainable debt and no cash on hand to pay operating expenses..

I wouldn't mind if current tax dollars were going to current operating expenses. Unfortunately current tax dollars are mostly going to pay for previous years debt and future retirement expenses.

As much as you all don't want to admit it. Cities are in competition with each other. The most efficient cities will continue to grow. The cities that have terrible leadership, will continue to fail. Since Detroit offers zero advantages over the neighboring cities, It will continue to fail. Detroit will not succeed until it gets it's cost in line with it's potential revenue.

Detroit is the result of social engineering run amuk.

[Detroitnerd]

You are the one that left out all the Socialist crap that exists in government today. I was just thanking you for being so insightful. Not usually your style.

I recommend you read a book or two. The first I would suggest for you would be a dictionary.

[Detroitnerd]

It's not about not paying any taxes or even extremely low taxes. It's about using the taxes we pay efficiently. Detroit, the example we're looking at now, Has not used the money it has received efficiently. The city has been losing population for the last 60 years, Instead of planning for the continueing population losses they continue to plan for growth and continue to raise taxes killing the growth. Unfortunately all that plannign for growth while the city collapses has left them with unsustainable debt and no cash on hand to pay operating expenses..

I wouldn't mind if current tax dollars were going to current operating expenses. Unfortunately current tax dollars are mostly going to pay for previous years debt and future retirement expenses.

As much as you all don't want to admit it. Cities are in competition with each other. The most efficient cities will continue to grow. The cities that have terrible leadership, will continue to fail. Since Detroit offers zero advantages over the neighboring cities, It will continue to fail. Detroit will not succeed until it gets it's cost in line with it's potential revenue.

Detroit is the result of social engineering run amuk.

That's your narrative and you're sticking to it.

But cities aren't in competition with each other.

Regions are.

This whole region is failing. All together. By any reasonable metric.

But that doesn't fit in with your narrative, so I guess you'll have to overlook it...

[Richard]

It all goes back to leadership and politics.

What district is Detroit?

2011

Michigan 8	$10,412,736,029
Michigan 15	$906,920,659
Michigan 13	$461,471,014
Michigan 7	$437,542,388
Michigan 1	$345,486,560
Michigan 5	$312,802,148
Michigan 4	$269,081,128
Michigan 14	$262,524,963
Michigan 9	$220,901,267
Michigan 3	$206,421,363
Michigan 2	$194,506,924
Michigan 6	$192,139,985
Michigan 10	$158,285,966
Michigan 12	$142,396,759
Michigan 11	$54,005,455
Michigan 16	$2,095,417
Other [[not a known District within the state)	$34,434,029,154
Total	$49,013,347,179

http://www.fedspending.org/faads/faa...2011&submit=GO

[ndavies]

Yes it is about regions. A majority of the bleeding in the region is out of Detroit and Wayne County. Even in the midst of Michigans lost decade, Oakland, Macomb, Washtenaw and Monroe county all grew between 2000 and 2010. Wayne county lost 11% of it's population and Detroit lost 25%. Oakland grew by 0.7%, macomb by 6.7%. Livingston county grew by over 10%

http://2010.census.gov/news/pdf/cb11...ge_2010map.pdf

Just think how much better the region would have been if Detroit had kept up with the rest of the region. Just think how much more competitive the region would be if Detroit had fixed it's problems years ago. Maybe if they hadn't raised taxes and signed up for unsustainable contracts, maybe the entire region would be booming.

[Detroitnerd]

Yes it is about regions. A majority of the bleeding in the region is out of Detroit and Wayne County. Even in the midst of Michigans lost decade, Oakland, Macomb, Washtenaw and Monroe county all grew between 2000 and 2010. Wayne county lost 11% of it's population and Detroit lost 25%. Oakland grew by 0.7%, macomb by 6.7%. Livingston county grew by over 10%

http://2010.census.gov/news/pdf/cb11...ge_2010map.pdf

Just think how much better the region would have been if Detroit had kept up with the rest of the region. Just think how much more competitive the region would be if Detroit had fixed it's problems years ago. Maybe if they hadn't raised taxes and signed up for unsustainable contracts, maybe the entire region would be booming.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

[downtownguy]

Hahaha. Oh, yes. Government is the problem. I know. I'm going to guess that, every day, you wake up to an alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the U.S. Department of Energy. Then you take a shower in the clean water provided by the municipal water utility. Then you turn on the radio to one of the FCC-regulated channels to see what the National Weather Service of the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration has determined the weather will be like, using satellites designed, built and launched by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. Then you eat a breakfast of U.S. Department of Agriculture-inspected food and taking the drugs that have been determined safe by the Food and Drug Administration.

Then, at the appropriate time, as regulated by U.S. Congress and kept accurate by the National Institute of Standards and Technology, as well as the U.S. Naval Observatory, you get into your National Highway Traffic Safety Administration-approved auto and set out to work on the roads built by local, state and federal departments of transportation. Before leaving the house, you drop any mail that has to be sent out via the U.S. Postal Service. Then you drop the kids off at public school, and possibly stop to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the Environmental Protection Agency, using legal tender issued by the Federal Reserve Bank.

After work, I bet you drive your NHTSA car back home on DOT roads, to a house that didn't burn down thanks to local and state building codes and mandatory government inspections. It most probably was not been robbed, thanks to the local police department.

Then, after all that, you log onto the Internet, developed by the Pentagon, and post all about how government is bad. Very bad. No socialism for me, thank you very much!

Of course, all this anti-government talk is really just coded language. You really aren't anti-government if you live like this. I bet you� are actually very pro-government, as least as it relates to improving your life and ensuring your safety and comfort.

Often, I find that people angry about "socialism" are actually opposed to is a government that improves the lives of all people. Or other people. Or those people.

But that wouldn't be you, would it?

Yeah, but "government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem" has such a nice ring to it.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

Whaddya mean, tragic? We're just running our government like a business. Firefighters aren't turning a profit? Out they go. Anyway, Mitt Romney doesn't believe in firefighters, and he's a man who knows a thing or two about running a business.

You think we have it bad now, you better hope that "loon" Romney doesn't get elected.

[mam2009]

Besides the worsening quality of life for tax-paying residents in the neighborhoods [[yeah, I used to think it couldn't get any worse once upon a time too), potentially chasing more of them away, this will also end up chasing more tax-paying businesses out of Detroit due to the even higher insurance rates and poorer police presence to protect them from vagrants triggered by the budget cuts, and potentially more job losses.

You are slowly winning me over, 313WX. If we just had an EM start the bankruptcy process for us, we would not have to make such severe cuts to vital services. But then I remember that an EM could still impose salary, benefit and wage cuts on our workers too, which would still have everybody complaining that Fire and Police would be underpaid and would leave the City's employ in droves.

[mam2009]

...Government service should not be a jobs program. Government offices should be as lean and efficient as possible. That is what they mean by "running it like a business".

Think of government as a parasite. Successful parasites take as little from the host [[public) as possible so that the host stays healthy and can continue to feed the parasite.

Soooo...if the hosts keep jumping ship [[population decline) faster than new hosts can be found, how does the parasite stay alive? Visualizing the government as a parasite is a bit disengenuous anyway. Government exists to provide basic services to the masses, not suck the life out of its citizens. Detroit's government just seems parasitic because it has been abandoned by the masses and now takes far more from its citizens than it gives back because there are fewer people who contribute tax money to the operation of government. If all of the people who began leaving Detroit beginning in the early 1950's would just come back, all of our problems would be solved, right? From what I hear, the city was such a great place to live at the time, right? I wonder what made people begin to leave then [[in the '50's)...

[Hermod]

From what I hear, the city was such a great place to live at the time, right? I wonder what made people begin to leave then [[in the '50's)...

Ummm, the city quit being such a great place to live? Judging from the past census, it is an even worse place to live now. Detroit has a great location. When things hit total bottom, "urban pioneers" will slowly trickle back in and reclaim civilization from the rubble. Things just haven't hit bottom yet.

[mam2009]

Ummm, the city quit being such a great place to live? Judging from the past census, it is an even worse place to live now. Detroit has a great location. When things hit total bottom, "urban pioneers" will slowly trickle back in and reclaim civilization from the rubble. Things just haven't hit bottom yet.

Buuuut...what made it stop being such a great place to live in the '50's? Just come on back "home" everybody!

[mam2009]

Hahaha. Oh, yes. Government is the problem. I know. I'm going to guess that, every day, you wake up to an alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the U.S. Department of Energy. Then you take a shower in the clean water provided by the municipal water utility. Then you turn on the radio to one of the FCC-regulated channels to see what the National Weather Service of the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration has determined the weather will be like, using satellites designed, built and launched by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. Then you eat a breakfast of U.S. Department of Agriculture-inspected food and taking the drugs that have been determined safe by the Food and Drug Administration.

Then, at the appropriate time, as regulated by U.S. Congress and kept accurate by the National Institute of Standards and Technology, as well as the U.S. Naval Observatory, you get into your National Highway Traffic Safety Administration-approved auto and set out to work on the roads built by local, state and federal departments of transportation. Before leaving the house, you drop any mail that has to be sent out via the U.S. Postal Service. Then you drop the kids off at public school, and possibly stop to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the Environmental Protection Agency, using legal tender issued by the Federal Reserve Bank.

After work, I bet you drive your NHTSA car back home on DOT roads, to a house that didn't burn down thanks to local and state building codes and mandatory government inspections. It most probably was not been robbed, thanks to the local police department.

Then, after all that, you log onto the Internet, developed by the Pentagon, and post all about how government is bad. Very bad. No socialism for me, thank you very much!

Of course, all this anti-government talk is really just coded language. You really aren't anti-government if you live like this. I bet you� are actually very pro-government, as least as it relates to improving your life and ensuring your safety and comfort.

Often, I find that people angry about "socialism" are actually opposed to is a government that improves the lives of all people. Or other people. Or those people.

But that wouldn't be you, would it?

I think I'm in love...

[cla1945]

I think I'm in love...

FYI:

http://rreynoso.com/blog/contact-rey/

[Kevgoblue]

It's not about not paying any taxes or even extremely low taxes. It's about using the taxes we pay efficiently. Detroit, the example we're looking at now, Has not used the money it has received efficiently. The city has been losing population for the last 60 years, Instead of planning for the continueing population losses they continue to plan for growth and continue to raise taxes killing the growth.
I wouldn't mind if current tax dollars were going to current operating expenses. Unfortunately current tax dollars are mostly going to pay for previous years debt and future retirement expenses.

As much as you all don't want to admit it. Cities are in competition with each other. The most efficient cities will continue to grow. The cities that have terrible leadership, will continue to fail. Since Detroit offers zero advantages over the neighboring cities, It will continue to fail. Detroit will not succeed until it gets it's cost in line with it's potential revenue.

You've got conflicting opinions here.

On one hand Detroit is losing population because they don't use their tax revenue efficiently and have terrible leadership. Because they're raising taxes and not cutting enough costs [[services). They need to cut more. On the other hand cities are in constant competition with each other and because Detroit doesn't offer the level of services of the outlying suburbs they will continue to lose population. ????? Well based on this argument, how can the city ever compete?

And is the cause of Detroit's financial woes incompetence or a decaying tax base? Remember, you stated the city has been losing residents for 60 years. Many of those people were police officers, fire fighters, teachers, park maintenance, etc. People on the city's payroll. People who are currently costing the city disproportionately large amounts of money in pension and health care obligations. People who no longer live in the city, pay taxes in the city or contribute to the city's economy. But again, Detroit has to compete with other cities. Cities without huge levels of legacy costs. Cities who can take their current tax revenues and spend it on services for current residents. How exactly is Detroit supposed to effectively compete again?

You say unfortunately current tax dollars are going to pay for previous years' debt and retirement expenses. But these are costs that were incurred years ago. Incurred to ensure YOUR comfort and high levels of services back before everyone left the city. Now that you've left, you want to hand those cost off to others [[the younger generation, who were never recipients of said services) so you can live in a community with cheap taxes. A community that didn't exist, or was sparsely populated, 60 years ago and doesn't have those bills that have come due to be paid.

[downtownguy]

^^ Well said, Kevgoblue.

[ndavies]

They are not competing opinions. The city governments incompetence lead to the population decay. Sensible people voted against the high cost and crappy quality of the government with their feet and left. It was far simpler than reoganizing government.

The city government wants you to believe the people left due to race. Most left due to the city's ongoing mismanagement, and rising costs. Businesses ran from the onerous regulations and the increased burden of taxes.

The city has to improve services while lowering taxes. That is the only way out of this. Lowering taxes and increasing services are not mutually exclusive. You need to cut out all the dead weight and long term crappy contracts. You need to reduce the huge buraucratic overhead.

This has been going on for 60 years. The city peaked in population just after WWII. The only solutions the city keeps coming back too is methods to maintain tax revenue. IF instead of trying to maintain constant tax revenue they actually did the cutting that.s been needded for 60 years, they may have a growing city now.

[Detroitnerd]

They are not competing opinions. The city governments incompetence lead to the population decay. Sensible people voted against the high cost and crappy quality of the government with their feet and left. It was far simpler than reoganizing government.

The city government wants you to believe the people left due to race. Most left due to the city's ongoing mismanagement, and rising costs. Businesses ran from the onerous regulations and the increased burden of taxes.

The city has to improve services while lowering taxes. That is the only way out of this. Lowering taxes and increasing services are not mutually exclusive. You need to cut out all the dead weight and long term crappy contracts. You need to reduce the huge buraucratic overhead.

This has been going on for 60 years. The city peaked in population just after WWII. The only solutions the city keeps coming back too is methods to maintain tax revenue. IF instead of trying to maintain constant tax revenue they actually did the cutting that.s been needded for 60 years, they may have a growing city now.

Man, you don't know the history, you don't acknowledge the racial divide, you don't want to face reality one bit if it interferes with the point you want to make.

But then your actual point is that Detroit has to enhance services while lowering taxes? Then I realize it's all a joke. Hahahaha. You're a real comedian, you are. You had me going for a second. I must admit, your caricature of a clueless suburbanite is dead-on and very funny!

[iheartthed]

And is the cause of Detroit's financial woes incompetence or a decaying tax base? Remember, you stated the city has been losing residents for 60 years. Many of those people were police officers, fire fighters, teachers, park maintenance, etc. People on the city's payroll. People who are currently costing the city disproportionately large amounts of money in pension and health care obligations. People who no longer live in the city, pay taxes in the city or contribute to the city's economy. But again, Detroit has to compete with other cities. Cities without huge levels of legacy costs. Cities who can take their current tax revenues and spend it on services for current residents. How exactly is Detroit supposed to effectively compete again?

He either doesn't know what the hell he's talking about or isn't being honest. I believe it was Lowell who pointed out on another thread that Highland Park's single biggest budget item is pension obligations for retirees, yet not a single one of those retirees currently live in Highland Park. Detroit might still have some retirees living in the city, but the overwhelming majority do not, and not many other people do either, but that's the issue that these cities are dealing with. The government structure in Metro Detroit is the municipal equivalent of a Ponzi scheme.