Construction on the Penske Tech Center for M1 light rail has begun

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Originally Posted by bailey

ok...seriously? By that logic, I'm a billionaire... I just haven't properly funded my accounts.

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It's more than that. The RTA exists. It has a board, it has a staff, and it has a mission. It has [[a little) money. It just doesn't have the money to do anything substantial [[yet, hopefully...vote yes in 2016).

To connect it to your analogy, your bank account has been set up and you are putting money into it, but not enough to make you a billionaire.

Relax...I think most of us agree with you on most of these issues. We're mainly arguing with your incorrect statements and tone.

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Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

www.rtamichigan.org

I'm not sure that's a proper analogy because just getting it created was an amazing feat for Michigan. You're not a billionaire because you don't have the proper funds. The RTA is the RTA because it's created, was given the authority, but we need to give it money to actually do it's job.

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I was being a bit sardonic. The RTA exists on paper because it needed to in order to get the funds from uncle sugar. I'm not sure an RTA truly exists if it has no money to run it. I'm as sure as I can be that the teahadist voters won't fund it. Its only saving grace is that it's going to go on the ballot during a potus year.


Regarding the tone... I'm really not upset or angry.... just profoundly disappointed that a gigantic opportunity was missed and I'm a bit tired of all the rah rahing about somethign that barely qualifies as a half measure. Especially since the guys running the RTA are selling a plan for BRT everywhere.

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Originally Posted by bailey

...3.3 miles of trolley on the regions busiest bus lines. That COULD already be used by those students, workers and residents and visitors if the busses actually ran on time and if they didn't have an aversion to riding on the bus with the poors. Of course, the poors will be riding the trolley too and that trolley will still be stuck in the same traffic behind the bus that's stalled out in the right lane....so not sure if we'll see the magical explosion of riders on non game/special event day. The backbone of the ridership is the folks that would have been on the bus.

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Gee, where do we start:

I don't remember the details of the route timetables, but this is a short haul [[3.3M) system with frequent trips.

I'm not sure how it can be compared to a route which might be say 8 miles long and runs less frequently.

Common sense suggests that a bus or light rail system which runs a short distance and frequently is more likely to have on time performance then one which is longer and runs less frequently.

I would assume there is some kind of mathematical function [[curvilinear, I'm pretty sure) which would describe the relationship between length of the route and on time performance. [That is NOT analogous to flying non-stop from DTW to Las Vegas, for example, where a longer flight is more likely to be on time]. As the trips get longer and longer the percentage of on time trips would decline significantly.

To reach the targeted ridership, the system needs to 1). have frequent service [[timetable), 2). be reliable, 3). provide a pleasant travel experience, 4). and be at a fair cost [[price per trip).

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Originally Posted by emu steve

Gee, where do we start:

I don't remember the details of the route timetables, but this is a short haul [[3.3M) system with frequent trips.

I'm not sure how it can be compared to a route which might be say 8 miles long and runs less frequently.

Common sense suggests that a bus or light rail system which runs a short distance and frequently is more likely to have on time performance then one which is longer and runs less frequently.

I would assume there is some kind of mathematical function [[curvilinear, I'm pretty sure) which would describe the relationship between length of the route and on time performance. [That is NOT analogous to flying non-stop from DTW to Las Vegas, for example, where a longer flight is more likely to be on time]. As the trips get longer and longer the percentage of on time trips would decline significantly.

To reach the targeted ridership, the system needs to 1). have frequent service [[timetable), 2). be reliable, 3). provide a pleasant travel experience, 4). and be at a fair cost [[price per trip).

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It isn't the distance, it is the station stops. AMTRAK is Deerfield Beach usually has about a ten minute stop, but if there is a long line of people to board or if there is a wheelchair which requires the station personnel to set up and use the real Rube Goldberg wheelchair elevator, the train may be in the station more than half an hour.

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Originally Posted by bailey

I was being a bit sardonic. The RTA exists on paper because it needed to in order to get the funds from uncle sugar. I'm not sure an RTA truly exists if it has no money to run it. I'm as sure as I can be that the teahadist voters won't fund it. Its only saving grace is that it's going to go on the ballot during a potus year.


Regarding the tone... I'm really not upset or angry.... just profoundly disappointed that a gigantic opportunity was missed and I'm a bit tired of all the rah rahing about somethign that barely qualifies as a half measure. Especially since the guys running the RTA are selling a plan for BRT everywhere.

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So going with your money analogy, if a homeless person has no money, does s/he actually exist?

And you're right the teahadists won't fund which is why we need to outvote them next November.

And I feel you on your last paragraph, but since DDOT has barely any money to run bus service I don't blame them for quitting DTOGS. I really do admire the private sector for steeping up on this, cause then it makes the teahadists shut about about "if there's demand then the private sector should build it!" noise.

Here is a photo update regarding the project:

Attachment 25892

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Originally Posted by emu steve

Good.

Bye the way, the M-1 naysayers have another crow breakfast today. :p

The important thing for revitalizing Woodward Ave. from the river to... is that something appealing be on as many blocks fronting Woodward as possible [[which are developable).

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Had construction begun on Woodward between Jefferson and Campus Martius yet?

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Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

So going with your money analogy, if a homeless person has no money, does s/he actually exist?

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They exist, but they aren't exactly "relevant"

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And you're right the teahadists won't fund which is why we need to outvote them next November.

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sure, but that raises the larger [[and I think we're going way off the topic here...but whatever) question of; why? If the RTA plan is a stupid one....isn't this the time to abort this thing?

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I really do admire the private sector for steeping up on this, cause then it makes the teahadists shut about about "if there's demand then the private sector should build it!" noise.

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and that would be all well and good, if the private sector was going to keep it. but they aren't . They paid for it, [[with some assistance) and they dictated the design regardless of how it would work in the real world, scale, or fit within a regional plan and they're going to dump it in all our laps shortly. But again that really doesn't matter because the RTA's "plan" is all BRT all the time....with maybe a slow train kind of going to the airport...maybe... if they can figure out how to get people from the terminal to where the tracks actually are.

I know the RTA, SEMCOG, DDOT, SMART, M-1 Folks and the various governmental entities all have a very difficult job to do as there has never been a multi modal regional mass transit system ever built anywhere else in the history of the world so I get that they need to sort of make it up as they go along...

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Originally Posted by bailey

They exist, but they aren't exactly "relevant"

sure, but that raises the larger [[and I think we're going way off the topic here...but whatever) question of; why? If the RTA plan is a stupid one....isn't this the time to abort this thing?


and that would be all well and good, if the private sector was going to keep it. but they aren't . They paid for it, [[with some assistance) and they dictated the design regardless of how it would work in the real world, scale, or fit within a regional plan and they're going to dump it in all our laps shortly. But again that really doesn't matter because the RTA's "plan" is all BRT all the time....with maybe a slow train kind of going to the airport...maybe... if they can figure out how to get people from the terminal to where the tracks actually are.

I know the RTA, SEMCOG, DDOT, SMART, M-1 Folks and the various governmental entities all have a very difficult job to do as there has never been a multi modal regional mass transit system ever built anywhere else in the history of the world so I get that they need to sort of make it up as they go along...

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Oh I forgot the issue of homelessness wasn't relevant. I guess we can forget about them now.

Why would we abort the RTA? It's what we need to lobby for federal funds. We haven't even seen the RTA plan because they haven't formalized it yet. Any plan brought about by Hertel or SEMCOG'S RTCC is not the RTA plan [[BRT, etc). If you really do believe in public transit, you wouldn't say that.

And of course Gilbert or Penske aren't going to keep it, the RTA is going to keep it. It's PUBLIC transportation. And it does work in the real world because streetcars are used the world over from Portland to Prague to Melbourne. We're not using some experimental mode, like the People Mover was, streetcars are just as used as buses around the globe.

And the last paragraph is probably sarcastic or you're just inept.

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Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

Oh I forgot the issue of homelessness wasn't relevant. I guess we can forget about them now.

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the homeless are an "issue" , but you compared a homeless person to an unfunded agency and asked if they "exist". They exist, but without funds neither is relevant in any way other to be an "issue".

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Why would we abort the RTA? It's what we need to lobby for federal funds. We haven't even seen the RTA plan because they haven't formalized it yet. Any plan brought about by Hertel or SEMCOG'S RTCC is not the RTA plan [[BRT, etc). If you really do believe in public transit, you wouldn't say that.

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I believe in public transit. buses dressed up like trains is not an improvement.

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Ford, 53, officially began last month as the first executive of the new RTA, and is moving quickly. He's held countless meetings with political leaders and transportation advocates in Macomb, Wayne and Oakland — three of the four counties in the RTA. He has also met with the heads of all the transit agencies such as SMART and DDOT. Washtenaw County, where he was head of the Ann Arbor Area Transit Authority, is the fourth in the RTA.
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Ford's task is not going to be easy because valuable time has passed since the agency was created two years ago ago. It leaves Ford with less than two years to sell to the public the millage to fund the RTA and a bus rapid transit project from Detroit to Pontiac up Woodward Avenue.

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And of course Gilbert or Penske aren't going to keep it, the RTA is going to keep it. It's PUBLIC transportation. And it does work in the real world because streetcars are used the world over from Portland to Prague to Melbourne. We're not using some experimental mode, like the People Mover was, streetcars are just as used as buses around the globe.

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If it's public transportation, then the public should have guided its construction. not one thing should have been done without an actual regional plan and that plan being implemented by a regional authority. Instead we have a random trolley...and we have an unfunded authority.. and we have two bus systems...with a third BRT system to allegedly come..and still no plan.

But yes, they are really nice street cars serving a tiny portion of one of the region's many major thoroughfares .. You and I are not in disagreement there.

My point was how do you sell a millage to some guy in the burbs to pay for that snazy street car and for new buses that are dressed up to look like trains he'll never use when he can't get a local bus to take him to the eye doctor?

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And the last paragraph is probably sarcastic or you're just inept.

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It is sarcasm... and it's not me that's inept.

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Originally Posted by bailey

My point was how do you sell a millage to some guy in the burbs to pay for that snazy street car and for new buses that are dressed up to look like trains he'll never use when he can't get a local bus to take him to the eye doctor?

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You tell that man that the millage is for everyone, including him. It's there in order to build an urban transit system, full of buses and trams as well as a commuter system in order to get suburbanites into the inner city and back out as an alternative to driving. All the while, it will spur economic development and not only help retain the younger generations to stay but help attract outsiders to live here. Again, some people will never buy into that but I truly believe they're a minority.

I think you're over-analyzing the situation. Despite the fact we have two bus systems, so does Chicago. We can have two systems, we just need them to coordinate better. The third BRT won't be created until the RTA has the full power [[b/c of the funds).

I am not the one inept either. The Frank Rizzos of the tri-county area are the ones inept.

It would have been nice to have seen something a bit more creative. Not a big fan of the design, but given that they are working on a budget, I can understand why they didn't go all-out on this aspect of the project.

People, it's an operations/rail yard center, this isn't supposed to be the Taj Mahal. It looks functional and neat.

are there going to be any new retail/residential developments around this station?

m1 construction has fouled up woodward so bad, i cant imagine how its going to work when its in. how many times does it change lanes?

they should have built it on john r. at least that road has less traffic.

woodward is going to be a circus.

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Originally Posted by compn

m1 construction has fouled up woodward so bad, i cant imagine how its going to work when its in. how many times does it change lanes?

they should have built it on john r. at least that road has less traffic.

woodward is going to be a circus.

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Woodward a circus?! What a great thing that would be! Like in the old days!

Answering your question: the streetcar changes lanes once in each direction, with a special traffic signal.

Nobody ever considered building the line on any road except Woodward, and for very good reasons. If cars want to detour around Woodward, hey, great idea.

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Week 30: In addition to land excavation and other preparatory work at the Penske Tech Center site, third party utility work continued in Midtown and the North End/New Center neighborhoods. Light pole foundations were installed in Midtown, and water main work occurred in the North End. Crews continued to make progress on the rebuild of the I-94 and I-75 Woodward Ave. overpass bridges.

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Construction alert! Our partners at DTE Energy will begin work related to their duct bank installation this morning until March 16th. E. Canfield St. at Woodward Ave. will be closed to vehicular traffic for this project.

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Some updates from https://www.facebook.com/M1RAIL

I never knew water utilities were this deep under the ground.