Michigan's same sex marriage ban declared unconstitutional

[sumas]

Sometimes I just skim threads, but this one I read every post. Sometimes I felt like crying. What is so hard to understand, "equal rights under the Law".

I don't expect people to examine my sex life nor I theirs. We have 39 nine years married and 42 together. Two sons.We have many gay friends with the same track record. Let it go people!

Oops, forgot, dump the old people comments. Education is the answer to bias.

[Scottathew]

When the people of Michigan vote against same sex marriage that was real democracy and fair. When some judge decides to take away my vote and the people of Michigan's voting rights about banning same sex marriages. That is not democracy. By the way when two wolves and the sheep talk about what's for dinner, who will be dinner? One who is getting fleeced.

What if the people of Michigan voted against Free Speech? What if the people of Michigan voted to allow slavery?

The vote would not matter because it conflicts with the United States Constitution, which trumps anything we do at a state level.

The argument here is that ban on gay marriage conflicts with the United States Constitution. The judge agreed.

In this context it doesn't matter what Michigan voters say, because if we're in conflict with the United States Constitution, the United States Constitution wins.

[Scottathew]

When same sex marriage becomes law of the land in U.S. All churches will NOT accept those practices. Even though the law is spoken. All churches will fight this matter. Homosexual marriages is a worldly problem. Let the world deal with it and let government perform same sex marriages.

It doesn't matter what churches want and think. This country is governed by laws, not by religion.

Homosexual marriage is a problem in your church. Outside of your church, it's not really any of your business. Your church has the right to refuse to perform these marriages. Your church should concentrate more on its members, than trying to forces its will on non-members.

[313WX]

What if the people of Michigan voted against Free Speech? What if the people of Michigan voted to allow slavery?

The vote would not matter because it conflicts with the United States Constitution, which trumps anything we do at a state level.

The argument here is that ban on gay marriage conflicts with the United States Constitution. The judge agreed.

In this context it doesn't matter what Michigan voters say, because if we're in conflict with the United States Constitution, the United States Constitution wins.

^^^Reading through this thread, I'm not sure what's so hard to understand about the above post.

[Scottathew]

I think I am being entirely realistic in saying that a ballot initiative to legalize gay marriage would pass easily now in Michigan.

I agree with this statement.

My family, including me, was against gay marriage in 2004 [[I lived at home at that time). Now myself and my parents are for allowing gay marriage.

We know too many people that just want to be happy and free. Many of these folks have started "coming out" recently because attitudes have changed from ridiculing those who are gay, to now ridiculing those who hate. They're gay, they didn't make a choice to be gay, it's just the way they are. Let's stop punishing people for this.

[Danny]

So which right of YOURS would you be OK with the majority voting away?

When the right of voting in America is the people's right. I will vote along with them. For it is law of the U.S. Constitution. My vote and the people's vote of the great state of Michigan whether to keep same sex marriage legal or illegal was constitutional legal. The People of Michigan vote that same sex marriages is illegal the law will be carried out. No court of law should say that the people's vote to make same sex marriages is unconstitutional or constitutional without fact finding.


Same goes with U.S. Supreme Court decision from making segregation legal or illegal or abortion legal or illegal. Fact finding make segregation the law of the land some U.S. States and its cities become illegal do it this research in the U.S. constitution. 'ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL'. and looking at the 13th Amendment of the Bill of Rights DENYING BLACKS TO VOTE for segregation. So the people's vote to make segregation the law of the land doesn't count.


Some goes with Abortion cases. The U.S. Supreme Court fact finding in the U.S. Constitution sought no law that anyone female can abort their fetus. But the fact finding in the U.S. Constitution states that violent crime in rape cases is illegal. Therefore abortion is legal. The people's vote to make abortion legal or illegal the law of the land can count. The courts can't make that abortion law unconstitutional without interpreting U.S. Constitutional law that says 'Congress, states or cities shall not make any laws---bla, bla, bla!'


So what these two examples has to do for legalizing same sex marriages:


1. Same Sex marriages in the great State of Michigan was a propose law from Lansing or some homosexual nutcase!


2. Lansing put in the law into the people's vote.


3. The people voted that same sex marriages in Michigan will be illegal. It's over and done.


4. Having same sex marriages declared unconstitutional is unjust. Now if Lansing passes law making same sex marriages either legal or illegal the State Supreme Courts can make a ruling based on person[[s) appeal and fact finding. That will be the right thing.


Now my vote and the people's vote doesn't count.

When I been heard from the those Lesbian couple from Hazel Park saying that just want to adopt their kids. They can not because their not legally married in the State of Michigan. They should propose to law to make them adopt their kids if they not legally married and the leave the same sex marriage ruling alone. That law should be put into the people's vote. If its legal or illegal is done. If it's unjust to them, present their appeal to Michigan State Supreme Court in Lansing. The judges will fact find it and decides whether that law is legal or illegal. The tricky part is judges will have a hard time interpreting U.S. or State Constitution between the people's vote and their right. Therefore ruling that the law by people's vote is constitutional and it can not be unconstitutional. But if Lansing Legislature make the law either legal or illegal for their vote and the people's vote. The U.S. or State Supreme Court will rule it either constitutional or unconstitutional.

Right now the Michigan State Supreme Court judge didn't fact find any law interpreting from U.S. and State constitution about the people's vote to either make the same sex marriages legal or illegal. They just ahead and declare it unconstitutional. That is unfair and unjust. Those Lesbian couple took my vote and the people's vote away because they can married, go an adoption agency so they have their kids and tell them you have two mommies. They could raise their kids fine here without going through any legal battles against over 9 million Michiganders. If they don't like this ruling, go to a state that has it and raise their kids there. Michigan one day will be same sex marriage free. If same sex marriage are legal in this state. Let those homosexuals get married government offices. All churches, synagogues and mosques will NOT perform same sex marriages even if the law says you must perform homosexual marriages.

It's an abomination and God will not dwell in any vessel in their sins.

[bailey]

Awesome and compelling points MIB, speaking to the many layers of this complex and sensitive issue. .....

I've really tried not to post on this but I'm sorry, this one is just the last straw.

None of his points were awesome or compelling, neither are yours. They are misinformed and frankly repugnant.

You are not caring and good if you are in anyway upset by these rulings. Why? because you don't have that excuse anymore. It's been explained to you and your ilk over and over and over how you are wrong and how your "justifications" fail even the most deferential tests of constitutionality. There was a time where you could wring your hands and say..."well there are two sides". That time has passed. I'm sorry if this is "uncivil" but civility has been tried. Own your bigotry... it's fine to be one.. you have that freedom in this country.

Ignorance is fine. People are uniformed on loads of topics. This is willful, deliberate obfuscation and denial of fact.

With regard to Public Accommodations laws, we have 60 years of precedent on the CRA and it's progeny in public accommodations laws. There is not now, nor has there ever been a "strongly held religious belief" exception to those laws.

End of Debate...its' settled law. .... frankly, I don't why I'm even responding as you've cited Brietbart. Clearly you have no intention of actually understanding the issue past partisan talking points desperately seeking to justify retrograde bigotry.

But for your information as you won't read this on Brietbart, Currently only a small minority of states protect sexual orientation under their PA laws. Michigan is not one of them.. those cupcake makers could move here and hang out a sign saying NO GAYS ALLOWED and be free to do so. Colorado, Oregon, California DO have those protections. This is not a difficult concept for anyone but religious fanatics, but when you hang out a shingle and do business in this country, you agree to play by certain rules. either play by them or quit. It's really that simple.

And before you spout off about churches being forced to perform marriages... stop it. IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. No church has EVER been forced by the state to alter it's doctrine in the United States without a compelling state interest involved and that interest evaluated under the strictest of scrutiny. So...human sacrifice is off the table. Snake handling or not allowing Black people as members is fine [[see Mormon Church) or not sending your kids to school, catholics don't have to marry jews or divorced people...etc..

With regard to the ballot initiatives and the "will of the people", again it's very fucking simple. ... the US Constitution is the supreme law of this land. The people of the state of Michigan could get together and pass a law to re institute the ban on miscegenation or resurrect Jim Crow laws and could pass those laws by 99% and each time, their "unified voice" and "democratic vote" ...even if based on their strongly held religious beliefs about the mixing of the races... would be dismissed by the Federal Courts as a measure that violated the constitutional guarantees contained in the US Constitution.

But but...the will of the PEEEEEOPle!?!? Get it through your heads that what you are advocating for is mob rule. We do not have that here. Primarily because the founding fathers understood that the vast majority of the population were uneducated. they understood that sometimes a "majority" simply means all the stupid people are on the same side. Our entire system of government is geared to protect minority rights.

I don't get why this basic civics lesson is willfully ignored by you people.

You know what you sound like? Not to go all goodwins law here but you sound like a holocaust minimizor. "Hitler was a bad guy..we all agree...but even for his evil, good and decent people can recognize his contributions to society in the development of the auto bahn and the VW bug, and rocket technology, so he wasn't THAT bad. " I often wonder if you people actually listen to yourselves outside of your echochamber media feeds like Fox and RedState...et al. Seriously... come out of the bubble and look around. Its not at all scary.

There are NO good and decent people that think black people should be working in the fields or denied equal rights under the law. It took 100 years or so to get here on that point... I'm guessing due to the speed of information sharing these days, we'll cut that by 50 or so. Clearly the message has a deep set fortress of denial to penetrate.

In the end though, you will be looked back on as those "good and decent" folks that stood for segregation. You'll be looked at with pity and wonderment at sheer commitment to your staggering, and willful ignorance.

[bailey]

Originally Posted by 48307What if the people of Michigan voted against Free Speech? What if the people of Michigan voted to allow slavery?

The vote would not matter because it conflicts with the United States Constitution, which trumps anything we do at a state level.

The argument here is that ban on gay marriage conflicts with the United States Constitution. The judge agreed.


In this context it doesn't matter what Michigan voters say, because if we're in conflict with the United States Constitution, the United States Constitution wins.

^^^Reading through this thread, I'm not sure what's so hard to understand about the above post.

because that way bigots can say they are just all about the "democratic process" and not about bigotry.

[surenowinlife]

"The most violent element in society today is ignornace"

[313WX]

because that way bigots can say they are just all about the "democratic process" and not about bigotry.

And the hypocrisy is just priceless as well.

Some of the exact people arguing against the litigation process for the same-sex marriage ban because they supposedly believe it tramples over the democratic process were perfectly ok with the courts and the Michigan legislature overriding the voters of Michigan and the voters of Detroit's will to not have appointed EMs.

[Danny]

It doesn't matter what churches want and think. This country is governed by laws, not by religion.

Homosexual marriage is a problem in your church. Outside of your church, it's not really any of your business. Your church has the right to refuse to perform these marriages. Your church should concentrate more on its members, than trying to forces its will on non-members.

Therefore all churches, synagogues and mosques will not support any government politician who supports homosexual marriages. If their secrets is out.

[bailey]

And the hypocrisy is just priceless as well.

Some of the exact people arguing against the litigation process for the same-sex marriage ban because they supposedly believe it tramples over the democratic process were perfectly ok with the courts and the Michigan legislature overriding the voters of Michigan and the voters of Detroit's will to not have appointed EMs.

...appending it to be bigots and concern trolls.

[noise]

I've really tried not to post on this but I'm sorry, this one is just the last straw.

None of his points were awesome or compelling, neither are yours. They are misinformed and frankly repugnant.

You are not caring and good if you are in anyway upset by these rulings. Why? because you don't have that excuse anymore. It's been explained to you and your ilk over and over and over how you are wrong and how your "justifications" fail even the most deferential tests of constitutionality. There was a time where you could wring your hands and say..."well there are two sides". That time has passed. I'm sorry if this is "uncivil" but civility has been tried.

Ignorance is fine. People are uniformed on loads of topics. This is willful, deliberate obfuscation and denial of fact.

With regard to Public Accommodations laws, we have 60 years of precedent on the CRA and it's progeny in public accommodations laws. There is not now, nor has there ever been a "strongly held religious belief" exception to those laws.

End of Debate...its' settled law. .... frankly, I don't why I'm even responding as you've cited Brietbart. Clearly you have no intention of actually understanding the issue past partisan talking points desperately seeking to justify retrograde bigotry.

But for your information as you won't read this on Brietbart, Currently only a small minority of states protect sexual orientation under their PA laws. Michigan is not one of them.. those cupcake makers could move here and hang out a sign saying NO GAYS ALLOWED and be free to do so. Colorado, Oregon, California DO have those protections. This is not a difficult concept for anyone but religious fanatics, but when you hang out a shingle and do business in this country, you agree to play by certain rules. either play by them or quit. It's really that simple.

And before you spout off about churches being forced to perform marriages... stop it. IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. No church has EVER been forced by the state to alter it's doctrine in the United States without a compelling state interest involved and that interest evaluated under the strictest of scrutiny. So...human sacrifice is off the table. Snake handling or not allowing Black people as members is fine [[see Mormon Church) or not sending your kids to school..all fine.

With regard to the ballot initiatives and the "will of the people", again it's very fucking simple. ... the US Constitution is the supreme law of this land. The people of the state of Michigan could get together and pass a law to re institute the ban on miscegenation or Jim Crow laws and could pass those laws by 99% and each time, their "unified voice" and "democratic vote" ...even if based on their strongly held religious beliefs about the mixing of the races... would be dismissed by the Federal Courts as a measure that violated the constitutional guarantees contained in the US Constitution.

But but...the will of the PEEEEEPle!?!? Get it through your heads that what you are advocating for is mob rule. We do not have that here. Primarily because the founding fathers understood that that the vast majority of the population were uneducated. they understood that sometimes a "majority" simply means all the stupid people are on the same side. Our entire system of government is geared to protect minority rights.

I don't get why this basic civics lesson is willfully ignored by you people.

You know what you sound like? Not to go all goodwins law here but you sound like a holocaust minimizer. "Hitler was a bad guy..we all agree...but even for his evil, good and decent people can recognize his contributions to society in the development of the auto bahn and the VW bug, and rocket technology. " I often wonder if you people actually listen to yourselves outside of your echochamber media feeds like Fox and RedSTae...et al. Seriously... come out of the bubble and look around. Its not at all scary.

There are NO good and decent people that think black people should be working in the fields or denied equal rights under the law. It took 100 years or so to get here on that point... I'm guessing due to the speed of information sharing these days, we'll cut that by 50 or so. Clearly the message has a deep set fortress of denial to penetrate.

In the end though, you will be looked back on as those "good and decent" folks that stood for segregation. You'll be looked at with pity and wonderment at sheer commitment to your staggering, and willful ignorance.

Thanks for this.

Furthermore, I've never seen any of these "complex issues" posted. I know it's because they don't exist, but it's telling that they're only inferred.

Now you'll be called intolerant, you know. I hope you can live with that.

[bailey]

Thanks for this.

Furthermore, I've never seen any of these "complex issues" posted. I know it's because they don't exist, but it's telling that they're only inferred.

Now you'll be called intolerant, you know. I hope you can live with that.

lol. I'll cry myself to sleep every night over it.

[Scottathew]

Therefore all churches, synagogues and mosques will not support any government politician who supports homosexual marriages. If their secrets is out.

And that is most certainly their right to vote for the candidate that they want.

However, I think that voting bloc is not as large as what you think. Even back in 2004 it only got 58.6% yes votes to ban gay marriage, and I think in the past 10 years attitudes have changed greatly, older people who are more likely to oppose it are dying off, and are being replaced by more tolerant voters.

I've even seen right wingers that are my friends start to change their minds when a close friend or a loved one turns out to be gay.

[jcole]

And that is most certainly their right to vote for the candidate that they want.

However, I think that voting bloc is not as large as what you think. Even back in 2004 it only got 58.6% yes votes to ban gay marriage, and I think in the past 10 years attitudes have changed greatly, older people who are more likely to oppose it are dying off, and are being replaced by more tolerant voters.

I've even seen right wingers that are my friends start to change their minds when a close friend or a loved one turns out to be gay.

Not to mention that it won't matter a rat's ass if they ARE voted out; you can't vote out the Constitution.

[313WX]

Not to mention that it won't matter a rat's ass if they ARE voted out; you can't vote out the Constitution.

Well technically, you can amend the constitution...

But I get your point.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

I agree with this statement.

My family, including me, was against gay marriage in 2004 [[I lived at home at that time). Now myself and my parents are for allowing gay marriage.

We know too many people that just want to be happy and free. Many of these folks have started "coming out" recently because attitudes have changed from ridiculing those who are gay, to now ridiculing those who hate. They're gay, they didn't make a choice to be gay, it's just the way they are. Let's stop punishing people for this.

Many people [[including politicians) have "evolved" on this issue. To a large degree, its because of the personal relationships that people have. So many people now realize that they know and respect numerous gay people. I'm sure such and evolution took place with the judge in this case.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...=2014303230067

[313WX]

So from the Court of Appeals minutes ago, the stay on the ban is indefinite.

[Danny]

And that is most certainly their right to vote for the candidate that they want.

However, I think that voting bloc is not as large as what you think. Even back in 2004 it only got 58.6% yes votes to ban gay marriage, and I think in the past 10 years attitudes have changed greatly, older people who are more likely to oppose it are dying off, and are being replaced by more tolerant voters.

I've even seen right wingers that are my friends start to change their minds when a close friend or a loved one turns out to be gay.

World filled with homosexuals. That would end the human race in the flash.

[Danny]

So from the Court of Appeals minutes ago, the stay on the ban is indefinite.

YAY !!!!!!

Like I said to everyone in this forum. Declaring same sex marriage after the people's vote is a violation of the Voting Rights Act. Its unconstitutional for any judge to make any law unconstitutional or constitutional without fact finding in the Bill of Rights of the U.S. Constitution. The Appeals Judge did a great job fact finding. It's over for now.

[rb336]

YAY !!!!!!

Like I said to everyone in this forum. Declaring same sex marriage after the people's vote is a violation of the Voting Rights Act. Its unconstitutional for any judge to make any law unconstitutional or constitutional without fact finding in the Bill of Rights of the U.S. Constitution. The Appeals Judge did a great job fact finding. It's over for now.

Like I asked, and you failed to give a straight answer, which of your rights would you be OK with losing due to a vote of narrow-minded, ignorant individuals?

[Danny]

What if the people of Michigan voted against Free Speech? What if the people of Michigan voted to allow slavery?

The vote would not matter because it conflicts with the United States Constitution, which trumps anything we do at a state level.

The argument here is that ban on gay marriage conflicts with the United States Constitution. The judge agreed.

In this context it doesn't matter what Michigan voters say, because if we're in conflict with the United States Constitution, the United States Constitution wins.

All of things from banning free speech to slavery is over. There be will no law, no people's vote or no supreme court judge to overturn those laws because it's branded in the U.S. Constitution.


The Michigan Legislature wanted the people's vote whether same sex marriage should be legal or illegal. The People of Michigan decided that homosexual marriages are unethical and nasty. No supreme court judge can't make a ruling making any law unconstitutional or constitutional with interpreting and fact finding in the U.S. Constitution. The judge ruling possibly violates the Voting Rights Act. Also the ruling that start out from 2 Lesbian women from Hazel Park can't adopt their kids because that are not legally married was misinterpreted to the lifting of same sex marriage ban. They should have propose a law allowing the Lesbian couple to adopt their kids without going legal loopholes. Too bad for any homosexuals couples who want to get married in our Great State of 'Mich-issippi'. Same sex marriage law was BANNED from the people's vote and was spoken.

[Danny]

Like I asked, and you failed to give a straight answer, which of your rights would you be OK with losing due to a vote of narrow-minded, ignorant individuals?

Doesn't matter it's done for a while. Same sex marriages in Michigan is illegal. It will remain law of the land.

No homosexual marriages allowed here!

No homosexual marriages allowed now!

No homosexual marriages allowed forever!

[Scottathew]

World filled with homosexuals. That would end the human race in the flash.

Not necessarily. People who are gay choose to have kids that are biologically of one of the parents all the time.

Your example of everyone being gay is rather extreme. And even if everyone wanted to be gay, not have kids, and end the human race, it would be their right to do so as free people.