Should undocumented [[illegal) immigrants have drivers license privilege?

[Richard]

I followed your link, and that lead to a paper from which they based the article. The first footnote I followed in the paper referred back to a previous version of this report, which is no longer available, so they give the current version. So, the paper is citing itself as the authority for the base number of immigrant children. In research, that's called making crap up.

In my opinion, given that we just gave up $1.3 trillion in tax revenue for rich people, I figure we can rethink that and have more money to not treat anyone poorly.

The source is a company that compiles financial data into charts and graphs.

You posted that they were making crap up.

It is simple for you to double check,both the federal government and states have the financials for public viewing.

You can prove your accusation by collecting your own budget information from the 35,000 cities then 50 states then read the federal government budget and display your results in rebuttal.

its that simple.

Its kinda hard to pull numbers out of the air in order to make crap up as you put it,when they can easily be verified.

It is that mindset of your post which is why we are where we are at.

Non rich have been collecting IEC for how many years? You do not have to put any in and still collect $6000,how many trillions has that been?

Directing your hate towards the rich is placing blame on everybody else but yourself for your circumstances.

[Richard]

I agree with you. It would be nice if Congress and the executive branch could agree on that.

It appears that it is more profitable not to solve the situation.

DACA was set to expire with no renewal.

Current President offers 1.8 million DACA with a path but they had to go to the end of the line.

In exchange for building a wall that is needed to secure the border.

He really should not have had to offer anything,it was not required,what is required is it is the federal governments responsibility to secure our borders.

He did a compromise that was not exceptable to others,his moment of weakness.He can just transfer the federal funds that is transferred to the cities and states use to offset the costs of illegal immigration.

The previous president used cutting off federal HUD funds to cities that did not implement the mixed neighborhoods initiative,nobody had an issue with that so it is a plausible method.

If a drug gang comes across the border and shoots up a shopping mall guaranteed the cry would be to build a wall,but most of the population that does not live in high immigration states are not really effected by what is going on,outside of paying for it,so they do not see a need to change something that does not effect them,until it does.

The driving down of the wages only really effects the African American community and the poorest,so that part does not matter and it gives the politicians a look of being the savior when they offer $15 per hour and save the day.

[gnome]

Why would anyone want an untrained driver on the road? Everyone has to pass a test to get a DriverÂ’s License. A test tests ones understanding of our laws.

We have enough goofballs who know the laws and still drive like lunatics, we donÂ’t need to add to that lunacy by throwing in untrained and unlicensed drivers.

So IÂ’m in favor of making sure drivers know the rules of the road.

BUT... letÂ’s say you hate people who are here without papers. You hate their culture, language, smell, looks, you hate their clannish behavior. They robbed you of your lunch money, stuffed you in a locker and gave you a swirly in gym class.

They talked bad about your mom, impregnated your dog and slapped the taste right out of your sisterÂ’s mouth.

You donÂ’t like them.

What better way of keeping track of your tormentors than to know their addresses? License plate numbers? Vehicle type?

I would think youÂ’d want to keep a sharp eye on your enemies. Making them have a license seems like a step in the right direction.

[oladub]

Why would anyone want an untrained driver on the road? Everyone has to pass a test to get a DriverÂ’s License. A test tests ones understanding of our laws.

We have enough goofballs who know the laws and still drive like lunatics, we donÂ’t need to add to that lunacy by throwing in untrained and unlicensed drivers.

So IÂ’m in favor of making sure drivers know the rules of the road.

BUT... letÂ’s say you hate people who are here without papers. You hate their culture, language, smell, looks, you hate their clannish behavior. They robbed you of your lunch money, stuffed you in a locker and gave you a swirly in gym class.

They talked bad about your mom, impregnated your dog and slapped the taste right out of your sisterÂ’s mouth.

You donÂ’t like them.

What better way of keeping track of your tormentors than to know their addresses? License plate numbers? Vehicle type?

I would think youÂ’d want to keep a sharp eye on your enemies. Making them have a license seems like a step in the right direction.

No one wants untrained drivers on the road. They might ignore traffic signs like they ignored this on. I think its a fantasy to think that people who ignored this sign will care much about traffic signs.

[archfan]

It appears that it is more profitable not to solve the situation.
...

I think some folks find it more politically profitable to have a bad hombre to point to, than to solve the problem.

...
He did a compromise that was not exceptable to others,his moment of weakness.
...

It takes a really poor negotiator to not get a bill through when you control both houses of Congress.

[Richard]

I think some folks find it more politically profitable to have a bad hombre to point to, than to solve the problem.



It takes a really poor negotiator to not get a bill through when you control both houses of Congress.

So go buy a dozen roses for MS13 and give them a big kiss while you are handing them over,let us know how it worked out,not that you will be able to.

Anybody with a thimble full of common sense knew exactly who he was referring to,but it is abundantly made clear on an hourly basis that common sense no longer exists for some.

Being a poor negotiator has noting to do with it,every politician for the last 50 years,Democrats and Republicans has the exact same speech in thier campaign,verbatim.

It is on u tube going all the way back to Kennedy.

You are lying to yourself if you can honestly say he has not tried to do everything in his power outside of dictatorship in order to secure the border.

But the left would have you believe that the United States President is the almighty one power in control of everything.

How about past president Obama,all of his skills and popularity,what exactly did he accomplish?

Started out by throwing everybody in the streets so they could land cushy jobs with big banks,handles international diplomacy with bags of your cash,kicks the can down the road with DACA by offering false hope,or maybe it was already planned to have Hillary as his replacement and she would have been the nice lady and kicked the can further down the road.

He was a hero of hope and change,no hope and no change and millions left by the wayside sleeping in the streets.

And Your offend by the words of Bad Hombre?

It does not matter anyways,nobody wants a secure border or a solution to immigration,not the politicians nor the citizens that are forced to pay for it.

It just looks Kinda funny when people whine about homelessness,healthcare,skills training,infrastructure,mass transit,rebuilding inner cities and on and on when they do not have a problem spending billions to care for everybody but thier own fellow Americans.

Thats why they will never pass a healthcare for all scheme,we like to spend money on things that make us feel good verses spending money on things that makes us better.

[Wesley Mouch]

Of course the 'undocumented' should be required to have a drivers license and insurance.

The only reason this is controversial is that we use state driver's licenses as a proxy for legal status. The real debate is whether we should document the undocumented.

Unconsidered here is the effect on the term 'undocumented immigrant'. If an irregular immigrant is given a document, a new term will have to be created. I proposed 'driving alien'.

[Canadian Visitor]

I would offer this legal opinion:

https://www.michigancriminalattorney...license_ae247/

It suggests that it is already legal to drive in Michigan on a foreign driver's license, particularly if issued by any nation in the Americans party to a 1943 treaty, which would include Mexico and Canada.

The issue is then narrowed to those who entered the US illegally without every having obtained a driver's license in their home country, [[which might include already born children, too young to have done so), as well as those who simply haven't renewed their license in their previous home countries.

After all, any child of an illegal born in the United States is a US Citizen and therefore would have the right to obtain a legal license in the State of Michigan.

I think recognizing that his applies to a relatively narrow subsection of 'illegals' changes the nature of the conversation somewhat.

But I will take no further position on this issue.

[Johnnny5]

The issue is then narrowed to those who entered the US illegally without every having obtained a driver's license in their home country, [[which might include already born children, too young to have done so), as well as those who simply haven't renewed their license in their previous home countries.

After all, any child of an illegal born in the United States is a US Citizen and therefore would have the right to obtain a legal license in the State of Michigan.

I think recognizing that his applies to a relatively narrow subsection of 'illegals' changes the nature of the conversation somewhat.

I have to disagree. The vast majority of those illegally entering this country though our Southern border may have had photo ID's issued, but most have probably never had formal drivers training or an actual drivers license. Even in my trips to the fairly well off parts of Mexico, few of the working class locals I spoke with had cars as they were far outside of their budget. Among those that have chosen to illegally enter the U.S, I would assume the percentage of those with licenses is even smaller. Even if they did have them, leaving the actual ID's back home would have been prudent when attempting to illegally cross the border.

[gnome]

No one wants untrained drivers on the road. They might ignore traffic signs like they ignored this on. I think its a fantasy to think that people who ignored this sign will care much about traffic signs.

I am not surprised at your comment. It must be tough being so bitter and closed off to other people.

I really feel sorry for you. I am even sorry you will not even consider my observation as anything but an attack.

That is how bitter people react.

[oladub]

Gnome, I side with American workers and taxpayers. Try to have as much consideration for them as you do for illegal non-citizens and economic interests profiting from having an illegal non-citizen caste.

[Meddle]

Skips 85 whatevers ....

A DL is a document, issued by a Government, which makes bearers 'documented'. Which enables them to get jobs easier. Which enables them to pay for housing, commodities and .... taxes.

[Richard]

^ exactly

Years ago somebody within the Fl DMV was busted after producing thousands of IDs for sale on the market.

Go to any Latin American country and kick somebody a few bucks and you can have an official government document statement as to who you are and you can be anybody that you want.

We as citizens have to prove who we are going all the way back to birth.

Immigrants going through the citizenship process receive a extensive and in depth process to verify who they are,including sending agents to interview neighbors in their home country.

Apply for a US visa in some countries and the process can take up to 3 years and you have to prove financial self reliance in your county,neighbors are interviewed,most cases you must have family ties in your home countries,and an extensive background check.

Most cases ones here illegally that are here illegally after overstaying their tourist visa,have had extensive background checks.

The focus on the border and the focus on properly identifying who is in this country is there for a reason,when we became to complacent with that it costs lives.

What is the whole reasoning behind forcing 300,000,000people to abide by the rules while making exceptions for others.

I thought the concept was the same rules apply to everybody,there is no argument anymore,they do not.

[gnome]

Gnome, I side with American workers and taxpayers. Try to have as much consideration for them as you do for illegal non-citizens and economic interests profiting from having an illegal non-citizen caste.

You could make a case that there are no harder American Workers than those from other countries.

I donÂ’t think you can hide behind the flag when that flag was made by generations of foreigners who came here looking for a better life.

My dadÂ’s side came her in 1885 and it took my Oma 30+ years to renounce the Kaiser and put her hand over her heart. 30+ years. She got married, had a litter of children, buried a non-citizen husband and never spoke more than a handful of English phrases.

That same story is told in almost every American family. It is the American experience. It has made us the country we are.

So, you want Oma to be deported because all she wanted was a better life. She wasnÂ’t fleeing persecution. Death threats. Famine. Oppression. She wanted her share of that American wealth.

Just like 11 million in the country tonight without papers.

But those are just facts. Bitterness can blind one to facts or make one selective it the facts they choose to believe.

You want those undocumented workers to hide in the shadows. Work for whatever they can get and thereby drive down the wages of Americans who have been here since there great grandparents sneaked into the country.

That what bitterness can do. It can blind.

[Richard]

The first legal immigrant was processed at Ellis island in 1892 was Ellie Moore a teenager from Ireland.

Why did she process at Ellis Island? Because at that time immigration polices were established and enforced,so she wanted a new start in a new country of opportunity and even as a teenager she wanted to do it the right way.

Is it to much to ask of those seeking opportunities that they will never achieve in thier country to abide by the rules.

It not bitterness against illegals it is disrespectful to the host country to expect sanctuary and not expecting to have to follow the same rules as everybody else.

There are over 2 billion in the world that suffer from poverty there is no way we can absorb the worlds population.

If one is looking for bitterness they can always visit the local jail or prison where thousands are sitting now because they broke the law.

1000s of recent immigrants are nationalized every month becoming US citizens,they went through a process that took years,and they did it with respect to The United States by following the laws.

It is a weak argument to use this country was founded on immigrants,it was but when we became a nation of laws our ancestors also followed the law and stood in line at Ellis island,even after being accepted if they screwed up and broke the law they were punished or deported.

There is bitterness in expecting ones neighbor to follow the law but give a pass to those who wish flaunt it or give them a pass.

[oladub]

gnome, There is no bitterness involved in prioritizing fellow Americans. It's called solidarity; something in short supply among Democrats and Chamber of Commerce Republicans these days. It's a choice.

You also fail to make the distinction between legal and illegal non-citizens. We have a process for allowing in immigrants. Congress establishes a uniform naturalization procedure [[Article 1, Section 8). Not one for illegal non-citizens and another for legal non-citizens. Congress decides - not Oma. Every other type of criminal wants a better life too. That doesn't mean that just because criminals want a better life, they can demand it. Would be immigrants, however, do have the option of applying to immigrate and coming in the front door. My father and all four grandparents were immigrants. I have no ill will toward immigrants. I have misgivings, however toward people who slither in illegally, their employers who profit by hiring them instead of a more expensive American worker, and enablers like yourself, who prioritize criminals and their profiteering employers over working Americans. I never said anything about flags.

You don't understand supply and demand either. It's not that illegal workers hide in the shadows that drives down labor rates. Its that a larger supply of workers vying for the same number of jobs depresses wages.

People who do not respect American immigration laws should not be put in front of the immigration line. They have not provided evidence that they will obey traffic laws any more than border signs.

I disagree with your anti-American worker cliche "there are no harder American Workers than those from other countries". Americans will do any work but not necessarily for illegal alien wages. I've come across all sorts of very hard working Americans. Where have you been? Listening to you, one would think that Americans have never dirtied their hands building, creating, farming or serving in the military.

Thank you though for the armchair psychoanalysis. It was amusing in an elitist sort of way like Hillary deeming Americans workers "a basket of deplorables".

[archfan]

gnome, There is no bitterness involved in prioritizing fellow Americans. It's called solidarity; something in short supply among Democrats and Chamber of Commerce Republicans these days. It's a choice.

So, basically, the majority of Americans don't agree with you?

[oladub]

So, basically, the majority of Americans don't agree with you?[/COLOR]

Taking your comment in the light of ironic humor, you rare probably correct.

Democrats + Chamber of Commerce Republicans = majority for open borders

Formerly lucid Bernie Sanders summed it up, "Should we have a completely open border so that anyone can come in the United States of America? If that were to happen, which I strongly disagree with, there is no question in my mind that that would substantially lower wages in this country."

[Zacha341]

That sounds rather 'Trumpish' of Bernie. Or shall we say just reasonable!----?

Of course open borders would lower wages! Duh!!

[bust]

A few counterpoints, and words of agreement...

Immigrants going through the citizenship process receive a extensive and in depth process to verify who they are,including sending agents to interview neighbors in their home country.

The process is thorough and in depth, but it absolutely does not include sending agents to the applicant's home country, nor interviewing neighbors at all. [[And if it did, can you imagine the expense?)

Apply for a US visa in some countries and the process can take up to 3 years and you have to prove financial self reliance in your county,neighbors are interviewed,most cases you must have family ties in your home countries,and an extensive background check.

What countries interview the applicant's neighbors? The cost and the logistics would be prohibitive. I find this very hard to believe.

Most cases ones here illegally that are here illegally after overstaying their tourist visa,have had extensive background checks.

By far more are here from overstaying their tourist visa than illegally crossing the border. 62% in fact, vs. 38%. You can find more facts and figures here. And among those overstaying their tourist visa, more than twice as many are from Canada as are from anywhere else. Britain is #4, and France also makes the top 10. I suppose the definition of "extensive" is debatable, but most reasonable people would say they have NOT had extensive background checks. Nor would it make sense to submit every tourist wanting to come here on a vacation to one.

The focus on the border and the focus on properly identifying who is in this country is there for a reason,when we became to complacent with that it costs lives.

I agree we must properly control who enters our country, and identify who is here. It's to address the second part of that what the proposal to identify illegal immigrants is intended to do. It's part of a solution to address the real problems, not just more of the divisive rhetoric and false solutions we so often hear.

What is the whole reasoning behind forcing 300,000,000people to abide by the rules while making exceptions for others.

I thought the concept was the same rules apply to everybody,there is no argument anymore,they do not.

I too am against illegal immigration and support playing by the rules. My wife and I have personal experience going through the legal process end to end. It took many years and as many or more thousands of dollars: citizenship application after green card application after visa renewal application after visa application after another. We dotted every i and crossed every t, and it was hard. We would be resentful were the county to put those who come here illegally ahead of people who do it by the book.

There is no doubt our immigration policies need drastic improvement. But we need the best solutions for our real problems, not wasteful measures designed for grossly exaggerated and/or imaginary problems so many politicians and other blowhards want us to believe for our loyalty and votes.

Meanwhile we must continue our proud tradition of showing empathy for those who legitimately seek asylum. That has been and should remain at the core of whom we are as Americans. In our effort to protect America and Americans, let's not lose who we are.

[Richard]

^ in all sincerity welcome to America.

I went through the same thing from the aspect of an American citizen marriage to a foreign national,it did not work out with positive results even after a 15 year process,so I am well aware of a broken system.

Foreign nationals applying for citizenship.
DACA
Those seeking asylum
Those entering the country illegally

Those are all separate categories and each one is a complete discussion on it own.

The state I live in has high categories in all aspects and we are usually one of the first ones to be impacted from when it comes to asylum.

The issue with that is only with the regulations on how much we can absorb.

At any given moment there are over 60,000,000 refugees in flux in the world,how it worked before was the EU decided how to divide them up between the countries,not the individual country.

You now see just about every country on Europe saying,hold on,we cannot do it this way,Italy just told the EU to stop just as the UK did with Brexit,Sweden,Greece etc.

It is not a racist America that takes that stance,it is also the rest of the world saying the same thing,there is a balance between funds advailable to support,the local medical,housing,feeding,the list is long,you just not cannot except a refugee or somebody entering under asylum and throw them in the street.

When a foreign national goes to the US embassy and pays the fee to apply for a tourist visa it takes several months,up to 6,before they receive the Visa.

The process looks at the application and uses a set of guidelines for approval.

Criminal history.
Financial stability,do they have the funds to support themselves while in the US.
What ties does the applicant have in thier country that encourages the applicant to return home.

Family,employment,property ownership and yes even neighborhood ties and interviews.

The US government is well aware that some apply for a tourist visa in order to arrive and circumvent the system,so they have the vetting process.

The airlines will not even sell a one way flight to the US.

The issue at hand is,the securing of the border in order to stop or slow down the flow and fixing a broken system,that really is a patchwork of laws put in place according to the politics of the moment.

When you have somebody that repeatedly crosses the border and is deported multiple times and is still committing felonies in this country it is indicative of a larger problem.

When the airplanes flew into the towers, American citizens spent hundreds of billions in security,passed laws in order improve security,giving up rights that they do not even know they gave up,endured restrictions on thier daily life including having to prove that they are in fact US citizens,standing in line at airports etc.

Amercians excepted that because it made them feel safe,but when it comes to secureing the border it is a racist issue.

We spend a trillion dollars in the name of security so we can just maybe know who is going to attack us next but yet give them easy excess through the southern border.

It makes zero sense,and now that you do not have a clue as to who is coming over your border you want to make it easier and set the path of no resistance,which encourages more of the same.

It has zero to do compassion,racism or who we are.

We lock our doors at night when we go to sleep giving no thought to that process.Why do we do that?

I can go to the big box store at 6 am and there will be 100 plus illegals standing there seeking work,the wage range is from $100 per day down to $25 for the day,the ones that are hungrier then the others will go out to work first at the cheaper wage.

When it comes to driving down wages,it starts within thier own subset,the very numbers of illegals advailable for work drives down thier own wages,before even you get to wages as it refers to US citizens.

[bust]

Lest anyone think my opinion or allegiance is somehow less valid because I'm an immigrant, I'm not. My heritage in the US is long, and the side specifically from Detroit is so long we've lost track.

Richard, since you ignored the points I contested, I presume you concede.

One thing I hope we all can agree on is we want the best possible outcome for America and all Americans.

[Richard]

Lest anyone think my opinion is somehow less valid because I'm an immigrant, I'm not. My heritage in the US is long, and the side specifically from Detroit is so long we've lost track.

Richard, since you ignored the points I contested, I presume you concede.

One thing I hope we all can agree on is we want the best possible outcome for America and all Americans.

You are maybe misunderstanding a bit,we have these discussions for the benefit of everybody.

Your opinion has a lot of merit because you have been through the process and are well aware of the hurdles.

You and I personally can have a discussion and relate,the thing is most Americans do not have a clue about the immigration system and how It operates as a whole,if they do not understand how it works then it becomes pointless for them to either support or not.

Michigan has an estimated 140,000 to 180,000 illegals where as Florida has in excess of 1 million and ranks 5th.

A resident in Michigan is less likely to have thier daily life effected by illegal then in Florida where 71% percent of the population believes illegal immigration has a negative impact.

So actually the entire country is making a decision that mostly has a direct impact on 5 states.

How many people that you know in your state can relate to what you went through in order to receive your citizenship?

I all ready know the answer,because even in a state that has a high illegal immigration population,1 in 20,000 actually even know the process.

I made those numbers up but it is conceivable that it is a very complex process that unless one goes through it they cannot even begin to understand it.

If it does not directly effect somebody they will not understand the impact of.

The early 1920s recession saw the country as a whole campaign to remove millions of illegals,the 1929 stock market crash and following depression also saw millions being deported,even those who had been in the country for many years.

I tried to break down the different categories of immigrants when it applies to immigration as a whole.

The problem is the media and those who try and place all forms of immigration into one basket.

People like to stir the pot,nobody has a problem with legal immigration and those that go through the process.

Nobody has a problem with the children that were brought here by no choice because of decisions of thier parents,they are just saying to go through the process like everybody else had to.

Nobody has a problem with refugees,as long as we know who they are and thier influx is regulated according to what the local economy can absorb.

What people have a problem with is with the illegal immigration aspect.

So everybody takes that one subset opposition and turns it into a racist or hatred against immigration and immigrants as a whole.

The focus is illegal immigration and securing the border first because it makes zero common sense to try and fill a pail of water when it has no bottom in it.

Then you can work on the other paths.

Anybody that stands up and lumps illegal immigration with the entire immigrant community and claims terms like compassion,bigotry,racism,anti immigrant as an argument is just showing that they do not have a clue about the process or is pushing an agenda on the public and capitalizing on the lack of knowledge that the general public has.

They are the ones actually creating hate and divisions and then accusing others of thier own actions.

Yea that is who we are as a country.

[Zacha341]

FIVE*****!! Thank you for sharing your story Bust. This perspective needs to be heard and advanced more, but too often ignored in the 'Far Left vs. Trump' matrix per the rhetoric from both sides.

It's almost as though the legal process of entry has been forgotten - and how those who came that way feel about the subject.

...I too am against illegal immigration and support playing by the rules. My wife and I have personal experience going through the legal process end to end. It took many years and as many or more thousands of dollars: citizenship application after green card application after visa renewal application after visa application after another. We dotted every i and crossed every t, and it was hard. We would be resentful were the county to put those who come here illegally ahead of people who do it by the book.

[Richard]

All the uproar with DACA

Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals[[DACA) is an American immigration policy that allows some individuals with unlawful presence in the United States after being brought to the country as children to receive a renewable two-year period of deferred action from deportation and become eligible for a work permit in the U.S. To be eligible for the program, recipients cannot have felonies or serious misdemeanors on their records. Unlike the proposed DREAM Act, DACA does not provide a path to citizenship for recipients, known as Dreamers.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defe...dhood_Arrivals


DACA was never implemented in order to provide a path to citizenship as we are led to believe.In order to qualify they still had to be within the realm of the law.

The very wording reconises that those applying were in a deportable status.