What is going on at Red Wings arena site?

[middetres]

Sorry, but this whole development will be crap. The same awful crap you get at LCA: over-priced, food-service quality, unimaginative crap . It will only be busy on suburban invasion days & nights, so won't have regular hours, just like what's been there the past 25 years. How fucking tone deaf can Olympia still be after seeing the polar opposite outcomes of Dan Gilbert's development ethos? Absolutely ridiculous that people are still buying into the over-hyped, never or poorly developed shit Olympia does.

[SammyS]

Sorry, but this whole development will be crap. The same awful crap you get at LCA: over-priced, food-service quality, unimaginative crap . It will only be busy on suburban invasion days & nights, so won't have regular hours, just like what's been there the past 25 years. How fucking tone deaf can Olympia still be after seeing the polar opposite outcomes of Dan Gilbert's development ethos? Absolutely ridiculous that people are still buying into the over-hyped, never or poorly developed shit Olympia does.

I highly doubt the next 25 years will be anything like the past 25 years. Hell, the last 5 years looks more like Detroit 100 years ago than it does over the last 50 years.

[middetres]

Hey, I never said it wouldn't be developed, unlike every ancillary development they've promised in the past 3 decades, just that it would be utter pablum like everything else they have a hand in. Just the word "festoon" should make anyone shudder.

[SammyS]

^^
I hear ya, just saying that Detroits demographics are likely to change considerably over the next few decades. I predict a total reversal with the suburbs where more affluent folks with expendable income move in and demand more housing, eateries and entertainment locally. We’re already seeing it with high end condos selling off the plan with little to no discount.

But you’re right, Detroit establishments cannot rely on the suburbs for their revenue. I’m also sure that those who have opened shop downtown recently have already assessed risk and concluded that the gamble is justified.

[Bham1982]

^^
I hear ya, just saying that Detroits demographics are likely to change considerably over the next few decades. I predict a total reversal with the suburbs where more affluent folks with expendable income move in and demand more housing, eateries and entertainment locally. We’re already seeing it with high end condos selling off the plan with little to no discount.

As long as DYes has existed, countless forumers have claimed this dramatic demographic inversion is "right around the corner". So far, not even a nugget of actual data backing any sort of change.

How many "high end condos" have sold in Detroit? Let's see the numbers. How many $1 million and 500k properties sold in a calendar year? Random new subdivisions in places like Novi, Northville, Rochester, with hundreds of homes, start at that range, BTW.

[emu steve]

As long as DYes has existed, countless forumers have claimed this dramatic demographic inversion is "right around the corner". So far, not even a nugget of actual data backing any sort of change.

How many "high end condos" have sold in Detroit? Let's see the numbers. How many $1 million and 500k properties sold in a calendar year? Random new subdivisions in places like Novi, Northville, Rochester, with hundreds of homes, start at that range, BTW.

This should be a great debate. I look forward to reading comments.

Book-Cadillac, SammyS's City Modern, and lest do doubt the savior of Detroit, Mr. Dan Gilbert, high end residences fit for the affluent. The one near New Center [[York and Cass?), etc.

As everyone knows in building, etc. 'Timing is everything.' Move too soon you lose you shirt [[and your behind). Move at the right time, riches are possible. Move too late, you might lose your shirt by over paying for an asset.

So City Modern is being built. The Hudson's site is in its earliest stages.

Some of these discussions remind me of the TOP POST of this thread which I refer below.

[emu steve]

Motor City Muckraker has before and after photos showing no progress since the ground breaking and postponement of zoning approval at the City Council. Construction was supposed to happen this winter. Anybody know what's up?

B'ham 1982: This is the post I refer. Dated January, 2015.

Patience, my friend, patience, B'ham.

Developers build on their schedule not the expectations of posters on a forum. There are many consideration including governmental actions including zone, approvals, tax subsidies, financing, weather, other ongoing projects in the area, design and re-design considerations. [[p.s. I doubt Gilbert has 1B in walking cash sitting with his CFO).

Does anyone doubt that Gilbert will build a premier residential building at the Hudson's site???

If humans could hibernate, I suggest one could hibernate for 24 or 30 months and drive down Woodward from Campus Martius to say Mack then circle back on Cass or say Brush and see the difference.

[Bham1982]

Does anyone doubt that Gilbert will build a premier residential building at the Hudson's site???

I highly, highly doubt there will be anything at the Hudsons site for a few years.

The "groundbreaking" was theatrics. He has no private financing [[though the state and city are falling over themselves offering corporate welfare, before there's even a finalized site plan).

The only way that site gets some gigantic tower is if the state's taxpayers fund it. There's no way in hell he gets a private construction loan.

[Gsgeorge]

I highly, highly doubt there will be anything at the Hudsons site for a few years.

The "groundbreaking" was theatrics. He has no private financing [[though the state and city are falling over themselves offering corporate welfare, before there's even a finalized site plan).

The only way that site gets some gigantic tower is if the state's taxpayers fund it. There's no way in hell he gets a private construction loan.

Have you been down at the site lately? There is a ton of work going on there. Looks mostly like site prep. Moving utilities, removing sidewalks and removing parts of the underground parking. It’s happening. There are tons of people on that site every day.

[1953]

Gilbert follows through on his promises, the Ilitches do not.

We should call that the Woodward Doctrine.

1953

[emu steve]

I highly, highly doubt there will be anything at the Hudsons site for a few years.

The "groundbreaking" was theatrics. He has no private financing [[though the state and city are falling over themselves offering corporate welfare, before there's even a finalized site plan).

The only way that site gets some gigantic tower is if the state's taxpayers fund it. There's no way in hell he gets a private construction loan.

There is an old expression: "Everyone is entitled to their opinion." But I'd like to add a corollary:

"Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but others are entitled NOT to agree [[with it)."

[gencinjay]

This may sound crazy, but why is parking near LCA more expensive than parking near Capital One [[fmrly Verizon Centre)? Kind of a monopoly?

It doesn't have anything to do with a monopoly. Although they have a lot of the parking, they don't have it all. Areas with mass transit don't need the same amount of parking. I went to a Yankees game in the old stadium and parking was only $8 right across the street because most people took public transportation. As you said, you were going to ride the subway. The fact that many of the garages were closed, regardless of it being a holiday, shows that there isn't as much demand for parking at that arena.

[MrChrome]

I found this Facebook page yesterday that I quite enjoy:

https://www.facebook.com/TERRIBLEILITCHES/

I like that the author shows actual examples of promises from 20 years ago not delivered upon. I don't know who writes it.

[emu steve]

It doesn't have anything to do with a monopoly. Although they have a lot of the parking, they don't have it all. Areas with mass transit don't need the same amount of parking. I went to a Yankees game in the old stadium and parking was only $8 right across the street because most people took public transportation. As you said, you were going to ride the subway. The fact that many of the garages were closed, regardless of it being a holiday, shows that there isn't as much demand for parking at that arena.

I agree with you 100%.

In D.C. very few people want to deal with rush hour traffic with the subway takes the spectator to the front door.

In D.C. Capital One Arena [[formerly Verizon Center) is built on top of a subway station as is Madison Square Garden in NYC. Nationals Park is a block from a subway stop. Even FedEx field is 3/4 mile from a subway station [[and it has a LOT MORE vehicles and parking and driving congestion).

Detroit has such an automobile culture and lack of a mass transit culture [[I like a poster's comment that mass transit, such as subways, are dependent on having very concentrated employment centers where the transit can funnel large number of workers to their employment).

[Zads07]

I found this Facebook page yesterday that I quite enjoy:

https://www.facebook.com/TERRIBLEILITCHES/

I like that the author shows actual examples of promises from 20 years ago not delivered upon. I don't know who writes it.

This page provides context and the actual examples of how long Ilitch has been lying to the public. I hope many others read this and see it's been nothing but a lie-factory for Ilitch.

[EGrant]

A lot of the posts on that Facebook page focus on a few renderings from 2013-14 around the arena. While I'm no Ilitch apologist, did the renderings ever imply that all the Foxtown and arena-adjacent developments would be open the same day as the arena? I always figured it would take a few years for the surrounding developments to take shape. Ilitch has not delivered on a ton of promises, but renderings also can change and developments can take time.

[SammyS]

As long as DYes has existed, countless forumers have claimed this dramatic demographic inversion is "right around the corner". So far, not even a nugget of actual data backing any sort of change.

How many "high end condos" have sold in Detroit? Let's see the numbers. How many $1 million and 500k properties sold in a calendar year? Random new subdivisions in places like Novi, Northville, Rochester, with hundreds of homes, start at that range, BTW.

I would venture to say that those high end suburban sales are by those moving within the suburbs. How would you explain the high end Detroit sales? Upgrades? Doubt it. Like myself, I’d say it’s suburbanites moving in. And forget the sales, renters are paying Birmingham rates in midtown alone.

[emu steve]

As long as DYes has existed, countless forumers have claimed this dramatic demographic inversion is "right around the corner". So far, not even a nugget of actual data backing any sort of change.

How many "high end condos" have sold in Detroit? Let's see the numbers. How many $1 million and 500k properties sold in a calendar year? Random new subdivisions in places like Novi, Northville, Rochester, with hundreds of homes, start at that range, BTW.

Freep rebutes B'ham1982:

https://www.freep.com/story/money/20...ive/314826002/

[SammyS]

Freep rebutes B'ham1982:

https://www.freep.com/story/money/20...ive/314826002/

What more can you say

[emu steve]

What more can you say

Sammy, you got to admit B'ham is a clever poster.

We is like the Philadelphia hating NFL fan who posts with 15 minutes to go the Philadelphia Eagles have never won a Super Bowl, etc. etc.

So he goes blowing his horn, stating what is true, etc. knowing that it is true now but won't be for long.

But gets the last lick in while he can be technically still be accurate.

B'ham knows that that 12 months from his posting date that he will, again, be proven a false prophet.

Should there be a prize for any poster who can find a post from B'ham that QLine would never be built???

[Bham1982]

Have you been down at the site lately? There is a ton of work going on there. Looks mostly like site prep. Moving utilities, removing sidewalks and removing parts of the underground parking. It’s happening. There are tons of people on that site every day.

I love your optimism, but there is nothing being built there but a foundation. There are no submitted plans, yet.

But if you think a privately 800-ft tower is about to rise, go with it. That would be, easily a billion dollar loan, something that billionaire developers in NYC with signed tenants would have trouble getting.

It can, easily, take 2-3 years to get private financing for experienced developers for such a tower in the most desirable cities. Not gonna happen.

[Bham1982]

I would venture to say that those high end suburban sales are by those moving within the suburbs. How would you explain the high end Detroit sales? Upgrades? Doubt it. Like myself, I’d say it’s suburbanites moving in. And forget the sales, renters are paying Birmingham rates in midtown alone.

Where's the data? What "high end Detroit sales"? I see one condo sale, in Detroit history, for more than $1 million.

Every single year, there are like 400 metro-area $1 million+ home sales. If there's some "great inversion" of wealth, then why are all the high-end home sales in the sprawl?

[dtowncitylover]

Guys, why haven't you learned that Bham knows all and obviously everything he says is to be taken seriously and without reproach? Therefore, it's better to just ignore him because we are futile to his omniscient power.

[SammyS]

Where's the data? What "high end Detroit sales"? I see one condo sale, in Detroit history, for more than $1 million.

Every single year, there are like 400 metro-area $1 million+ home sales. If there's some "great inversion" of wealth, then why are all the high-end home sales in the sprawl?

Here’s one data point or should I say 66. Average price, ~$600k. 10% non refundable down payment up to a year in advance. Phase 3 not even open yet which will include at least 1 TH >$1M.

Would you have believed that 5 years ago? Have we already hit the apex?

[Zads07]

Curbed Detroit put together a small sample of street view pictures of demolition's by Ilitch in the Cass Corridor and Foxtown.

https://detroit.curbed.com/2018/2/23...e-parking-lots