Should undocumented [[illegal) immigrants have drivers license privilege?

[Zacha341]

Just jokes... Actually I liked the ride as well! You see far more!

But for speed and long distance give me an aircraft!

[One Shot]

NO! And there doesn’t need to be discussions why! This is completely idiotic!

[Jason]

For the sake of convenience, we have our IDs and driver's licenses on the same card. If you don't have a driver's license you can get a state ID card.

The driver's license part of it is there so that you can have it on you while you're driving, to prove that you're licensed to drive. The reason we require people to be licensed to drive is to ensure everyone knows road laws and how to drive, because cars are dangerous.

I don't see how citizenship is related to the issue of being licensed to drive, because driving is not a right that is related to citizenship status. Canada and Mexico respect American drivers licenses, and there are also rules about when a foreign driver's license is or isn't acceptable.


In terms of "identification", I'm not so sure. Does the state really have the ability/authority to determine who someone is? And then issue proof of that identity? For Americans there are records and documents and other information about everyone which the state can use to verify who someone is, but how is the state of Michigan supposed to confirm that about some random person from some random country?

[Zacha341]

Undocumented [[illegal) no. Years back confirmation for citizens used to start with having a birth certificate, and social security card. Or a passport.

Years back my elder great aunt managing for decades without 'unofficial' ID, upon spouses death, insurance and medical claims had to get State ID. It was initially tough as she was born at home and info sketchy. The whole process took a couple of months and a few visits to the Secretary of States office.

List of what's currently required:

https://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,4670,...3197--,00.html

https://www.michigan.gov/documents/s...8_222146_7.pdf

...how is the state of Michigan supposed to confirm that about some random person from some random country?

[douglasm]

I'm going to ask a dumb question that will show I live out of state....

Are you REQUIRED by Michigan law to carry an ID? And if so, what?

I don't drive. After my stroke, I gave up my drivers license and although I can get a state [[Washington) issued ID card, there is no requirement under state or federal law that I must get one. Historically, drivers licenses are NOT "ID", so why pay the state for something I don't
need".

[Honky Tonk]

^ do you feel that you are going to be stigmatized because you took the bus?

As much as I like to drive,it was more enjoyable to take Amtrak or the bus because you actually get to see what you were missing while concentrating on driving.

The bus kinda killed it when they eliminated all the small town stops though,Amtrak is still makes it cool to stop in some tiny town at a terminal that looks like it is stuck in the 1930s.

A short story. Taking a Greyhound bus to Oberlin, [[years ago) we were told we would be changing buses @ midpoint. We stopped in the middle of nowhere in OH next to a farm. There was a guy on a tractor plowing the field. We were told it would be a few minutes till the bus got there, and we could go over to the ice cream shop across the road and buy some refreshments or lunch. A few minutes later, the guy plowing the field comes out of the farmhouse wearing a Greyhound uniform, opens the barn door, and drives out a Greyhound bus. He then walks across the road to the ice cream shop, tells us to take our time, kisses the woman behind the counter, and tells her he'll be home in a few hours.

[Zacha341]

State ID looks just like D License except it say ID only. I show DL as ID sometimes when using my credit cards or stores can card you for cigarette purchases or customs for flying etc.

The Michigan State ID anyone under 21 yrs is 'vertical' in format so at a glance you can see underage possession.

I'm going to ask a dumb question that will show I live out of state....

Are you REQUIRED by Michigan law to carry an ID? And if so, what?

I don't drive. After my stroke, I gave up my drivers license and although I can get a state [[Washington) issued ID card, there is no requirement under state or federal law that I must get one. Historically, drivers licenses are NOT "ID", so why pay the state for something I don't
need".

[douglasm]

That still doesn't answer the question. 1) is carrying a state issued "ID" required in Michigan, and 2) in Michigan does a Drivers License do anything legally except prove you are able to drive.

[Johnnny5]

That still doesn't answer the question. 1) is carrying a state issued "ID" required in Michigan, and 2) in Michigan does a Drivers License do anything legally except prove you are able to drive.

I've never heard anything about a legal requirement to carry or have a state issued ID in Michigan, but there are plenty of things that one can not easily do without one. Buying alcohol, checking into a hotel room, seeing a doctor, using a credit card in person, renting a tool at the hardware store. All things that I have used my Michigan DL for in just the last few months. I guess I could probably use one of the other government issued ID's I routinely carry in my wallet, but the DL is most commonly accepted and requested for most things.

[Richard]

I'm going to ask a dumb question that will show I live out of state....

Are you REQUIRED by Michigan law to carry an ID? And if so, what?

I don't drive. After my stroke, I gave up my drivers license and although I can get a state [[Washington) issued ID card, there is no requirement under state or federal law that I must get one. Historically, drivers licenses are NOT "ID", so why pay the state for something I don't
need".

By federal law you are not required to carry identification unless you are operating a motorized vehicle in any state.

You are required to properly identify yourself to law enforcement when asked,ie give the correct information and not lie.

If you are in a sketchy neighborhood be prepared for the look of fake shock on some LEO when they ask you for your papers and you recite that,they like to pretend that they are not aware of it.

In Fla the state ID is like only $22,Free If you are at or lower a certain income level and good for 6 years,most states make it cheap and easy.

But you still have to prove that you are an American citizen,just like when obtaining a drivers license.


The hardest part will be if you were born in another state is obtaining a original seal birth certificate from the hospital you were born at,it took me 4 monthes to acquire that,has to be done via mail and phone conversation,no internet aspect for security.

Its probably easier to cross the border and sneak back,then you can just get it all handed to you in some states for free.

They took away the white privilege cards and gave them to the illegals.

[248lurker]

No.

If someone wants to take and assume the risks of entering the US illegally, they shouldn't be afforded the rewards/benefits that come with legal status. The more benefits and privileges that get offered and extended to illegal immigrants, the less motivation there is for people to legally immigrate.

[pjbear05]

By federal law you are not required to carry identification unless you are operating a motorized vehicle in any state.

You are required to properly identify yourself to law enforcement when asked,ie give the correct information and not lie.

If you are in a sketchy neighborhood be prepared for the look of fake shock on some LEO when they ask you for your papers and you recite that,they like to pretend that they are not aware of it.

In Fla the state ID is like only $22,Free If you are at or lower a certain income level and good for 6 years,most states make it cheap and easy.

But you still have to prove that you are an American citizen,just like when obtaining a drivers license.


The hardest part will be if you were born in another state is obtaining a original seal birth certificate from the hospital you were born at,it took me 4 monthes to acquire that,has to be done via mail and phone conversation,no internet aspect for security.

Its probably easier to cross the border and sneak back,then you can just get it all handed to you in some states for free.

They took away the white privilege cards and gave them to the illegals.

Just curious, why would you want the sealed document from the hospital? Thats only a certificate of live birth, and not a legal document.

[Zacha341]

ID not required. But most useful [[I was asked for DL to board a Grayhound bus recently). Many financial matters require proof of identity and I am glad they do with the fraud going on.

A Drivers Liscense serves as Liscense and as official State ID [[so you get a two-fer having one! Weee!). And an Enhanced Liscense allows you to travel out of the country on a limited basis such as going to Canada.

I've always used my Passport for that. A Passport supersedes a State ID.

Most employers also require State ID/ Passport or Drivers Liscense as part of the hiring process.

That still doesn't answer the question. 1) is carrying a state issued "ID" required in Michigan, and 2) in Michigan does a Drivers License do anything legally except prove you are able to drive.

[Richard]

Just curious, why would you want the sealed document from the hospital? Thats only a certificate of live birth, and not a legal document.

To clarify it is an embossed certificate of live birth,ones with the embossed stamp.

From what I have heard it is easy to alter a copy of a birth certificate,take a birth certificate,white out the name,type yours in there then make a copy of it with your name on it.

You now have changed your identity,take that birth certificate to another state and get a drivers license in your new name,providing that you have never been fingerprinted in the past you can then send that information to the passport office,you are now a new person that can travel the world like Jason Borne.

It was that easy,until 9-11 now I guess one would have to either steal a seal from a hospitable,or hack some federal or state data base.


I am in Florida,mine was stolen,it was in a briefcase that I had in a car that I was selling,my dumbass let somebody test drive the car around the block,briefcase was still in the car,just the documents were gone.

So,I was born at the Roseville hospital in Minnesota but had to pay the fees to the county that the hospital was located in,the hospital had to provide to the county an embossed certificate of birth,from 1960.

I had to snail mail them a request with a money order while providing my phone number and place of residence,which they actually verified,and called to ask a million questions,then they sent it back to me via regular snail mail which somebody could have stolen out of the mail box anyways.

That embossed certificate is the only excepted form of original.

To renew my license in Fla I had to provide an original embossed birth certificate #1 then there are other forms,a copy of my deed,utilility bill,a previous fla DL and a copy of my social security card.

What they did in the beginning is offer a one time renewal online without providing the documentation if you had a previous state DL,we get 6 year license,the next renewal you had to provide the documentation.

I have to wonder though when you see hospitals in cities that have closed how do people get the original,only the hospital can provide an original,all the other gov agency’s only have a copy of.

Those records must be in the care of somebody maybe?

[Zacha341]

Interestingly related end-of-life documents [[death cert) is needed often in real estate to verify ownership/ transfer of ownership of a decease party property or moneys to the living.

Best to have one handy with embossed seal. You get about three copies free [[from funeral home) when a family member dies as it will be needed to handle the estate. Small or large.

Birth certs conversely are needed verify who you are 'living and breathing' to get the other stuffs!

To clarify it is an embossed certificate of live birth, ones with the embossed stamp.

[Zacha341]

It seems politics supersedes that which should be obvious. Don't cha love it??

No.

If someone wants to take and assume the risks of entering the US illegally, they shouldn't be afforded the rewards/benefits that come with legal status....

[Richard]

Interestingly related end-of-life documents [[death cert) is needed often in real estate to verify ownership/ transfer of ownership of a decease party property or moneys to the living.

Best to have one handy with embossed seal. You get about three copies free [[from funeral home) when a family member dies as it will be needed to handle the estate. Small or large.

Birth certs conversely are needed verify who you are 'living and breathing' to get the other stuffs!

Thats why stolen identity these days and illegals goes hand in hand,it is worth it to them to pay $5000 plus for your information in order to circumvent the joke of a reporting system.

A company gets hacked and a million identities are stolen,who wants to face federal bank fraud charges verses identity theft charges if caught,for the same amount of money.

The Mexican girl profiled on CNN today was working as a high up manager for one of the largest banking houses in the country,while being illegal and under a fake stolen identity,she was making $200k a year.

She is legal now through marriage but was upset because she could not apply for citizenship for her parents that brought her here illegally in the first place.

Its like wanting to be legally rewarded for breaking the law,I try that crap and they would be laughing at me for weeks.

Years ago in Florida illegals could legally get a drivers license but it had a colored [[can I use that word) band on it and it could not be used to vote with.

The practice was stopped when the new federal ID mandates became effective,because you have to prove legal status in order to qualify.

Which begs to question,Illinois and other states allow illegals to obtain drivers licenses,how are they circumventing the federal ID standards.

It kinda makes them pointless,force them for citizens but exempt them for illegals.So what is the point of requiring it?


But we have millions of illegals and it was a revenue generator,I would wonder if the cost of implementation in Michigan would be worth it,I think you guys are in the 180,000 range?

One thing I can say license or not,a major accident with major injuries and with no ties they disappear quick.

[archfan]

...

For example, how many laws would an undocumented immigrant have to break or ignore to present to the Secretary of the State to acquire a drivers license [[last I checked you need very specific documents)?

Well, none, if they change the law. Presumably, they would show who they are, and prove they know how to obey Michigan traffic laws.

What will the adaptations be to allow the illegals licensing process [[documentation) not available for US citizens?

And how does this advance Detroiters? How would auto insurance be impacted? How would liability be addressed in the case of accidents.

If you issue a drivers license, then with that license you can buy insurance, and you might have a smaller percentage of unlicensed drivers on the road. They would then be subjected to the same liabilities as everyone else in the case of an accident.

[archfan]

NO! And there doesn’t need to be discussions why! This is completely idiotic!

You can stomp your foot and refuse to discuss it. Or you can look at the practicalities of the issue. There are roughly 130,000 illegal immigrants in Michigan. They need to work and drive to live. If there is no legal path to obtain a license, people will do illegal things to get one, like buying a stolen identity, maybe yours. Issuing a license short circuits that.

[archfan]

I'm going to ask a dumb question that will show I live out of state....

Are you REQUIRED by Michigan law to carry an ID? And if so, what?
...

Michigan does not have a Stop and Identify Statute. That means that police can ask for your ID, but you aren't required to give it to them. If they are just asking questions, it isn't supposed to be a problem. If they are detaining you because there may be a crime happening, then they may haul you in.

[Honky Tonk]

Just curious, why would you want the sealed document from the hospital? Thats only a certificate of live birth, and not a legal document.

In my case, when I went to apply for my drivers license, in some file, my name was misspelled, [[I think they had it Honki Tonk) and I had to prove the legitimate spelling of my name, and that I was who I said I was. Since I was born in another state, and Bill Gates hadn't invented a computer yet, the process took a while. Hard to believe Gretchen now wants to hand them out like jelly beans.

[Danny]

no no no!!! They have to trained to follow U.S. traffic laws and learn out languages before they can receive a U.S. driver's license.

[Zacha341]

So the State of Michigan will set up a special diversion program allowing undocumented [[illegal) persons to opt out of the need to present standard documents US Citizens must provide? Right?

Just checking. Good times at the SoS office ahead considering their very high efficiency now! Here's hoping priority-wise a similar leniency program is provided/ mandated for Detroiter's seeking a State DL or ID. Detroiter's who also may fall short of documents! Detroit YES?

They need to work and drive to live. If there is no legal path to obtain a license, people will do illegal things to get one, like buying a stolen identity, maybe yours. Issuing a license short circuits that.

[CassTechGrad]

Michigan Just Made It A Lot Easier To Vote
11/06/2018 11:27 pm ET

"Michigan voters on Tuesday approved a constitutional amendment intended to make it drastically easier to cast a ballot in the state. Voters in the state will now be automatically registered to vote when they interact with the state’s motor vehicle agency unless they opt out."

[Honky Tonk]

There are roughly 130,000 illegal immigrants in Michigan. They need to work and drive to live. If there is no legal path to obtain a license, people will do illegal things to get one, like buying a stolen identity, maybe yours. Issuing a license short circuits that.

What total B/S, they need to become legal US citizens before receiving any US money and privileges.