Transit after Amazon Flop ?

[bust]

I live in a state where people from every state moves to and the reason why comes up in conversation,I have a tendency to put more stock in what the person expirences verses what is published.

The downside is people have a tendency to make changes to replicate where they moved from which in turn recreates the exact same situation that they left.

I don't doubt the data you've gleaned from the transplants you encounter in Florida, but Bham is correct:

Massachusetts Leading Northeast in Population Growth
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-sta...ulation-growth

Remember the people who've moved down to Florida are a self-selected bunch. My dad's among them. If you talk to him you'll quickly learn at this stage in his life he's all about reducing his taxes. But that's because he's retired and basically on a fixed income, living off his pension and dividends on his investments. Talk to more young people, or for that matter people of any age who've elected to stay where the transplants have arrived from and you'll hear earning potential is what matters most.

Whom would you rather attract, Retirees or young workers? Between those two groups I can tell you which one is better for the long term prospects of your state.

[Bham1982]

Lots of people in the Northeast have homes in FL, or have moved part or full-time to FL, esp. on the Atlantic side. That doesn't mean those states re "failing"; it means that A. People generally like warmer weather, especially in their later years and B. The Northeast has many successful folks who can afford multiple homes.

Similarly, it seems half of Naples, FL consists of retired suburbanites from the wealthy suburbs of the Midwest. Doesn't mean Bloomfield Hills and the like are "failing". It's the same phenomenon as with the Northeasterners but on the Gulf Coast. Talk to any wealthy white conservative Midwestern suburbanite and they go gaga for Naples.

[Richard]

When you look at Palm Beach,Naples and Sarasota I agree a majority are wealthy comparatively,either you have money or not,but when it comes to transit they bring the same mindset with them,they will not use it so it becomes irrelevant to them.

But maybe that is also why the RNC holds convention in a blue city of lil old Tampa,lots of political strength in a small area.

Most of the transplants I deal with are per say the adverage person,you would be surprised how many Detroit xpats still think Kilpatrick is mayor.

The wealth aside it is the common person and why they choose to relocate is what I am really interested in that and how does a milinial afford a $350,000 starter home in a state where the adverage person is lucky to make $15 per hour.

They approve a $350 million dollar 1 mile extension on the freeway but reject a $30 million extension of the street car.But even at that tracks are still being laid across the state.

Figure my children who are in their 30s are a small part of natural born Floridians and our transit fight is really only 10 years old.

[O3H]

Who needs inner city farming
- when you have Pearls on Swine in Oakland ?

[Kevgoblu]

The RTA proposal was asking those of us in the exburbs of Oakland and Macomb Counties that have no possibility of making use of the proposed transit routes to pay 5x, 10x or even 20x more than those that live just steps from those proposed routes. That's not a fair way of funding regional mass transit, and it's not "Selfish" to point that out.

hmmmm.....let me see if I understand your point correctly.

That's like saying road funding is not fair for the inner city residents or those living downriver. To have their state tax dollars go to pay for the $1B I75 project, widening the freeway in Oakland county, that they aren't going to use. Odd. I haven't heard many voice a concern about that subject. I'd be interested to hear your opinion. Maybe residents of the exurbs should exclusively pay for that.

And while I'm on a roll, city residents' electric and gas bills shouldn't be subsidizing the expansion of lines in every far corner of the exurbs. As they won't be utilizing any of the benefits it provides. Nor should they subsidize the expansion of water mains. But the exurbs should subsidize city residents to help pay for water main breaks, right? Because the necessary higher pressure levels required contribute to system failure.

Government is there to provide for the collective good. Not just what will benefit you personally.

[Johnnny5]

hmmmm.....let me see if I understand your point correctly.

That's like saying road funding is not fair for the inner city residents or those living downriver. To have their state tax dollars go to pay for the $1B I75 project, widening the freeway in Oakland county, that they aren't going to use. Odd. I haven't heard many voice a concern about that subject. I'd be interested to hear your opinion. Maybe residents of the exurbs should exclusively pay for that.

The overwhelming majority of road construction and maintenance in Michigan is funded via fuel taxes and vehicle registration fees. This means those "Inner city and downriver residents" you mention are paying fuel taxes relatively equivalent to how much they use the roads [[At least up until electric vehicles disrupt that funding model). If someone doesn't own a vehicle, and never drives they pay very little towards road construction and maintenance.

Absent the use of toll roads, it's currently impossible to ensure that individuals pay for the particular roads they most often use. At least with fuel taxes and vehicle fees funding roads there is a link between the number of miles driven and the taxes one pays. That's really the total opposite of the RTA proposal where property values alone were to be used to determine mass transit taxes. In that scenario those that were the least likely to use the service [[Those in far out suburbs) were to pay the most for it.

[Richard]

And therein lies the argument,why should I support mass transit because it bennifits you personally.

Who is you,you is a collection of fellow citizens that also share the city,if you do not have a car move elsewhere.

My mother in law raised her family in Philadelphia Of 6 kids,she spent over 40 years there and never owned a car in her life and at age 65 never even had a drivers license.

The more mass transit the less wear and tear on the roads which translates into less revenue which is needed to maintain them,is that not in the overall collective good?

We are enjoying low gas prices now but it does not take much for them to go up,faced with no other option how many are going to ride bicycles to work every day,even if you are in the burbs and your one car breaks down,outside of uber what is the plan B ?

[Johnnny5]

I'll add that I'm not opposed to expanding mass transit or a system where it's regionally funded. My issues with the RTA proposal are strictly related to how it was to be funded, and the exclusion of certain communities from the transit service yet still requiring them to pay for it.

[dtowncitylover]

In that scenario those that were the least likely to use the service [[Those in far out suburbs) were to pay the most for it.

Per capita you might be spending more, but you would be giving far less than where more of the people live.

If Major City has 50,000 houses and had to pay $75 on average a year for the RTA. Suburb City has 10,000 houses paying $95 on average for the RTA. And Exurb Township has 5,000 houses each paying on average $100 for the RTA. Which municipality would actually be giving more to the RTA?

And 85% of the $500,000 Exurb City paid into the RTA had to remain within the county of exurb city.

Never mind this is a PROPERTY tax, not a homeowners tax. It will affect renters too through any increased rent.

I'm not an MPA/urban admin professional, so I will stand corrected.

[dtowncitylover]

...exclusion of certain communities from the transit service yet requiring them to still pay for it.

And I think that's not what was implied at all by the RTA. The RTA's map was both a goal and groundwork. No one said Oakland Township or Armada couldn't have transit. It was simply, let's try to build this system and go from there.

But in order to be truly REGIONAL, opt-out CANNOT occur.

[Richard]

I'll add that I'm not opposed to expanding mass transit or a system where it's regionally funded. My issues with the RTA proposal are strictly related to how it was to be funded, and the exclusion of certain communities from the transit service yet still requiring them to pay for it.

If it is an exclusion on the RTA part then that would be poor planing on RTAs behalf.

But one also cannot have a jump over section or town,the trick is to find that happy place where everybody has a say and it is really up to RTA supporters to have a clear and transparent proposal as to the benefits and I think it would be hard pressed to find at least a small base of supporters to work with in every city and town,you really cannot force it on everybody and yes it needs to be regional based and excepted,otherwise your head hurts from banging it against the wall.

It happens in every city and then common ground is found and it gets implemented.

[Richard]

Per capita you might be spending more, but you would be giving far less than where more of the people live.

If Major City has 50,000 houses and had to pay $75 on average a year for the RTA. Suburb City has 10,000 houses paying $95 on average for the RTA. And Exurb Township has 5,000 houses each paying on average $100 for the RTA. Which municipality would actually be giving more to the RTA?

And 85% of the $500,000 Exurb City paid into the RTA had to remain within the county of exurb city.

Never mind this is a PROPERTY tax, not a homeowners tax. It will affect renters too through any increased rent.

I'm not an MPA/urban admin professional, so I will stand corrected.

I posted a link that shows how they get funded,all of the options need to be looked at first that do not involve the taxpayer then when that sum is totaled then you know the number that needs to be adressed it takes all different sources of revenue to fund them and for the most part it will always be subsidized by the taxpayer.

In fairness they need to know that exact number,I can get the formula from the Orlando trains if you want which passes through many municipalities.

[dtowncitylover]

And the fact that one of Oakland County's RTA board members is from Oakland Township should show exurban people they actually do have a seat at the table.

[Richard]

^ that does not mean anything,they could be an inside person designed to undercut the objective.How many Oakland residents have shown their support behind the members?

[dtowncitylover]

^ that does not mean anything,they could be an inside person designed to undercut the objective.How many Oakland residents have shown their support behind the members?

Considering board members are appointed by county execs [[or the commission in Washtenaw's case) and how the OC reps have acted towards their own agency over the past couple of years, you'd know that he's very much an LBP appointee.

[ABetterDetroit]

NEZ has already proven to be highly effective in Detroit for those wealthy enough that can take advantage... but for the regular people?

Democrat's say "Absolutely No!"

Those property tax cuts created some damn cool places downtown and they want to be able to get there without the hassle of a car.

They could car less if the other 130 square miles under a 4% plus annual property tax are a Slum Lords and Blighted Polluters Paradise because cutting property taxes is "to hard" while Republicans can not stop giving themselves tax cuts at every possible turn.

Meanwhile... Out in Oakland and Macomb counties after bleeding off jobs and residents from the city for decades with a property tax rate 1/3 of Detroit's they are realizing that places like South Carolina and others are sucking off their wealth and jobs quickly with a property tax rate 1/3 of their own so they are digging in their heels.

Real life can be stranger than fiction.

https://smartasset.com/taxes/south-c...tax-calculator

[professorscott]

I'll add that I'm not opposed to expanding mass transit or a system where it's regionally funded. My issues with the RTA proposal are strictly related to how it was to be funded, and the exclusion of certain communities from the transit service yet still requiring them to pay for it.

The people whose job it was to try to get the funding passed by the voters did a bad job of explaining this, if they even tried. It would have worked, in all three counties, like it works in Macomb County today: every community has access to some kind of transit; the more dense communities have access to fixed route transit; and the amount paid in by each community is in rough proportion to what is spent. There is no community in Macomb County that has absolutely no access to transit, just the type of transit varies. Fixed-route buses in Ray Township would be a waste of money.

[Johnnny5]

The people whose job it was to try to get the funding passed by the voters did a bad job of explaining this, if they even tried. It would have worked, in all three counties, like it works in Macomb County today: every community has access to some kind of transit; the more dense communities have access to fixed route transit; and the amount paid in by each community is in rough proportion to what is spent. There is no community in Macomb County that has absolutely no access to transit, just the type of transit varies. Fixed-route buses in Ray Township would be a waste of money.

The RTA proposal map I saw left the entire Northwest corner of Oakland County nearly devoid of any planned mass transit routes. I'm not even at the far Northern edge, but the closest route would have been nearly 10 miles away from my front door, and the time frame for that route appeared to be years after the initial funding kicked in.

Even after going back and rereading the proposals the only mention I see of service in my community was the last minute addition of [[possibly) increasing funding for para transit van services. I can find nothing stating "the amount paid in by each community is in rough proportion to what is spent", but by all means if it's out there please point me to it.

[MicrosoftFan]

I honestly don’t care how the transit system is funded, I just want to see the day where buses run on time and every 15 minutes

[mtburb]

I honestly don’t care how the transit system is funded, I just want to see the day where buses run on time and every 15 minutes

And where they run down virtually all the main local roads, though here in Wyandotte we're already almost at that.

[ABetterDetroit]

I honestly don’t care how the transit system is funded, I just want to see the day where buses run on time and every 15 minutes

Some will never want to pay a tax for anything no matter who it benefits.

Others will want their own needs provided from the Government no matter who it hurts.

It it would seem you fall into the latter.

Hundreds of thousands of people have LOST their homes for unpaid property taxes in Detroit and even more JOBS have moved to the suburbs over the last several decades.

Hey, at least you are up front. You “Honestly don’t care.”

[O3H]

Only when people stop thinking selfishly does society evolve.