New Wave of Graffiti Artists Say . . ., I do what I wanna

[majohnson]

http://detnews.com/article/20110507/...-sends-message

These guys claim they are making Detroit a better place.

I would say "why not buy a building and spray paint it?".
But realistically these are the type of people who will never own any real estate. And by the time they do will no longer be interested in such a past-time.

Why not open a small space where people can watch artists do their spray work.
People are entertained and might even buy a 8 X 12ft. piece for their home.

Citizens are so disconnected from society and the fruits of their labor that some no longer understand that we need everyone's productive efforts to make the economy run.
These guys are doing the opposite of rehabbing buildings.
They are wasting or tarnishing their youth by committing crimes, spending time that could have been used on working, education, volunteering, mentoring, or having clean fun.

I would easily pay a few dollars to watch a building of spray artists create pieces.
And yes there is a low VOC spray paint for those wondering how realistic my idea is.

[1KielsonDrive]

I have some privately owned, publicly viewable spaces for some graffitti artists to practice their trade and hone their skills.

[Richard]

http://apps.detnews.com/apps/forums/...=Graffiti_2011

So far over 86% agree that it is vandalism,if you watch his video you hear the typical me,me,my,my.

[Mikeg]

Here's more about that show in LA which was mentioned in the Detroit News article:

Radical Graffiti Chic
By Heather MacDonald,
City Journal, Spring 2011

Sponsored by L.A.’s aristocracy, the Museum of Contemporary Art’s new show celebrates vandalism.

Drive behind the Geffen Contemporary, an art museum in downtown Los Angeles, and you will notice that it has painted over the graffiti scrawled on its back wall. Ordinarily, that wouldn’t be surprising; the Geffen’s neighbors also maintain constant vigilance against graffiti vandalism. But beginning in April, the Geffen—a satellite of L.A.’s Museum of Contemporary Art—will host what MOCA proudly bills as America’s first major museum survey of “street art,” a euphemism for graffiti. Graffiti, it turns out, is something that MOCA celebrates only on other people’s property, not on its own. [read the entire article here]

[majohnson]

Amazing article,
"Even this two-facedness pales beside the hypocrisy of the graffiti vandals themselves, who wage war on property rights until presented with the opportunity to sell their work or license it to a corporation. At that point, they grab all the profits they can stuff into their bank accounts. Lost in this antibourgeois posturing is the likely result of the museum’s graffiti glorification: a renewed commitment to graffiti by Los Angeles’s ghetto youth, who will learn that the city’s power class views graffiti not as a crime but as art worthy of curation. The victims will be the law-abiding residents of the city’s most graffiti-afflicted neighborhoods and, for those who care, the vandals themselves."

The vandal Ride in the DetNews video relates finds cause for his vandalism, claiming it is a protest against failing schools. WTF!
How can we recruit business and talent to Detroit to pay for the school system etc. when Ride specifically makes a point of tagging I-94, exactly the visual space most newcomers will experience first when visiting Detroit?

[Gistok]

Agreed majohnson... very well written article...and the hypocraciy of the Geffen is appalling....

[laphoque]

How can we recruit business and talent to Detroit to pay for the school system etc. when Ride specifically makes a point of tagging I-94, exactly the visual space most newcomers will experience first when visiting Detroit?

To be fair, the ditches that make up our freeway system are supremely unappealing on their own. Murals and/or graffiti would spruce them up. The freeways are Detroit's worst face.

Graffiti is not a new form anyway. It is a primitive, innate art form. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_painting#Age

It's also a great way of measuring whether a building is just vacant or has been abandoned.

[manualshift]

All of these news articles on this guy "Ride" paint a picture of a complete idiot.

[1KielsonDrive]

To be fair, the ditches that make up our freeway system are supremely unappealing on their own. Murals and/or graffiti would spruce them up. The freeways are Detroit's worst face.

Graffiti is not a new form anyway. It is a primitive, innate art form. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_painting#Age

It's also a great way of measuring whether a building is just vacant or has been abandoned.

I agree!!!!!

[Mikeg]

In their May 2011 issue, The New Criterion takes note of the graffiti “street art” exhibition at the Los Angeles Museum of Contemporary Art and Heather MacDonald's article in which she conducts a "long and patient demolition of this form of urban squalor masquerading as art."

Defacement art

On the sad spectacle of graffiti in the musuem.

Of all spurious forms of contemporary art, perhaps the most ostentatiously disagreeable is so-called “graffiti art.” What it represents is the elevation of a public nuisance into a protected and adulated form of creative endeavor. Because it has its origin in an activity that involves a contempt for private property, its rebirth as art—a specially venerated species of property—involves all manner of contradictions, not to say hypocritical evasions, on the part of those who practice and those who hawk and display the stuff. [read the entire commentary]

[majohnson]

The freeway system is not supremely unappealing on its own.
Consider that our society shows wide enough support for it that we spend considerable money on them. We have done it for years and across the United States and developed world.
Illegal spray painting on the other hand has been widely deemed unappealing,as shown through political support to repeatedly paint over it, provide funds required, and political support to make the painting illegal.

Just as society has spoken on driving drunk by tax-supported police fundingto counter it and has shown wide political support by making it illegal.
Society has spoken by declaring errant spray painting illegal, and by additionally apportioning money that could be used on school programs etc. tocombat your activities.

Yet you still imagine yourself improving society.
I ask. What form of societal notice would you accept that your activities are not overwhelmingly rejected?
Seriously, maybe you view the police as a bunch of jack-asses wasting public money chasing you when they could be arresting murderers. I don't know. But what signal do you want?
Would you be convinced by a march down Woodward, a declaration passed by voters simply declaring that we hate graffiti, what if Made In Detroit anti-graffitishirts became popular?
What institution do you respect enough to listen to?

It does not matter how old the activity is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder
Does murder's long history make it okay?
Also, wouldn't the cave art have been in the person's home, aka his own property?

You try to distinguish vacant from abandoned in a way relevant to yourclaim.
We live in 2011 America, a time and place of 'private property'.
The idea that a building/structure transitions from occupied to vacant toabandoned is false.

Let's imagine that you are a productive member of society and eventually have the means to pay off the mortgage of the home you live in. [[OwnerOccupied)
Then you stop paying your taxes. What happens? Well sir, the governmenttakes ownership interest in the house and eventually forecloses on your private ownership, a tax foreclosure, and he then removes you from the premises; real-world evidence that you don't control the property.
Let's imagine this house is in Royal Oak, how does it look a year later? Would you spray paint on it? Not likely, you term it 'vacant' because it stilllooks decent. [[And yes homes go empty a year in Royal Oak.)
Let's imagine the house is in Detroit, how does it look after a year? Wouldyou paint it?
Likely, you term it abandoned because the front door has been kicked in, heating and plumbing stolen and windows broken.
I wouldn't think you would be the first to cause damage to a building that is simply empty, unlike the scrapper who kicked in the door to facilitate stealing, but you are willing to add to the property destruction once it has deteriorated past a certain threshold.

Is the Central Train Station abandoned? Why because you know who owns it?
What you term abandoned properties across the United States are owned by governmental entities or corporations.
There is no 'abandoned' property allowing modification by non-owners in a country recognizing private property.

Initially only land owners had voting rights or social significance. This country was founded on private property. Respect them, one day you will be an old man and some 21 year old will park his hydrogen powered car on your lawn.When you tell him he has no right, he will look at you like a corporate suit even though you are just a regular guy from the D trying to keep the world turning.

Peace and good luck.

[1KielsonDrive]

In their May 2011 issue, The New Criterion takes note of the graffiti “street art” exhibition at the Los Angeles Museum of Contemporary Art and Heather MacDonald's article in which she conducts a "long and patient demolition of this form of urban squalor masquerading as art."

Defacement art

On the sad spectacle of graffiti in the musuem.

Of all spurious forms of contemporary art, perhaps the most ostentatiously disagreeable is so-called “graffiti art.” What it represents is the elevation of a public nuisance into a protected and adulated form of creative endeavor. Because it has its origin in an activity that involves a contempt for private property, its rebirth as art—a specially venerated species of property—involves all manner of contradictions, not to say hypocritical evasions, on the part of those who practice and those who hawk and display the stuff. [read the entire commentary]

Well, there is a middle ground here somewhere. Graffitti can be very artisitic, interesting and engaging. But it can also be graffitti - a nuisance and eyesore. But, we don't have enough cops and law enforcement capacity to even answer emergency calls much less deal with graffitti. Who's fault is that? I think it lies on the tax cutters. Defund our civilization.

[Mikeg]

Well, there is a middle ground here somewhere. Graffitti can be very artisitic, interesting and engaging. But it can also be graffitti - a nuisance and eyesore. But, we don't have enough cops and law enforcement capacity to even answer emergency calls much less deal with graffitti. Who's fault is that? I think it lies on the tax cutters. Defund our civilization.

We've never had enough police resources to enforce all of the norms of society. Most of the juvenile stuff was handled by friends, neighbors and even strangers [[and defacing others property is a juvenile act of vandalism, regardless of the age of the perp) . If you were growing up 70, 60 or even 50 years ago, you knew that if you were seen messing up, your neighbors would have publicly scolded you and sent you home and there would be hell to pay when you got there because your parents would have already heard about it.

Now we have the elites in the artistic community embracing and promoting the practitioners of this so-called "art form" - as long as the vandals stay away from their own precious property.

The civilized countries with the highest standards of living and personal economic freedom are those that have the most-developed traditions for recording and respecting property ownership rights through the rule of law. To argue that "there is a middle ground here somewhere" where property rights should be overlooked is to argue that the US deserves to eventually drift down into the "middle ground" of less-civilized countries.

[Django]

Whichever graffiti vandal did this in the Cut is good with me. I could see work like this being a very kickass welcome do Detroit on 94. I think it would be a great experiment giving space to spray to local artists, better than looking at blank concrete.
You all want Detroit to be revitalized so bad but so unwilling to take some chances, let the young ones have their shot.

[Jimaz]

That would make an interesting CAPTCHA.

[Magnatomicflux]

I don't know if any of you have watched "The Rick Mercer report" on CBC. He's a Canadian political comedian. Anyways....he was a segment call "rant". He always seems to find the coolest allies in Toronto to film whatever he's bitching about in.

I found this one on youtube...it's got some god stuff on the walls.

http://youtu.be/sZsXBo1L9Bk

[Detroitnut]

I wonder how many current and potential donors the DIA has just alienated with their public statement about all graffiti being art? The same group of people that are business owners who because of MOCADs graffitied building would never donate. The DIA is an icon and a role model that has a social responsibility to its community. I think these business owners and city of LA should send the Geffen the bill to cleanup the graffiti they caused, and I hope this Detroit artocle doesnt have a similar effect. Graffiti is at the heart of public safety and a serious threat to economic recovery. Noone wants to live and work in a place overrun with vandals and thugs. Gee I hope the DIA doesnt get tagged- or maybe then Hart will have the first clue about what it feels like to be victimized.

[1KielsonDrive]

We've never had enough police resources to enforce all of the norms of society. Most of the juvenile stuff was handled by friends, neighbors and even strangers [[and defacing others property is a juvenile act of vandalism, regardless of the age of the perp) . If you were growing up 70, 60 or even 50 years ago, you knew that if you were seen messing up, your neighbors would have publicly scolded you and sent you home and there would be hell to pay when you got there because your parents would have already heard about it.

Now we have the elites in the artistic community embracing and promoting the practitioners of this so-called "art form" - as long as the vandals stay away from their own precious property.

The civilized countries with the highest standards of living and personal economic freedom are those that have the most-developed traditions for recording and respecting property ownership rights through the rule of law. To argue that "there is a middle ground here somewhere" where property rights should be overlooked is to argue that the US deserves to eventually drift down into the "middle ground" of less-civilized countries.

And those countries you speak of, would be???? [[name a couple). I stand by my middle ground statement. You sound just like a right-wing nut that never sees any middle ground: it's good or it's bad, you're guilty or innocent, it's war or not, you're with us or against us, if you do something bad you're going to hell.......etc, etc, etc.

[1KielsonDrive]

Whichever graffiti vandal did this in the Cut is good with me. I could see work like this being a very kickass welcome do Detroit on 94. I think it would be a great experiment giving space to spray to local artists, better than looking at blank concrete.
You all want Detroit to be revitalized so bad but so unwilling to take some chances, let the young ones have their shot.

I'm with you Django. This is art.

[1KielsonDrive]

I wonder how many current and potential donors the DIA has just alienated with their public statement about all graffiti being art? The same group of people that are business owners who because of MOCADs graffitied building would never donate. The DIA is an icon and a role model that has a social responsibility to its community. I think these business owners and city of LA should send the Geffen the bill to cleanup the graffiti they caused, and I hope this Detroit artocle doesnt have a similar effect. Graffiti is at the heart of public safety and a serious threat to economic recovery. Noone wants to live and work in a place overrun with vandals and thugs. Gee I hope the DIA doesnt get tagged- or maybe then Hart will have the first clue about what it feels like to be victimized.

Wow! Fucking, eh. Thanks for letting me in on that. I might've never guessed it. All this time I was under the illusion it was jobs, foreclosures, bankruptcies, poverty, wars and the destruction of the middle class.

[Jimaz]

Attachment 9681
Orelha Negra - M.I.R.I.A.M. X Vhils

Play safely! Or at least genuinely.

alexandrefarto.com

[Django]

Jimaz, that shits awesome.
Is it really art created by explosion?

[1953]

I wish "Ride" and his ilk would get jobs and stop defacing the city. I-94 wasn't looking so bad after its last fix-up; recently, though, Ride, et. al. have been marking it up something terrible.

1953

[Detroitnut]

Whichever graffiti vandal did this in the Cut is good with me. I could see work like this being a very kickass welcome do Detroit on 94. I think it would be a great experiment giving space to spray to local artists, better than looking at blank concrete.
You all want Detroit to be revitalized so bad but so unwilling to take some chances, let the young ones have their shot.

Yes their shot at jail time. If it is so good it put be put on a trashed board and nail it up so at least then hes a recyler and just a litterer instead of a vandal. If its good and its on a board maybe he can sell it !!!

[Mikeg]

And those countries you speak of, would be???? [[name a couple). I stand by my middle ground statement. You sound just like a right-wing nut that never sees any middle ground: it's good or it's bad, you're guilty or innocent, it's war or not, you're with us or against us, if you do something bad you're going to hell.......etc, etc, etc.

Let's keep it civil, please? I didn't try to negatively characterize you and I wish you would treat me with the same courtesy. Of course, we all know that there is a glaring double standard on this forum when it comes to name-calling.

Now for that "middle ground" approach you'd like to see employed when it comes to permitting graffiti, just exactly where do you think it should be permitted [[pick as many as you need to turn that gray "middle ground" description into something more black & white and actionable)?
a) clearly abandoned private property
b) vacant private property
c) any private property [[except your own, of course)
d) publicly owned bridges, walkways. roads, etc
e) publicly owned parks
f) publicly owned vacant or abandoned buildings
g) publicly owned and occupied buildings
h) any public property
i) all of the above but only if the graffiti "artist" has their own web site and/or has had their "work" shown in an art gallery or has been similarly celebrated