I-94 Rapid Transit Line- Detroit to Airport

[rbdetsport]

This past weekend, and most likely everyday this summer, I rode the blue "L" line in Chicago that extends mostly down I-90/I-94. Also, someone mentioned this on the "False Hope" thread. Riding on that line got me thinking about the possibility of doing this on the middle of I-94. In the current regional plan, Warren Avenue is planned to become a BRT line. Why not move that proposed line to I-94 and touch more communities and the airport? The line could run from the Airport all the way to the Roseville area with an extension to Mt.Clemens if necessary. The line would also touch/connect with many of the other proposed lines in the RTCC plan. Here are my proposed stations:

- McNamara Terminal
- North Terminal
- Taylor [[at Telegraph/connection to Telegraph BRT)
- Allen Park [[at Southfield Freeway)
- Melvindale
- Dearborn [[at Michigan/connection to Michigan LRT/BRT)
- Livernois
- Woodbridge
- Wayne State [[connection to Woodward LRT)
- Poletown/Eastern Market
- Van Dyke [[connection to Van Dyke LRT/BRT/ART)
- Gratiot/City Airport [[connection to Gratiot LRT/BRT)
- Chandler Park
- East English Village
- Grosse Pointes/Eastland [[connection to 8 Mile BRT)
- East Detroit
- Roseville [[at Martin Rd)

Future Expansion:
- Macomb Mall [[connection to Gratiot LRT/BRT)
- Metro Beach [[connection to Big Beaver/Metro Parkway BRT/ART)
- Mt.Clemens

What do you guys think? I personally think they should take out the proposed Warren Line and add this one in its place. It would be much more useful for the entire area and connect the Airport to the region in a different way from the AA-Detroit Commuter Rail and Michigan Avenue LRT/BRT. I think this can work.

[Bham1982]

Assuming it's logistically possible [[medians and right-of-ways), my question would be why?

Is there significant demand for airport-to-downtown public transportation, and would taxpayers be willing to fund this to the tune of billions? Are folks in Macomb County yearning for public transit to the airport?

If such demand really exists, commuter rail or a busway would be many times cheaper, though admittedly not nearly as snazzy.

[EL Jimbo]

Assuming it's logistically possible [[medians and right-of-ways), my question would be why?

Is there significant demand for airport-to-downtown public transportation, and would taxpayers be willing to fund this to the tune of billions?

If such demand really exists, commuter rail or a busway would be many times cheaper, though admittedly not nearly as snazzy.

This is called the Ann Arbor-Detroit Commuter Rail. I believe it is currently being held up because they are waiting for M-1 to be completed. The problem with this line is that it ends at that New Center Amtrak station. Without reliable transit to downtown, the commuter line from Ann Arbor and DTW is a non-starter. With M-1, airline passengers can take the commuter rail to New Center, transfer to M-1 and get downtown.

Of course, all this is predicated on getting M-1 done.

As far as demand, one of the key knocks that holds Cobo Hall back from attracting more convention business is the fact that out of town conventioners who fly in are forced to either take an expensive cab ride back and forth downtown or have to pay to drive and park a rented car. Creating an airport-downtown line would simply create demand by its existence because Cobo would be able to attract more convention business.

[rbdetsport]

I think the demand does exist for a crosstown line. If or when a mass transit system is actually in place in our region, eastsiders and others in Macomb County would not have a direct route to DTW. They would have to make multiple transfers. I-94 goes through some of the densest areas of the city and suburbs. While it would cost a lot, with a regional sales tax, it could be done. We need a new sales tax for transit right now anyways. Why not include a very viable option and another reason for Macomb County to support a regional tax. I think there would be a high enough ridership to show the need for better transit than just a bus.

Also, in regards to the AA-Detroit Commuter Rail, that would be for people traveling from the distant suburbs to the CBDs of AA and Detroit. While it would be an option for metro detroiters to get to the airport, an I-94 line would be another option and cover different needs of the region. Look at many city mass transit systems, the commuter rail lines are usually parallel with another transit mode. Commuter Rail serves a different purpose of LRT/BRT.

Aside from need and demand, and all in good fun, I also think this would just look and be REALLY cool.

[Junkin4Life]

this past weekend, and most likely everyday this summer, i rode the blue "l" line in chicago that extends mostly down i-90/i-94. Also, someone mentioned this on the "false hope" thread. Riding on that line got me thinking about the possibility of doing this on the middle of i-94. In the current regional plan, warren avenue is planned to become a brt line. Why not move that proposed line to i-94 and touch more communities and the airport? The line could run from the airport all the way to the roseville area with an extension to mt.clemens if necessary. The line would also touch/connect with many of the other proposed lines in the rtcc plan. Here are my proposed stations:

- mcnamara terminal
- north terminal
- taylor [[at telegraph/connection to telegraph brt)
- allen park [[at southfield freeway)
- melvindale
- dearborn [[at michigan/connection to michigan lrt/brt)
- livernois
- woodbridge
- wayne state [[connection to woodward lrt)
- poletown/eastern market
- van dyke [[connection to van dyke lrt/brt/art)
- gratiot/city airport [[connection to gratiot lrt/brt)
- chandler park
- east english village
- grosse pointes/eastland [[connection to 8 mile brt)
- east detroit
- roseville [[at martin rd)

future expansion:
- macomb mall [[connection to gratiot lrt/brt)
- metro beach [[connection to big beaver/metro parkway brt/art)
- mt.clemens

what do you guys think? I personally think they should take out the proposed warren line and add this one in its place. It would be much more useful for the entire area and connect the airport to the region in a different way from the aa-detroit commuter rail and michigan avenue lrt/brt. I think this can work.

brilliant!!!! I love it with a passion

[Bham1982]

As far as demand, one of the key knocks that holds Cobo Hall back from attracting more convention business is the fact that out of town conventioners who fly in are forced to either take an expensive cab ride back and forth downtown or have to pay to drive and park a rented car. Creating an airport-downtown line would simply create demand by its existence because Cobo would be able to attract more convention business.

A rail line would certainly be a nice amenity, but I doubt it would make any difference with conventioners. It would be good for visitors and younger folks, though.

The biggest convention cities, by far, are Orlando and Vegas, neither of which have airport rail or remotely decent public transit.

And I doubt too many conventioners would take public transit when their taxis and/or rental cars are already paid for.

[EL Jimbo]

A rail line would certainly be a nice amenity, but I doubt it would make any difference with conventioners. It would be good for visitors and younger folks, though.

The biggest convention cities, by far, are Orlando and Vegas, neither of which have airport rail or remotely decent public transit.

And I doubt too many conventioners would take public transit when their taxis and/or rental cars are already paid for.

Here is the thing though. Conventions are willing to look past the transit thing for places like Orlando and Vegas because they have so much to offer. Detroit is simply outclassed in terms of competing for conventions that are considering locales like Orlando or Vegas. However, in that next tier of conventions, surveys done by the convention bureau have shown that a lack of transit options between the airport and downtown have kept conventions from selecting Cobo for their convention.

As far as having rental cars and taxis paid for, one thing to keep in mind is that not all conventions are professional conventions. Some are religious, or for a variety of other groups. Nobody is going to have their transportation already paid for [[which only adds to the costs when you factor in the convention fees and hotels. Furthermore, in this economy, many companies have cut what they will cover for employees going to conventions. I know my work no longer covers ANY convention costs. For example, if I want to attend the annual American Planning Association National Conference [[In Boston this year) I have to pay for everything on my own dime.

[rbdetsport]

EL Jimbo, you make a good point about the convention business. I didn't even think about that. In my mind, I just think a rapid transit line on I-94 would just be good in all aspects for the region. Add conventions to the list of things that would be positively effected by this type of project.

[EL Jimbo]

EL Jimbo, you make a good point about the convention business. I didn't even think about that. In my mind, I just think a rapid transit line on I-94 would just be good in all aspects for the region. Add conventions to the list of things that would be positively effected by this type of project.

I disagree on I-94 transit. I don't like transit going down the middle of freeway right of ways. Transit works best when it interacts with the surrounding area near stops. That doesn't happen running along a freeway because the limited access of freeways would extend that limited accessiblity to the transit running down the middle of the right of way. For example, what good would a stop at the interchange between I-94 and the Southfield Freeway be? That's limited access times 2.

At least on the southern end, you could mirror this same corridor with the proposed commuter rail project that would interact with its surroundings at stops in Ann Arbor, Ypsi, The Henry Ford, Dearborn, and New Center. I think this is just far more superior [[and cheaper).

Which leads me to my final point. I-94 through Detroit is outdated as it is. It needs to have a LOT of things happen to it for just the pavement to be modernized to where current standards are. Adding the construction of some form of rail line down the middle would simply EXPLODE the cost of that corridor work even more because the entire trench would likely have to be widened. It's simply a non-starter because of the cost.

[professorscott]

It's good that people are thinking about such things. Freeway median transit works pretty well in some places - think Chicago. Usually people are connecting to a bus for the "last mile" of the trip. It also works well to have some kind of rapid transit on an arterial, like the Woodward light rail.

Unfortunately in southeast Michigan we do not have the structures in place to build such things. The Woodward light rail line, if it gets built at all, will stop before 8 Mile which is idiotic but that is all the political structure will support.

If we are ever to have actual transit like every other big-city region has, we have to destroy these parochial structures that force us into opposition with our neighbors and make regional projects impossible. But nobody in leadership is even having these conversations, and the people rejected the constitutional convention, which is necessary.

So these conversations are and will remain pipe dreams. We refuse to actually fix our problems. And we continue to suffer.

[Russix]

One bus running between downtown and the airport 18 hours a day would be a good start. And a sign at the airport that actually says "TO PUBLIC TRANSIT ->" would help alot too.

[Wesley Mouch]

...I-94 through Detroit is outdated as it is. It needs to have a LOT of things happen to it for just the pavement to be modernized to where current standards are. Adding the construction of some form of rail line down the middle would simply EXPLODE the cost of that corridor work even more because the entire trench would likely have to be widened. It's simply a non-starter because of the cost.

See other threads / articles elsewhere on I-94 scheduled by feds/state for major overhaul anyway, so it might be the other way around. This could be the cheap alternative.

[HuronTrader]

I totally agree. Skip the light rail on Woodward [[it will be a bust) for now and transfer the funds to a DTW to downtown line. This might actually make money, especially with the stops you have listed, even straight down Michigan Ave. would work. I live in Chicago and its is very convenient taking the L to ORD or MDW. The trains are full with early AM flight passengers and during rush hour.

[Detroitnerd]

One of the nice things about commuter rail is it often sparks transit oriented development where it stops.

One of the problems with this idea is that you would have a mode that serves high density [[small blocks, tall buildings, narrow streets, walkable, bikable, liveable, busy, enjoyable) along a route that serves low density [[strip malls, park and sleep condos, fast food franchises, all set back far from the freeway itself, which nobody wants to live by).

So it might be nice to travel from place to place, but your stops wouldn't spark any TOD worth talking about. In this regard, it's a bad idea.

[Hypestyles]

I support this, this should be mailed to mayor bing's office, SEMCOG, also Ray Lahood, Rick Snyder, Ficano, Hackel..

[rbdetsport]

Spot on professorscott. These damn political leaders are not getting anything done. In regards to a line like this not creating TOD, I disagree. While it would probably have a smaller effect than a Woodward or Gratiot Line would have, this type of access would surely attract people. People will move to an area where they can jump on the freeway or take the train. Just this weekend I heard my cousin say that he located himself where he did in Chicago because it gave him the convenience of choosing to drive his car to work, or take the train downtown or to O'Hare. The whole reason the region became so sprawled and collapsed was because the interstate system gave people the ACCESS and MOBILITY to travel to work by car in a much shorter time than they could when there were only arterial and surface streets. People could live comfortably 40 miles away and still work downtown. That is why suburban sprawl happened in the first place. This idea goes right back to that and could reverse it. It brings convenience and choice to residents.

[canuck]

Montreal's AMT or suburban train authority is copying Chicago that way by building a new median track on a freeway on the eastern periphery of the island. Ot saves land usage and is pretty convenient in other ways. I think your idea of pushing the suburban train issue is dead on rbdetsport . I wouldnt take a way the Woodward line though.

[Gistok]

Living only 3 blocks from I-94/I-696 interchange, I think that this idea would be nice, since I could take rail to Metro Airport.

However.... there's a flipside to this.... right now ALL the bridges on I-94 between Conner and the Jeffries Fwy need to be rebuilt... due to the procrastination about whether or not a 4th lane would be added to I-94 between those 2 junctions.

However... the addition of a rail system in the median of I-94 would require the rebuilding of every single bridge east of Conner and west of the Jeffries... even though most of those are less than 10 years old. Plus the right of way [[Eminent Domain) that would be needed to widen the roadway would require significantly more than the amount required for just a 1 lane increase in each direction planned for I-94 between Conner & Jeffries.

This project would cost way more than the $1 billion projected for the I-94 widening... and I don't see the feds or state having the money to kick in their share.

[EL Jimbo]

Living only 3 blocks from I-94/I-696 interchange, I think that this idea would be nice, since I could take rail to Metro Airport.

However.... there's a flipside to this.... right now ALL the bridges on I-94 between Conner and the Jeffries Fwy need to be rebuilt... due to the procrastination about whether or not a 4th lane would be added to I-94 between those 2 junctions.

However... the addition of a rail system in the median of I-94 would require the rebuilding of every single bridge east of Conner and west of the Jeffries... even though most of those are less than 10 years old. Plus the right of way [[Eminent Domain) that would be needed to widen the roadway would require significantly more than the amount required for just a 1 lane increase in each direction planned for I-94 between Conner & Jeffries.

This project would cost way more than the $1 billion projected for the I-94 widening... and I don't see the feds or state having the money to kick in their share.

Actually it wasn't procrastination at all. I can't go into specifics, but let's just say that there were some disagreements between the state and the feds as to how to address that corridor.

[BrushStart]

The biggest convention cities, by far, are Orlando and Vegas, neither of which have airport rail or remotely decent public transit.

And I doubt too many conventioners would take public transit when their taxis and/or rental cars are already paid for.

I don't know about Orlando, but Vegas has all types of shuttles and buses, public and private, that run back and forth between the airport and the strip. I used the LV bus system on many occasions to get to the airport. To be honest, I don't even know how a city like Detroit and its airport can each exist without transit connecting the two. What the hell are travelers supposed to do? When you think about it, the whole situation is completely ridiculous. There are hundreds of thousands of people who fly into Metro Airport every year that are going downtown, and we MAKE them rent a car or pay for Metro Cab. That's real nice. Why don't we just make them BUY a car for the weekend. Or, better yet, why don't we just build a giant mine field with barbed wire and booby traps around the whole airport so that guests in our state have to bear-crawl their way to their destination. I'm sure that will keep people flowing in and spending money. I mean, could we make it any more difficult to access our region?

[Trumpeteer]

I,m sorry but easy fairly inexpensive transit between an airport and a downtown DOES make a difference to both conventioneers and other visitors. I'm going to Chicago in two weeks and will take a shared van service from Midway to the Loop for only $54 roundtrip for two including luggage! We're coming to Detroit next weekend for a visit and have to rent a car and pay $20/day at the Courtyard on Jefferson for parking. And no the local busline is not an option.

[fryar]

I don't know about Orlando, but Vegas has all types of shuttles and buses, public and private, that run back and forth between the airport and the strip. I used the LV bus system on many occasions to get to the airport. To be honest, I don't even know how a city like Detroit and its airport can each exist without transit connecting the two. What the hell are travelers supposed to do? When you think about it, the whole situation is completely ridiculous. There are hundreds of thousands of people who fly into Metro Airport every year that are going downtown, and we MAKE them rent a car or pay for Metro Cab. That's real nice. Why don't we just make them BUY a car for the weekend. Or, better yet, why don't we just build a giant mine field with barbed wire and booby traps around the whole airport so that guests in our state have to bear-crawl their way to their destination. I'm sure that will keep people flowing in and spending money. I mean, could we make it any more difficult to access our region?

In point of fact, I have long argued that the best way forward is to raise the airport fees at DTW sufficiently to cover additional connecting airfare [["Surprise!") to a similarly sprawly but sunnier location like Phoenix or Orlando, thereby obviating the need for any infrastructure investments whatsoever and proceeding directly to Go.
Well, Stop. Or fail. Take your pick.

[fryar]

I,m sorry but easy fairly inexpensive transit between an airport and a downtown DOES make a difference to both conventioneers and other visitors. I'm going to Chicago in two weeks and will take a shared van service from Midway to the Loop for only $54 roundtrip for two including luggage! We're coming to Detroit next weekend for a visit and have to rent a car and pay $20/day at the Courtyard on Jefferson for parking. And no the local busline is not an option.

Fail it is, then.

[fryar]

FWIW, Southeast Michigan would be a far superior place for people to live if it had some kind of commuter rail running down a median between the feeder highways to downtown. This is a good idea, one way or another.

I don't see why the problems with this can't be solved. Boston's got some kind of a madman's supermarket, Shaw's I think, over one of the highways there.


It would appear that we are in a position to engineer parking structures above I-94 for suburban commuters, a bridge that likely will need crossing [[I crack me up) anyway.

[Brian1979]

The blue line also goes down the median of the Eisenhower [[290). The red line goes down the median of the Dan Ryan. I support trains running in the medians of expressways, I love that urban vibe you get driving into Chicago on the Dan Ryan.