New development aims to make Detroit a popular port of call

[begingri]

New development aims to make Detroit a popular port of call

DETROIT FREE PRESS STAFF WRITERS

A $21.5-million port development along Detroit's riverfront will debut next month with the tall order of changing how the waterway is used.

The port -- located between Hart Plaza and the Renaissance Center -- is the latest piece of the ongoing revitalization of Detroit's riverfront and is the key to hopes of luring Great Lakes cruise ships, starting a Detroit-Windsor ferry and creating a new era of waterfront tourism.

The project mirrors efforts of other Great Lakes port cities looking to maximize their waterfronts, including Cleveland, but critics doubt that Detroit has the demand to match the cost.

"On net balance, these kinds of investments are little more than expensive ribbon-cutting ceremonies," said Michael LaFaive with the free-market Mackinac Center think tank in Midland. "If this was a valuable addition to Detroit's waterfront, entrepreneurs would fall over themselves to fund it."

The Detroit/Wayne County Port Authority plans a ribbon-cutting next month; the Grande Mariner cruise ship is expected to be among the first to use the new dock in July.

A bustling riverfront is "not as far-fetched as people might imagine," countered John Kerr, the port authority's economic development director. "Port communities across Michigan are looking at what we're doing."

Several cruise ships each year have sailed the Great Lakes since 1997. They stop in cities such as Toronto and Chicago but have skipped Detroit.

"We are excited about it." Conlin said of the port. "Definitely it is a 'build-it-and-they-will-come' thing."

http://www.freep.com/article/20110503/NEWS05/105030322/New-development-aims-make-Detroit-popular-port?odyssey=nav|head

[Bham1982]

Exactly how many cruise boats travel the Great Lakes? I'm guessing very, very few. Like 2 or 3 in a good Summer.

And then how many lack sleeping accomodations? I'm guessing none.

So the economic impact will likely be slim to none.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

If you read the article, there is already one ship scheduled to stop twice this summer. Time will tell; more options can only help whatever Great Lakes cruise ship industry there is. I'm not surprised that the wackos at the Mackinaw Center downplay it, because anything that involves the dreaded public money is evil.

[DetroitPlanner]

Detroit is a major port on the Great Lakes. Not many other ports would give tourists access to fine museums such as the DIA and the Henry Ford, bustling entrtainment venues like the Fox, Comerica Park, the Opera House, or three Casinos within walking distance of the People Mover.

Its no surprise that the Mackinaw Center does not like it. They don't like anything done in areas where people don't vote 95 percent republican. Now only if they could have built this in Grand Rapids or Midland they would love it.

The facility won't just operate for cruise ships but for existing ships such as the Princess or the Diamnd Jack. The Port Authority also recently recived funding to buy its own ferry boats to service the Detroit River as a mode of public transportation.

[Searay215]

This is a great start in my opinion....but you can do more, for example New York city has this thing called Pier 17, lots of shops and dinning by the water....they could do that were the Ford Auditorium is...see photos.
Somewhere for tourists to go once they come here....and for locals to go durring lunch hour.

[ghettopalmetto]

Detroit is a major port on the Great Lakes. Not many other ports would give tourists access to fine museums such as the DIA and the Henry Ford, bustling entrtainment venues like the Fox, Comerica Park, the Opera House, or three Casinos within walking distance of the People Mover.

You mean, if only there were some way to transport the cruise ship passengers from the port to any of those venues. Is Detroit going to make them rent cars or--better still--take a $50 cab ride? Or will Detroit wake the fuck up and start building a public transit system that wouldn't necessarily embarrass a Third World nation?

[bailey]

If you read the article, there is already one ship scheduled to stop twice this summer. Time will tell; more options can only help whatever Great Lakes cruise ship industry there is. I'm not surprised that the wackos at the Mackinaw Center downplay it, because anything that involves the dreaded public money is evil.

I know, especially since things like major Ports in the middle of a city on an international border are really fricken easy to build if you are just some private citizen. Bitch about how it's not needed at all, but this is something that only a government entity can build.

[DetroitPlanner]

You mean, if only there were some way to transport the cruise ship passengers from the port to any of those venues. Is Detroit going to make them rent cars or--better still--take a $50 cab ride?

Cruise ships are tour providers. They will know how to charter buses.

[SWMAP]

And charter coaches are the prefered way to move groups from one site to another.

[ghettopalmetto]

And charter coaches are the prefered way to move groups from one site to another.

Says who? What if not everyone wants to go to the same place?

If you have a couple thousand people on a boat, where the fuck do you propose to put a minimum of 40 motorcoaches downtown?

That's the Detroit way, though: Find the least efficient, most expensive possible way of doing things, and pray to God that it works the way you hope it will. This is just like forcing bars to provide "free" shuttles to the Joe and Comerica Park for their patrons, or forcing people to take an expensive airport shuttle. Because God forbid, you can't have any kind of socialist claptrap public transportation in the Motor City--not when there are far more easier ways to discourage tourism!

[Bham1982]

If you have a couple thousand people on a boat, where the fuck do you propose to put a minimum of 40 motorcoaches downtown?

I don't think we're talking huge cruise ships, like you see in Florida and New York Harbor.

I'm pretty sure these are smaller 100-passenger boats, if that. I'm not even sure if it's feasible to have ocean-going passenger ships in the Great Lakes. How would they get here, and do all the clearances even work for that type?

[ghettopalmetto]

I don't think we're talking huge cruise ships, like you see in Florida and New York Harbor.

I'm pretty sure these are smaller 100-passenger boats, if that. I'm not even sure if it's feasible to have ocean-going passenger ships in the Great Lakes. How would they get here, and do all the clearances even work for that type?

They have 1400-ft ocean-going iron ore freighters on the Great Lakes, don't they???

I stand corrected. Great Lakes Cruise Company has a boat with just over 200 cabins. That may not be "a couple thousand" people, but you'd still need a small fleet of motorcoaches to transport the several hundred passengers. And that still doesn't resolve the problem of individuals having their own, independent itineraries. What if Mr. Joe Blow wants to shop downtown but can't, because the Regimented Fun Police decide that they're going to bus *everyone*--regardless of what they actually want to do--to the Henry Ford?

[Bham1982]

They have 1400-ft ocean-going iron ore freighters on the Great Lakes, don't they???

Yeah, I know about the freighters, but the ocean cruise ships have weird dimensions. I know that they often require major infrastructure changes, such as raising bridges, dredging seaways, expanding sea locks, etc.

[Detroitnerd]

See, what we have to do is build all sorts of big-ticket things that are going to attract super-rich people downtown where they will stay approximately as long as it takes for them to eat, watch a game or go to a museum. Actually providing services for the people who live here? A waste of money ...

[Rocko]

They do not have 1,400 ocean going iron ore freighters on the Great Lakes. They have 13 1,000+ foot Great Lakes iron ore boats which are captive to Lakes Superior, Huron, Michigan and Erie. Nothing in excess of 740'x78' can transit the St. Lawrence Seaway.

And it's funny how the Free Press didn't interview anyone from either Diamond Jack's or the Detroit Princess for their article. Diamond Jack's used to run tours from the Hart Plaza dock just to the west of here, but tours moved a couple years ago from there to the new Rivard Plaza and Pavilion to the east of the RenCen.

Diamond Jack's public sailing season begins just over a month away on June 9, sailing again from Rivard Plaza.

[Hypestyles]

... I hope this becomes a major development, and hopefully this will help spin into a means of immigrants to come, also developing an entertainment/amusement park district at the riverfront..

[ghettopalmetto]

They do not have 1,400 ocean going iron ore freighters on the Great Lakes. They have 13 1,000+ foot Great Lakes iron ore boats which are captive to Lakes Superior, Huron, Michigan and Erie. Nothing in excess of 740'x78' can transit the St. Lawrence Seaway.

Hmmmm. That must be why the Poe Lock is 1200 feet long. And why I've personally seen ships under flags from Europe and Southeast Asia travel through that lock. The US Army Corps of Engineers has had plans on the shelf for years to demolish the two smaller locks and construct a lock even larger than the Poe, to accommodate newer, larger ocean-going vessels. That must be because nothing in excess of 740'x78' can transit the St. Lawrence Seaway, right?

If your theory were correct, you might want to explain zebra mussels and sea lampreys, which are not native to the Great Lakes, but most definitely native to saltwater environments.

But yeah, like Detroitnerd said: throw a whole mountain of cash at some huge, complicated, stupid-ass project that someone thinks will increase tourism, then wonder why the city is broke when the tourists don't show. When it comes to simple, everyday basic necessities like clean streets, transit, parks, lighting, police, snowplowing--fuck it. Detroit don't need any of that shit--just tourists. Gotta keep tricking, er "luring", people downtown--everything else is unimportant.

[bailey]

They have 1400-ft ocean-going iron ore freighters on the Great Lakes, don't they???

I stand corrected. Great Lakes Cruise Company has a boat with just over 200 cabins. That may not be "a couple thousand" people, but you'd still need a small fleet of motorcoaches to transport the several hundred passengers. And that still doesn't resolve the problem of individuals having their own, independent itineraries. What is Person A wants to shop downtown but can't, because the Regimented Fun Police decide that they're going to bus *everyone*--regardless of what they actually want to do--to the Henry Ford?

Ok, i get what you're saying but day excursions and side trips are pretty much the norm for cruise ships at ports of call. Not a lot of towns with mass transit on those Alaskan or Caribbean ports of call. I could see tours set up.... Get on the blue bus for Meadowbrook or Edsel Ford House, the yellow for the Henry ford, or the green for the Museum district. Having that set up is also good for crowd control and ensuring the passengers all make it back.

Again...sort of 'meh' on the whole thing. Great lakes cruisers are looking to get to the north channel and wilderness cruising... not stopping in detroit in the first place.

[SWMAP]

I'm in a group moving business and I know that people who have to move groups prefer to keep them all together and have an appointment with the mover - hence chartered coaches. Motorcoaches hold, on average 56 people. Two hundred people is smaller than the average church group going on a trip - two or three coaches. The Detroit region has an inventory of approximately 120 coaches run by the big carriers. You can see about 40 coaches alone on Indian Trails lot at Detroit Metro. There area dozen smaller operators with an inventory of two or three coaches.

As to people who don't want to be "regimented" - they generally don't sign on to group tours whether on a ship or a bus. And when you do sign on, you pay in the package for your trip to The Henry Ford and dinner and then the DIA - the itinerary is arranged in advance, publicized in advance and paid for in advance.

And let's acknowledge that it will be years before lots of group tourists would feel comfortable leaving their group to walk around downtown on their own, or pursue their own escapes away from the group.

[iheartthed]

This is a great start in my opinion....but you can do more, for example New York city has this thing called Pier 17, lots of shops and dinning by the water....they could do that were the Ford Auditorium is...see photos.

Most people know it as the South Street Seaport. But the Navy Pier in Chicago is probably more similar in concept to what Detroit is planning. I don't think the Seaport acts as much of a port anymore, except for the tourist boats around Manhattan.

[Gistok]

They have 1400-ft ocean-going iron ore freighters on the Great Lakes, don't they???

No they don't.... the maximum lenth of an ocean ship that can taverse the Welland Canal is 740 feet. All the 1000 ft + ore carriers on the Great Lakes are confined to the upper 4 lakes, and they have to be less than 1200 ft. long and 110 ft. wide to traverse the largest of the Soo Locks... the Poe Lock.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welland_Canal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soo_Locks

The [[since retired) 963 ft. long QE2 could never have made it thru the Welland Canal, and it is likely that none of the super cruise liners can either.

[[P.S. Sorry to sound repetitive... but I typed this out while other posters already answered the questions about size of ocean vessels on the Great Lakes).

[bailey]

No they don't.... the maximum lenth of an ocean ship that can taverse the Welland Canal is 740 feet. All the 1000 ft + ore carriers on the Great Lakes are confined to the upper 4 lakes, and they have to be less than 1200 ft. long and 110 ft. wide to traverse the largest of the Soo Locks... the Poe Lock.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welland_Canal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soo_Locks

The [[since retired) 963 ft. long QE2 could never have made it thru the Welland Canal, and it is likely that none of the super cruise liners can either.

Also, i don't think the Port in question was constructed with the mega cruise ships in mind, so not sure why it's even an issue.

[ScienceFair]

Hmmmm. That must be why the Poe Lock is 1200 feet long. And why I've personally seen ships under flags from Europe and Southeast Asia travel through that lock. The US Army Corps of Engineers has had plans on the shelf for years to demolish the two smaller locks and construct a lock even larger than the Poe, to accommodate newer, larger ocean-going vessels. That must be because nothing in excess of 740'x78' can transit the St. Lawrence Seaway, right?

If your theory were correct, you might want to explain zebra mussels and sea lampreys, which are not native to the Great Lakes, but most definitely native to saltwater environments.

That is absolutely correct, ocean freighters or "salties" as they are sometimes called come from all over the world and spill their bilge all over our lakes, but none of them are more than 730ish feet long or 75 feet wide. You will find salties anywhere from a couple hundred feet long to well over 1,000 feet long, however the latter are not found on the Great Lakes.

I'm excited about the possibility of a ferry running across the river.

[Rocko]

Hmmmm. That must be why the Poe Lock is 1200 feet long. And why I've personally seen ships under flags from Europe and Southeast Asia travel through that lock.

It is 1200 feet long to accommodate all vessels in excess of 740' in length, which is the maximum size the smaller active MacArthur Lock at the Soo can accommodate. The Salties going to Lake Superior can use either lock. I think there's a width restriction on the Mac Lock, though.

The US Army Corps of Engineers has had plans on the shelf for years to demolish the two smaller locks and construct a lock even larger than the Poe, to accommodate newer, larger ocean-going vessels.

This is incorrect. The USACE is demolishing the older and smaller Davis and Sabin locks so it can build a new 1,200 x 110 foot lock identical to the Poe in order to accommodate US and other large Great Lakes vessels, should the Poe have a mechanical problem. Otherwise all boats over 740' would be stuck either in or out of Lake Superior. In addition to the 13 1000 footers, at least a dozen other vessels cannot use the Mac Lock due to their length - River Rouge traders James L. Oberstar [[formerly the Charles M. Beeghly), the Lee A. Tregurtha, and the Kaye E. Barker come to mind as a few of them. Canadian and international vessels would get the benefit of the use of the new lock, but it is NOT being built specifically for them.

If your theory were correct, you might want to explain zebra mussels and sea lampreys, which are not native to the Great Lakes, but most definitely native to saltwater environments.

Until you explain your theory of zebra muscles or sea lampreys being in excess of 740'x78', then my theory of them arriving in international vessels at or below that size will stand.

[mwilbert]

This is an example of the type of cruise ship that could traverse the Welland Canal if for some reason it was desirable for it to do so:

MS Europa