new catholic cathedral st. anthony

**priest** · May-02-11, 07:57 AM

hello in detroit
my name is dr. klemens probst from germany
I am a married roman catholic priest and I want
to testify to all people in detroit
that archbishop dr karl rodig who is primas of the ecumenical catholic church of christ is truly catholic and within apostolic lines and it is importand to know that it is not bishop karl who divides himself from the catholic church unity. it is the roman clergy who seperates true members of the church like bishop karl.
god bless him

**dtowncitylover** · May-02-11, 12:25 PM

I'm pretty sure it is Karl Rodig who I met at an Indian Village house party. I can't remember much about him, but Catholic Church splinter groups have an uphill battle against the Church of 1 Billion people and 2,000 years of history.

**1KielsonDrive** · May-02-11, 06:27 PM

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

I'm pretty sure it is Karl Rodig who I met at an Indian Village house party. I can't remember much about him, but Catholic Church splinter groups have an uphill battle against the Church of 1 Billion people and 2,000 years of history.

Might [[and numbers) makes right.

**lizaanne** · May-04-11, 08:49 AM

"priest" - you do not represent the Catholic Church established by Jesus Christ through His Apostles over 2000 years ago. You defy Church teaching, you are as Protestant as any other splinter group among the 30,000+ out there. Make no mistake - you may be playing house in what used to be a CATHOLIC Church, but you are by no means Catholic. Shame on Bishop Rodig for causing leading souls away from the fullness of Truth.

**priest** · May-04-11, 12:06 PM

dear lizaanne
you dont know what you are writing. i was ordained by the cardinal of munich in 1989 and the secretary of pope benedict did concelebrate at my frist holy mass. as you know being catholic the ordination to priesthood is is for ever and cannot be withdrawn. when i got in trouble with the celibate I went to my bishop and told him. he could not give me help but just threw me out of my ministries. but I am sent by jesus not by the cardinal. he cannot take off from me what jesus has given me.

think about it and pray for us all to do what jesus would do
god bless you
klemens

**lizaanne** · May-06-11, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by priest

think about it and pray for us all to do what jesus would do
god bless you
klemens

You need to get yourself right with God, and with the Church His Son established here on earth. Just because YOU have an issue with your own definition of the Church, does not mean the Church must change - it is YOU who must change.

We don't need wishy-washy priests who turn tail and create the "church of me" because they can't live according to their vows. We need good holy men who can realize they have made a mistake, ask for forgiveness, and then amend their lives to live right with the Church.

Here - this is a good start at helping you get it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8x2emdM8Q8

**SWMAP** · May-06-11, 12:37 PM

I would drop this. Just know that Rodig's own mother over on the west-side is chagrined and embarrassed by how he's boosted himself up in the world and is now a "bishop" of some sect. Don't bump this discussion anymore and it will die.
As a matter of fact, i think it's a good observation for this whole thing that if it is good, it will last aand grow and what is not good will collapse and die out.

**NorthofNormal** · May-06-11, 02:45 PM

Lizanne, while you are lecturing other people about denying Church teaching and getting right with the Church, you may want to remember that "Real" Catholic TV is NOT an approved apostolate in the Archdiocese of Detroit.

**Zozo** · May-06-11, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by NorthofNormal

..."Real" Catholic TV is NOT an approved apostolate in the Archdiocese of Detroit.

Not approved as in denied or not approved as in not on the list yet?

**DetroiterOnTheWestCoast** · May-06-11, 03:13 PM

Perhaps the Church should just reinstate some time-honored traditions of the Inquisition, and burn these heretics at the stake after a bit of torture.

**lizaanne** · May-06-11, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by NorthofNormal

Lizanne, while you are lecturing other people about denying Church teaching and getting right with the Church, you may want to remember that "Real" Catholic TV is NOT an approved apostolate in the Archdiocese of Detroit.

Find me one single thing ever said by that apostolate that is not in line with the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. You can't because it does not exist.

Just because the AOD has some unknown issue with the apostolate [[that they fail to give concrete examples of) does not mean that there is anything wrong with the content of the programing.

**priest** · May-06-11, 06:22 PM

yes if it is goód it will grow - we will see
by the way: what mothers think and say
is not automatically right. did you notice
that the mother of jesus as reported at
marcus, matthew and luke tried to withhold
jesus from preaching because she thought
he has got mad ?
Other than most bishops [[and i know a
lot of them personal) Karl understands hmself
as a servant. for him to be a bishop means tio
do more for his brothers and sisters but not to
upgrade himself. time will show.

**canuck** · May-06-11, 07:13 PM

Originally Posted by lizaanne

Find me one single thing ever said by that apostolate that is not in line with the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. You can't because it does not exist.

Just because the AOD has some unknown issue with the apostolate [[that they fail to give concrete examples of) does not mean that there is anything wrong with the content of the programing.

Thanks for using my second favorite word in the english language after "inbred"; magisterium!
Apostolate sounds good too. I'm seriously considering it for my third favorite. Is there any copyright on these? I love big impressive sounding words. They are usually good for intimidating people.

**Gistok** · May-06-11, 07:34 PM

I've always wondered how for the first 1,000 years of the 2,000 year history priests WERE allowed to marry... and then "presto-chango"... they no longer are allowed to marry.

It sort of reminds me of "Papal Infallability"... which only dates to 1878. When the Pope lost all of the Papal states of central Italy to the newly formed country of Italy [[taking all but the Vatican)... the Pope suddenly announced the premise of Papal Infallability.... that all the pronouncements [[or was that only Papal Bulls?) suddenly became the absolute word of God.

Even as a "heathen" Lutheran, I admire the Roman Catholic Church... but I do find some of its' ideals... the words and work of man.... and not the words and work of God.

**dtowncitylover** · May-06-11, 11:32 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

It sort of reminds me of "Papal Infallability"... which only dates to 1878. When the Pope lost all of the Papal states of central Italy to the newly formed country of Italy [[taking all but the Vatican)... the Pope suddenly announced the premise of Papal Infallability.... that all the pronouncements [[or was that only Papal Bulls?) suddenly became the absolute word of God.

Well no, Papal infallibility and the use of it has been around for centuries and has, according the RCC, scriptual support. It was defined dogmatically [[I know, big words!) in 1870, solidifying what it is and when it is to be used.

But alas, sorry lizaanne, the Catholic Church is just like the USA. There's so many opinions about different subjects, which doesn't make either of us right or wrong and doesn't get us into trouble, more or less, something I love about being Catholic. It's not black and white, there's tons of grey.

Me wishing priests could marry does not make me a candidate for ex-communication. Neither does the nun at my alma mater high school saying she wishes she could do Mass.

**priest** · May-07-11, 01:21 AM

thats it and thats what "catholic" means

**SWMAP** · May-07-11, 09:45 AM

The celibacy rule in the western church was put in place to correct issues to do with ownership of church properties [[the priest could not own them and a married man would want to Aquire property for the support of his wife and family. Also there grew resentments from the other people at having to support the priest and his family, often paying for dowries, education, schools. Just the Apostle Paul predicted, the priest was necessarily divided in his loyalties. So the secular priests were required to follow the monastic model. Even now, in the Eastern Rite churches, a married man can be ordained if already married [[ but cannot be a bishop), but cannot be ordained and then decide to marry.
There is more to it, of course, but the root is the financing needed for the support of families. Financing the minister to a fair degree is probably behind the push for tithing in many non-Catholic churches and that is a concept you don't hear much in Catholic churches.

DetroitPole · May-07-11, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by SWMAP

The celibacy rule in the western church was put in place to correct issues to do with ownership of church properties [[the priest could not own them and a married man would want to Aquire property for the support of his wife and family. Also there grew resentments from the other people at having to support the priest and his family, often paying for dowries, education, schools. Just the Apostle Paul predicted, the priest was necessarily divided in his loyalties. So the secular priests were required to follow the monastic model. Even now, in the Eastern Rite churches, a married man can be ordained if already married [[ but cannot be a bishop), but cannot be ordained and then decide to marry.
There is more to it, of course, but the root is the financing needed for the support of families. Financing the minister to a fair degree is probably behind the push for tithing in many non-Catholic churches and that is a concept you don't hear much in Catholic churches.

Of course this is largely accurate, and if financing really is the root, certainly such an archaic rule should be done away with. Since they'd be married, their wives would likely work, and in today's economy, a priest probably makes about as much as your average college grad can look forward to nowadays. As it was pointed out, Eastern Rite priests have wives, and so do Orthodox and Anglicans, and none of those people are awash in cash or supported like the non-denominationals.

Of course, then silly shit like this happens and even incoming Western Rite priests are allowed to keep their wives:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_810696.html

I think the hypocrisy is pretty apparent. Even if you're ultra-orthodox Catholic, you know that it is a rule that is subject to change, unlike, say, the Assumption.

Now regarding this dude and his church, I'm not going to attend there or anything, but I'm guessing this was one of the parishes shuttered by the Archdiocese. Now, if this guy is managing to operate this church and maintain this incredible building while doing something positive for some people, or at least, innocuous, then I say go in peace. Otherwise the place would be scrapped and preyed on and occupied by evil-doers.
So maybe from a theological standpoint this guy is way off, but from the standpoint of the City of Detroit and the eastside, I welcome him.

I will say he needs to get a better design firm for his logo. Cheesy as all get-out.

**SWMAP** · May-07-11, 11:28 AM

Hypocracy isn't the right word for a well- considered policy. I didn't read the link but assume that you are referring to the special admittance of Anglican priests to the Roman Church. This will model the ordination of married Eastern rite men in that the married anglicans will be ordained as priests in the Roman rite because they cannot trace their Anglican ordinations to Peter. During the English Reformation some Bishops were created out of the line and so the Catholics can't confirm a "valid" episcopal lineage.

**George Cassidy** · May-08-11, 09:09 AM

Religion, women and politics.

**NorthofNormal** · May-08-11, 05:17 PM

Not approved as in denied or not approved as in not on the list yet?

A bit of both. From an AoD statement posted here: "The Detroit archdiocese . . . gave them direction as to the additional information and steps that would need to be taken. . . .While there have been some discussions, the matter with St. Michael’s Media remains unresolved; it is not an approved apostolate....The RealCatholicTV enterprise has yet to present itself or receive approval of its apostolate and programming from the Detroit archdiocese."

And, Lizanne, that is the official word of your beloved Magisterium--of which the Archdiocese of Detroit is the only relevant part when it pertains to local organizations. Sorry that it's not what you want to here, but to quote someone upthread, "Just because YOU have an issue with your own definition of the Church, does not mean the Church must change - it is YOU who must change."

**lizaanne** · May-09-11, 10:18 AM

Well - let's just wait and see how that all shakes out shall we. There is much more to come on the topic of the AoD and RealCatholicTV, believe me. I'm not the least bit worried about that "statement" - it has little basis in reality.

**Gistok** · May-09-11, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by SWMAP

The celibacy rule in the western church was put in place to correct issues to do with ownership of church properties [[the priest could not own them and a married man would want to Aquire property for the support of his wife and family. Also there grew resentments from the other people at having to support the priest and his family, often paying for dowries, education, schools. Just the Apostle Paul predicted, the priest was necessarily divided in his loyalties. So the secular priests were required to follow the monastic model. Even now, in the Eastern Rite churches, a married man can be ordained if already married [[ but cannot be a bishop), but cannot be ordained and then decide to marry.
There is more to it, of course, but the root is the financing needed for the support of families. Financing the minister to a fair degree is probably behind the push for tithing in many non-Catholic churches and that is a concept you don't hear much in Catholic churches.

SWMAP.... LOL... tithing in Detroit unfortunately has [[in a few instances) the unintended consequence of financing the mansion of the minister in Bloomfield Hills.

And the real resentment of property ownership eventually was against the church itself. Before Henry VIII started the dissolution of the monastaries in Britain in 1536-39 [[and broke from the Catholic Church so that he could divorce Katherine of Aragon and marry Anne Boleyn)... you could travel the 80 miles from England's learning centers of Oxford and Cambridge without leaving Church lands.

Back then there was a lot of animosity [[and jealousy) over the vast land and wealth ownership of the church, by the nobility as well as the peasantry.

GUSHI · May-09-11, 07:18 PM

Well it's one less empty building in Detroit, lol, the church is atleast not getting stripped of metals and things.

**cjd** · May-09-11, 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

I've always wondered how for the first 1,000 years of the 2,000 year history priests WERE allowed to marry... and then "presto-chango"... they no longer are allowed to marry.

I don't know that this is all relevant to the OP's post, but I believe it necessary to correct the record regarding the Catholic Church and its views on priestly marriage. First, although not stated, I believe the comments are directed at "Roman Catholic Church" aka the Latin Rite. It is the case in many Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church, that marriage is allowed.
Second, with respect to the claim that "presto chango" priests were suddenly not free to marry after 1000AD, that is simply false. The discipline of non-married or celibate priests is as old as the Church herself. While early on many priests were married, priests were generally not allowed to get married, i.e, married men could become priests but priests could not get married. Additionally, for the most part the marriage was considered to be only in title once they became priests [[and a large concern was how to ensure the wives would be taken care of). It was for this reason that St. Jerome [[d. 420) said of men who became priests, "even though they may have wives, cease to be husbands". Moreover, St. Epiphanius [[d. 403) described the rule, stating: "[The] Holy Church respects the dignity of the priesthood to such a point that she does not admit to the diaconate, the priesthood, or the episcopate, no nor even to the subdiaconate, anyone still living in marriage and begetting children. She accepts only him who if married gives up his wife or has lost her by death, especially in those places where the ecclesiastical cannons are strictly attended to"

The record is replete with references to, if not abstention from marriage, celibacy once ordained. See Council of Elvira [[303), Cannon 33 [[deacons, priests, and bishops required to be celibate); Council of Nicea, Cannon 3 [[no women beside mother, sister, or aunt can live in the house with an ordained). See also Councils of Agde [[506), Orléans [[538), Tours [[567) [[all prohibiting even those already married from cohabitation with wives); Council of Ancyra, [[314) Neo-Caesarea [[315)[[canons forbidding priest from marrying). But see Council of Trullo [[692)[[forbiding a bishop from marrying after ordination but allowing relations with a spouse from a pre-ordination marriage)[[strain of discipline eventually flowed through to Eastern Rite Catholic Churches). St. Ambrose recognized that by the end of the 4th century, even though some priests in the outlying areas were still married, the many laws forbidding marriage were the general rule.

Indeed, there were deacons, priests, and bishops who may have ignored the discipline during the years, especially between 600-1000AD. However, it was for that reason that Pope Gregory VII in 1075 [[following many previous pronouncements by earlier popes), unequivocally banned non-celibate priests from saying Mass and from all ecclesiastical functions.

I don't believe there has been any meaningful challenge since the late 1000-1200s but, as history demonstrates, it was not a new idea in 1000AD but rather a very old tradition that, at times, was ignored by wayward clergy.