At What Price Would You Consider Putting Solar Panels or a Wind Turbine on Your Roof?

**HistoryNotHisStory** · April-29-11, 07:16 AM

The Solar market and the Renewable Energy Market is booming in California, Arizona, Colorado, and Florida.

However, in Michigan, even with incentives and benefits, the market is stagnant.

So, I ask the question, at What cost would you consider putting Solar Panels for hot water heating, Solar PV for electricity or Wind Turbines on your property?

**Mind field** · April-29-11, 11:26 AM

Good question! I work in the renewable energy industry and i would love to have solar panels on my roof or have wind turbine. But there are a few problems. I live in a condominium complex, so the roof above my head belongs to everyone in my multi unit building, not just me. I'm always hearing how prices for solar panels continue to drop and will soon reach parity with some fossil fuel produced electricity. If i owned my own single family detached home, i would probably opt for solar panels before wind. I think the payoff period is shorter for solar than wind. And i would drop anywhere from 2-7 thousand dollars and see what kind of a system i could get for that, probably gradually adding a panel or two every year or so.

**TKshreve** · April-29-11, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by Mind field

Good question! I work in the renewable energy industry and i would love to have solar panels on my roof or have wind turbine.

Mind Field - I've been considering my options about entering this industry as a career. I really like where it is going. Any advice? Got a job?

**Mind field** · April-29-11, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by TKshreve

Mind Field - I've been considering my options about entering this industry as a career. I really like where it is going. Any advice? Got a job?

i sent you a PM

lilpup · April-29-11, 02:39 PM

Hey, maybe we can't afford solar panels yet but plenty of folks have solar garden lights now!

**old guy** · April-29-11, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by Mind field

Good question! I work in the renewable energy industry and i would love to have solar panels on my roof or have wind turbine.

So, if you work in the renewable energy industry, what are you seeing in peoples interest towards solar and wind. I've been looking for smaller, made in the U.S. equipment. I've been playing around with models and miniature devices just to get a feel for it. I'm also seeing what look like a bunch of scam artists on TV lately touting incredible deals. I hope a lot of people don't get sucked into scams and we see this fall by the wayside because of it.

The last time alternative energy got somewhat popular in the late 70' - early 80's, I owned a house in the country and utilized some low tech ideas. I built a solar hot water pre-heater to warm the frigid well water before it entered my hot water heater and saved a bundle. It was an old house and I replaced some small windows on the south side with large thermo pane windows and that made a huge difference. I just hope that people use common sense this time around. Back then panels were really expensive and eventually everyone lost interest. Going super high tech all of a sudden usually means huge expenses. I'd really love to see this industry take off though. It's the only way prices will come down.
One of the key factors in making it work is using the power you harness more efficiently. It's a lot easier to convert solar for use in powering LED lights than it was to power an old light bulb.
More than saving money, I'd just like to be at least partially off the grid.

lilpup · April-29-11, 03:15 PM

Have you found LED lights to use in place of conventional incandescents? All I've seen so far are specialty bulbs/accent lighting. I hate CFLs and am hoping standard styled LEDs will be available before incandescents fade away.

**Corn.Bot** · April-29-11, 03:19 PM

I would like to hear your opinion of Honeywell's 'Windtronics' turbine, which very much impressed me when I saw it at a home show recently.

It seems to be a much more intelligent design than the windmill and would fit on my house roof [[actually, 2 would, and then I could purportedly sell back to the power company if I didn't use all the energy), versus not having a place for a windmill tower.

**old guy** · April-29-11, 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by lilpup

Have you found LED lights to use in place of conventional incandescents? All I've seen so far are specialty bulbs/accent lighting. I hate CFLs and am hoping standard styled LEDs will be available before incandescents fade away.

I just saw an ad on TV last night for LED light bulbs. I'm afraid to check the price on them though. Sounds like a breakthrough.

I have two CFL bulbs that burned out after about one year of usage. What's up with that? They were in rooms where the lights are only on for about an hour or so a day too.

**gazhekwe** · April-29-11, 08:37 PM

Do we in Southeastern Michigan have enough sunlight to make solar panels a reasonable alternative. I may not be remembering correctly, but it seems to me that, from Thanksgiviing to Tax Day, we had more cloud than sun here. Solar needs pretty steady sunlight to work well. Here, we would need backup power for sure.

Wind is another issue. It works best when wind conditions are at the proper angle and are pretty constant. Big trees and big buildings break up the wind and weaken its power.

I found a chart that shows the potential for solar, but I can't make heads or tails out of it. It doesn't give an optimal number. Detroit is page 2.

http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/pubs/redbook/PDFs/MI.PDF

**oldredfordette** · April-30-11, 07:40 AM

This home turbine is also interesting: http://inhabitat.com/philippe-starck...wind-turbines/
I haven't been able to interest my condo association in this yet but I keep plugging away.

Vox · April-30-11, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by Corn.Bot

I would like to hear your opinion of Honeywell's 'Windtronics' turbine, which very much impressed me when I saw it at a home show recently.

It seems to be a much more intelligent design than the windmill and would fit on my house roof [[actually, 2 would, and then I could purportedly sell back to the power company if I didn't use all the energy), versus not having a place for a windmill tower.

I suspect that you will be disappointed in the performance of any wind turbine in an urban environment.

From what I read, I would save 18 dollars a month on my energy bill, with an cost of around 6K after incentives. Not exactly a world beater, is it?

**Corn.Bot** · April-30-11, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by Vox

I suspect that you will be disappointed in the performance of any wind turbine in an urban environment.

From what I read, I would save 18 dollars a month on my energy bill, with an cost of around 6K after incentives. Not exactly a world beater, is it?

Well, I'm not exactly in an urban area. We're residential bordering rural, inland in southwest Michigan. I liked that the Honeywell turbine starts 'generating' at about 2 MPH [[versus the windmill needing winds of 7-8 MPH); and the display model was virtually silent. I surely did not like that it would take 2 turbines to generate enough energy to power my relatively small home, at a startup cost of $13-15,000... how long to 'recoup' that expense? SIGH. It sure ain't a world beater. On the other hand, to my under-educated mindset, the concept seems like a step in the right direction when it comes to considering getting off the grid.

**HistoryNotHisStory** · April-30-11, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by gazhekwe

Do we in Southeastern Michigan have enough sunlight to make solar panels a reasonable alternative. I may not be remembering correctly, but it seems to me that, from Thanksgiviing to Tax Day, we had more cloud than sun here. Solar needs pretty steady sunlight to work well. Here, we would need backup power for sure.

Wind is another issue. It works best when wind conditions are at the proper angle and are pretty constant. Big trees and big buildings break up the wind and weaken its power.

I found a chart that shows the potential for solar, but I can't make heads or tails out of it. It doesn't give an optimal number. Detroit is page 2.

http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/pubs/redbook/PDFs/MI.PDF

In Michigan, most Designers and Installers based their payback estimates that the we in Michigan see approximately 4 peak hours of sun per day.

**old guy** · April-30-11, 05:21 PM

There is enough sunlight in southern or central Michigan to make solar a viable alternative. Wind power is a bit trickier to utilize. You should really test an area for wind speed and how constant it is before you try it. Other buildings, even a fair distance away will skew the air currents.

They are coming up with better and less costly products. I wouldn't doubt that with enough interest and some really bright minds working in the alternative energy field, we'll start to see advances that we don't even consider right now. Remember, necessity is the mother of invention. The way I'm reading the meter, necessity is growing pretty fast.

lilpup · April-30-11, 06:19 PM

I think you might be making it harder than it is. Even if you add just a few things to start without totally getting off the grid you'll see a benefit while learning your way to better efficiencies.

Check out some of the smaller projects out there and see what ideas you could borrow from them.

Here's a program involving schools, showing the projects they're working on - http://energyworksmichigan.powerdash.com/home/

I don't know if this guy is still around or not, but here's an article about his home solar experience - notice in particular one of his major changes is just reducing his power usage in general by over 50% [[from 18 Kw/day down to 8) - http://blog.mlive.com/annarbornews/2...ls_help_p.html

**wolverine** · April-30-11, 08:43 PM

I would consider using more low energy appliances and lighting before investing in pricey solar collection equipment. If you live in a big household with an incredible amount of electrical usage it may be worth your money to buy this equipment, but there will be some big up-front costs.

The majority of people's energy bill is involved in heating and cooling their house. If it's your intention to offset those costs, solar collection is a complete waste of money. Geothermal heating and cooling runs pipes down into the earth and uses the relatively constant temperatures to reduce the heating and cooling loads on your home. Yes, alot of equipment still, but it's incredibly efficient and generally takes less maintenance.

There's a home at 1785 W. Ainslie St. in Chicago, IL that gives a public demonstration of this system.

**old guy** · April-30-11, 09:07 PM

Originally Posted by lilpup

I think you might be making it harder than it is. Even if you add just a few things to start without totally getting off the grid you'll see a benefit while learning your way to better efficiencies.

Check out some of the smaller projects out there and see what ideas you could borrow from them.

Here's a program involving schools, showing the projects they're working on - http://energyworksmichigan.powerdash.com/home/

I don't know if this guy is still around or not, but here's an article about his home solar experience - notice in particular one of his major changes is just reducing his power usage in general by over 50% [[from 18 Kw/day down to 8) - http://blog.mlive.com/annarbornews/2...ls_help_p.html

If you were speaking to what I was saying, I actually agree with your quote. I say take it a little at a time, do what you can. I also agree with wolverine, you need to modernize what you're trying to create power for.
I've actually put together a small unit to light my enclosed back porch and entry area for under $20. My next plan is to add a small panel that will charge my cell phone, digital camera batteries and two small LED emergency lanterns in case of a blackout. I love messing around with this stuff.

Even if you live in an apartment building or high rise, you can get small panels to attach to the inside of your windows to charge phones or a laptop or to use for emergency lighting.

**HistoryNotHisStory** · May-01-11, 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by lilpup

Have you found LED lights to use in place of conventional incandescents? All I've seen so far are specialty bulbs/accent lighting. I hate CFLs and am hoping standard styled LEDs will be available before incandescents fade away.

You can find LED bulbs and fixtures at Home Depot!

**HistoryNotHisStory** · May-01-11, 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by Corn.Bot

I would like to hear your opinion of Honeywell's 'Windtronics' turbine, which very much impressed me when I saw it at a home show recently.

It seems to be a much more intelligent design than the windmill and would fit on my house roof [[actually, 2 would, and then I could purportedly sell back to the power company if I didn't use all the energy), versus not having a place for a windmill tower.

A normal wind turbine required 8-9 mph of wind speed to produce energy. In most residential areas, the wind speed average is not even at 8 mph.

The Honeywell product is great because it produces power at speeds below 8 mph. More energy than most other small wind turbine system.

I like their product!

Vox · May-02-11, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by HistoryNotHisStory

A normal wind turbine required 8-9 mph of wind speed to produce energy. In most residential areas, the wind speed average is not even at 8 mph.

The Honeywell product is great because it produces power at speeds below 8 mph. More energy than most other small wind turbine system.

I like their product!

If you read their technical pdf below, you will find that the amont of power at .5 mph would not even light a light bulb. Where it starts producing power is not the issue, it's the quantity. Maybe 100 watts at 10 mph. I would think that is not a great investment for what one gets out of it.

http://www.earthtronics.com/pdf2/201...-3-18-2011.pdf

**old guy** · May-02-11, 03:02 PM

You're not really using the wind power to light a bulb or run an appliance though. You're collecting the energy to charge a battery or series of batteries which in turn power the bulb.
Even the little outdoor solar garden lights charge a AA battery during the day and store enough energy to run the light all night.

I still don't have a great deal of confidence in wind turbines unless you're in an ideal location though.

**Corn.Bot** · May-02-11, 07:45 PM

I like wind turbines better than solar. I have a couple of solar marker lights on either side of my driveway apron that glow brightly from dusk to dawn most summer nights. The same lights are dim or out by 2 a.m. on any given February night, even if the daylight hours were sunny.

On the other hand, wind is 24/7, and if the Honeywell turbine starts generating at .5 mph, then it would be collecting energy even on calm days. I don't believe that even in Michigan, wind speeds are consistently below half-a-mile per hour any given day for any length of time.

**Corn.Bot** · May-02-11, 07:52 PM

And a detail that I just noticed: Earthronics appears to be based in Muskegon. I wonder if they manufacture the turbines there.

**old guy** · May-03-11, 09:53 AM

I think the ideal situation would be to combine solar and wind generating capabilities. On days when there isn't much sunlight, you might have a front moving in or out and generally have more wind.

Corn.Bot, the first thing I started playing around with were those small outdoor solar path lights. I bought a dozen of them 2 years ago just to see what they will produce. I grouped 3 of them together by mounting them on a piece of wood. Then I put a reflector behind them. I set them on an outdoor windowsill by my back door during the day and tried bringing them inside at night just to see how much they would actually light a room. I was somewhat amazed considering the fact that the total square inches of solar panels was about 12 square inches. Might sound silly but you can learn a lot from small experiments like that. I now use a small grouping of 3 on the picnic table in my backyard at night and it provides enough light. I left a number of them out in my yard over the winter just to see how durable they are. After being covered in snow drifts and subjected to sub-zero temperatures they all still work fine.
Right now I'm looking at a few micro wind turbines they use to teach kids about alternative energy. Hey, you can talk about this stuff all day long, but seeing what they will actually do teaches me more and more every day. There are also a lot of Youtube videos on the subject and some interesting projects that people are building for little or no expense.