Woodward rail project held up because of usage disputes

[bailey]

I can not believe this has not been resolved yet...

A crucial dispute about the very nature of the proposed Woodward Avenue light-rail line in Detroit threatens to further delay or even block the project.
Should it be a speedy transit service to hurry people quickly to and from downtown? Or should it operate as a slower, perhaps friendlier, trolley-type line with frequent stops to aid business and tourism?


http://www.freep.com/article/20110428/BUSINESS06/104280509/Woodward-rail-project-held-up-because-usage-disputes?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE

A line that backers once predicted would be up and running by now, at least in its downtown section, won't come on line now before 2016.

Shocker.

[Vox]

Bring on the BRT. For what they would pay for this POS service, you could provide the area with a BRT system that would really bring a more efficient, and equitable service to the region, not just the hipsters in Midtown.

From the page:

How to pay for the long-term operation of the project. Ultimately, supporters
say, a region-wide rail system, for which the Woodward line is seen as a first
step, will require a regional tax.


Operating the line, as is the case with virtually all such lines elsewhere,
would require a public subsidy.


And getting a state subsidy for the Detroit light-rail line would, in all
likelihood, require putting control of the system into a regional transportation
authority. That could spark resistance in Detroit to giving up control of a key
piece of city infrastructure. At the same time, suburban voters may balk at
approving a tax seen as largely benefitting the city.

Wow. so now the City is pissing about the suburbs stealing a jewel that isnt even built yet. AND a regional tax for support of this. Better get used to riding the bus guys, this is a non-starter.

That PRT proposal is looking better and better.

[BrushStart]

This is unbelievable...

Me to the politicians: "Get light rail done or get voted out!"

[Vox]

This is unbelievable...

Me to the politicians: "Get light rail done or get voted out!"

Right. And you want the region to pay for this without control. Like that will happen.

[bailey]

This is unbelievable...

Me to the politicians: "Get light rail done or get voted out!"

Sounds like the delay is just as much the fault of the private money demanding the curb side debacle as it is the politicians.

[Bham1982]

This is actually a critical issue, though.

What is this project? Is it an economic development project, or a transportation project?

If it's economic development, it should run trolley-style along Woodward, and resouces should be concentrated on expanding within city limits.

If, however, it's a transportation project, it should run more light-rail style, with widely spaced stations, and needs to enter the suburbs.

The Grand Trunk corridor should be considered, since the right-of-way already exists, and Woodward north of 6 Mile isn't really pedestrian friendly or transit-oriented development friendly.

Even in places like Royal Oak, I can't see Woodward ever having a pedestrian-friendly feel. The traffic is incredibly loud and fast.

[drjeff]

If it takes 20 minutes to go from Grand Circus Park to WSU, which is only a little over a mile, nobody is going to take this thing. If it takes 5 minutes, it will be busy, and I would take it several times a week.

I would think the pedestrian crossing issue could be fixed easily with crosswalks that are activated when needed, such as the hawk type.

I'm not sure I like the plan to route it through Rosa Parks either [[although I understand why that would be desirable), unless it continues down to the riverfront as well.

And I really don't understand why it would take 4 years to build this from the river to Grand Blvd. As I recall, Baltimore only took 2 years to get some of their lines up and running and they also went through downtown.

[Russix]

The Pedestrain safety issue is rather moot point considering you have to cross the street to go the other way. Good article pointing out that if stops are too close together, people walk rather than ride: http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in...as_debate.html

[drippyhollows]

such a waste of money. Especially the sum they are talking. If it was 2 million It would be whatever but $528 million. Hardly anybody north of Midtown and South of 7 mile along Woodward have any business downtown unless they are going to court or coming home from jail and besides... Between DDOT and the SMART bus a bus comes thru every 15 minutes. Probably less. People back in Palmer Woods can mostly afford to drive. That line should stop at the boulevard. Better yet they should scrap it all together. Put light rail between 9 mile and 15 mile instead. Have it run up Main Street in Royal Oak

[rbdetsport]

Alright, this thread obviously brought out the shit of this forum. This issue has been debated time and time again. If you don't think Detroit needs this new rail line, then that is your opinion. But the public-private backers will get this done with or without you.

drippyhollows, can you be any more racist or discriminatory? Have you ever even been to that area of the city?

[iheartthed]

This thing is never gonna get built.

The Free Press should set up a light rail countdown clock on their web site. It should count the time from when the project was first announced to the current date. It should also denote the proposed construction start dates and service start dates. For instance, the count should go from green to say red if we get to the proposed service start and the service hasn't actually started. Just put it in the corner of their web site and let it sit.

[casscorridor]

Isnt the purpose of the EIS to decide this? I thought it was done.

What studies show a curb-running line is safer or will benifit development? Why will anyone ride this thing if it takes an hour to get from Jefferson to Grand Blvd because there are so many stops and it gets stuck in traffic and behind cars trying to parallel park? So if no one rides it how will that help development at all?

Seriously, if the curb-running streetcar is built rather than traditional center-running light-rail the consequence will be the end of transit infrastructure expansion for at least 30 years. In other words, People Mover 2.0


I think this article shows total incompatancy of our government and our ruling capitalist class. And the inability to acomplish ANYTHING in Michigan. Even the most simple thing, like building a few miles of light rail track when most cities in the world already have rail systems, is impossible. There are cities more than half the size of Detroit with dozens of miles of track and multiple lines. Heck, even Hampton Roads is getting one, does anyone even know where that is???

Seriously, have these idiot rich dudes even tried walking between the proposed stations?? Try walking between Mack and Warren, it is not that far. It takes about 10 minutes. That means halfway, aproximately Willis or Canfield St is only a 5 min walk to the nearest station, or about 4-5 blocks!! Have these people ever walked anywhere period? I doubt they have ever lived in a city with a functional mass transit system and used it ever day otherwise they wouldn't have their heads rammed up their asses!!!

For compromise sake, why not put a provision for additional infill stations if after the line is open the distance between stations becomes a problem? Why stall this project that we need so desperately?

Also, FYI, if thing isnt built then I am moving out of state and never coming back. Im sure there are others with me. The decline of the city will not stop without a decent rail transit system.

LIGHT-RAIL OR BUST!

[Detroitnerd]

It's because the big-money backers of this want this to be their toonerville trolley, not a serious light rail system. I'll bet they know the public voted for center-running, and now they're raising a stink. They're freakin' fools if they want to build People Mover 2.0 and stall transit for another generation by building a system that won't work...

[bailey]

Isnt the purpose of the EIS to decide this? I thought it was done.

What studies show a curb-running line is safer or will benifit development? Why will anyone ride this thing if it takes an hour to get from Jefferson to Grand Blvd because there are so many stops and it gets stuck in traffic and behind cars trying to parallel park? So if no one rides it how will that help development at all?

Seriously, if the curb-running streetcar is built rather than traditional center-running light-rail the consequence will be the end of transit infrastructure expansion for at least 30 years. In other words, People Mover 2.0


I think this article shows total incompatancy of our government and our ruling capitalist class. And the inability to acomplish ANYTHING in Michigan. Even the most simple thing, like building a few miles of light rail track when most cities in the world already have rail systems, is impossible. There are cities more than half the size of Detroit with dozens of miles of track and multiple lines. Heck, even Hampton Roads is getting one, does anyone even know where that is???

Seriously, have these idiot rich dudes even tried walking between the proposed stations?? Try walking between Mack and Warren, it is not that far. It takes about 10 minutes. That means halfway, aproximately Willis or Canfield St is only a 5 min walk to the nearest station, or about 4-5 blocks!! Have these people ever walked anywhere period? I doubt they have ever lived in a city with a functional mass transit system and used it ever day otherwise they wouldn't have their heads rammed up their asses!!!

For compromise sake, why not put a provision for additional infill stations if after the line is open the distance between stations becomes a problem? Why stall this project that we need so desperately?

Also, FYI, if thing isnt built then I am moving out of state and never coming back. Im sure there are others with me. The decline of the city will not stop without a decent rail transit system.

LIGHT-RAIL OR BUST!

You should start packing then because what eventually gets built is not going to be a decent rail system.

[iheartthed]

You should start packing then because what eventually gets built is not going to be a decent rail system.

I doubt anything even gets built. This project was announced 5 years ago and a shovel has still yet to hit the ground.

[j to the jeremy]

It's because the big-money backers of this want this to be their toonerville trolley, not a serious light rail system. I'll bet they know the public voted for center-running, and now they're raising a stink. They're freakin' fools if they want to build People Mover 2.0 and stall transit for another generation by building a system that won't work...

This.

Everyone in the know, knows the center-running option is better. The EIS itself found that to be the case. And I'm sure that the center-running option was selected in the EIS process.

I'm guessing the CEOs just realized that no Federal money will build the line unless the center-running option is chosen, because that is the "law" once the EIS is completed. They seem to want to use their portion of the money as a bargaining chip with DDOT, to see how many uesless stops they can squeeze in between the Fox and Hart Plaza.

[Bham1982]

It's because the big-money backers of this want this to be their toonerville trolley, not a serious light rail system. I'll bet they know the public voted for center-running, and now they're raising a stink. They're freakin' fools if they want to build People Mover 2.0 and stall transit for another generation by building a system that won't work...

I think you're right, and I think these folks don't understand [[or even care about) transportation planning.

They view it as an economic growth tool, not a regional mobility initiative. This sort of mindset will likely be People Mover 2.

I'm amazed at folks' short memories. We already had street-running trolleys on Jefferson and Washington Blvd. They were dismal failures, and eventually ripped out.

[rsa.313]

Isnt the purpose of the EIS to decide this? I thought it was done.

it is. this piece is much-raking at it's finest. these are all issues that have already been dealt with months ago and the alternative has been chosen, just not officially released yet.

[socks_mahoney]

Its sad how unschocking this is. I've always said that the M-1 was just people mover 2.0 in the form of Mike Illitch's carnival ride.

The line doesn't connect any disparate corridors, which is an essential function of mass transit. A rapid bus system, with its own lane and technology that makes lights turn green when the bus is coming would be much faster, chepaer, and more useful. Routes could change as need changed. Additionally, bus stops could be upgraded to get seats [[really, not a luxury) and signs that show when the bus is going to come [[done through the same GPS system that gets the lights to turn green when the bus approaches an intersection).

Its baffling that we can't set up a bus system in this city that works. A great deal of citizens are without automobiles in a giant city, there is a huge market for a viable mass transit system, if only we would commit to making it without shiny bells of a Woodward Light Rail. We need comprehensive mass transit, not a carnival ride that is indeed, slower than the bus that already runs along that route.

[drippyhollows]

drippyhollows, can you be any more racist or discriminatory? Have you ever even been to that area of the city?

Have I ever been to that area of the city? Have U? Just because it is insensitive doesn't mean its false.

[bailey]

it is. this piece is much-raking at it's finest. these are all issues that have already been dealt with months ago and the alternative has been chosen, just not officially released yet.

How is it muck raking? what in the article is factually untrue? The article references a statement made yesterday about the many differences that need to be resolved.

Matt Cullen, the chief executive of the M-1 group of private investors, expressed optimism.
"I feel like we're encouraged by our opportunity to better understand what's going on, and we're having a good dialogue with folks," he said Wednesday. "Ultimately, it's Mayor Bing's call as to the design, and assuming that all of our folks are comfortable with the design and budget and operational sustainability of it, then we're in."

Nice phrasing. sounds much nicer than, "do it the way we want or we and a our 150 mill walk."

[drjeff]

Have I ever been to that area of the city? Have U? Just because it is insensitive doesn't mean its false.

In fact it is both utterly false and incredible ignorant. There are a lot of places people visit for entertainment purposes downtown such as restaurants, bars, clubs, theaters, etc. And it would be nice not to have to worry about parking or having too much to drink before driving home.

[mwilbert]

I don't know if it is muckraking so much as it is relatively content-free. It doesn't actually say what differences have to be resolved, it just quotes the M-1 head saying that there need to be more discussions. The article then brings up a list of questions, none of which are new, and doesn't indicate that those questions are in fact related to current points of difference.

It may well be that the reporter knows more about the actual issues than the M-1 folks were willing to be quoted on, and that is why the article is written in this rather indirect way, but in terms of actual content the article is a nothingburger. it doesn't even use background quotes to indicate what people are actually worried about, and some of those worries seem made up. For instance:

That could spark resistance in Detroit to giving up control of a key piece of city infrastructure. At the same time, suburban voters may balk at approving a tax seen as largely benefiting the city.

Note that this isn't information from anyone. It appears to be the reporter's opinion. And indeed, It could and they may. Then again, perhaps not. Are these concerns of the city? Or of the M-1 group? Who knows.

[canuck]

Have I ever been to that area of the city? Have U? Just because it is insensitive doesn't mean its false.

Try using a broader brush next time you do your paint-by-numbers thing. You should have said; nobody lives there. It's the next one up on the insensitive scale.

[canuck]

I'm disappointed, but from my vantage I see a lot of projects in my city that idle for years too. I think it may be a good sign if this means a better conclusion for M-1. And mwilbert, You are right in reading btwn the lines of this article. Conjectures by the author can only lead to more by the reading public...