City council approves bond sale for Woodward light rail

**Chris Rohn** · April-11-11, 03:48 PM

Detroit council approves bond sale for Woodward light rail
Darren A. Nichols / The Detroit News

Detroit— The City Council today passed about $100 million in funding for the light rail project along Woodward Avenue.

The council voted 8-0 to approve $125 million in bonds and a $25 million federal Transit Investment Generating Economic Recovery grant. Officials said passing the money today is a key first step in an effort to finally get a light rail system in Detroit. About $74 million in the bonds will go to the rail project and another $50 million will go to buses and other improvements.

"Detroit is a world-class city, and we should not be without rapid transit," Council President Charles Pugh said. "The fact we've gotten to this point where we have a real commitment from the federal government [[and) leadership in this city. Now we need the next step.

"This is something that we need [[and) we want. It will improve development along that Woodward corridor. This is exciting. It's a big day for the city."

The funding passed today will pay for the M-1 project from the Michigan State Fairgrounds to the New Center area. Officials said $100 million has already been pledged from local investors to complete the local match for funds. The entire project will cost $528 million, officials said.

The funding passed today will pay for the first leg of the M-1 project, a 3.4 mile, 12-station line from Hart Plaza to the New Center area. Ground breaking is expected to start in 2012 and it should be running by 2015, officials said.

"It means we're off and running and Detroit is going to be with the first leg with the M-1 line being the initial starting point," Council President Pro Tem Gary Brown said. "It gives us the starting point and the ability to raise dollars and get [[funding) from Washington before others capture those dollars."

dnichols@detnews.com

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From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20110411/...#ixzz1JFXrwU7q

Vox · April-11-11, 04:24 PM

That's nice that there is funding for bus transportation in that package. It helps to be able to get to the light rail. Also, not everyone is able to live in and around the line, although some may say that would be preferable. Only problem in this proposal is, how the bonds would be paid back.

**Detroitnerd** · April-11-11, 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by Vox

Also, not everyone is able to live in and around the line, although some may say that would be preferable.

Explain why it would be preferable to not live around the line.

Vox · April-11-11, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Explain why it would be preferable to not live around the line.

I didn't say it wasn't preferable, I only said it may not be possible to have everyone live in and around the line. There's only so much land in the area, and not everyone wants to rent and live in an apartment.

**Detroitnerd** · April-11-11, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by Vox

I didn't say it wasn't preferable, I only said it may not be possible to have everyone live in and around the line. There's only so much land in the area, and not everyone wants to rent and live in an apartment.

You said some may say it would be preferable to not live in and around the line. I am asking you why some may say that. Surely you have an answer. What is it?

Bear in mind, there are private homes within a 15-minute walk of Woodward.

Vox · April-11-11, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

You said some may say it would be preferable to not live in and around the line. I am asking you why some may say that. Surely you have an answer. What is it?

Bear in mind, there are private homes within a 15-minute walk of Woodward.

I said:

Also, not everyone is able to live in and around the line, although some may say that would be preferable.

I also am fairly aware that not everyone is able to walk that far, either. I'm sure that you are going to be young forever? Some people are disabled, others have breathing and heart problems. I'm sure that those could just go without?

**Detroitnerd** · April-11-11, 05:08 PM

I don't see how what I described you as saying and your original sentence differ much. The sentiment is there that people may not want to live near a rail line. I would like to hear why you think that is so.

Originally Posted by Vox

I also am fairly aware that not everyone is able to walk that far, either. I'm sure that you are going to be young forever? Some people are disabled, others have breathing and heart problems. I'm sure that those could just go without?

That doesn't make much sense, Vox. I lived in New York City for 11 years, and I saw plenty of old people walking around just like the rest of us. In fact, if you're disabled, I should think you'd like to be near mass transit, since driving would be such a chore. Frankly, if your breathing or heart problems are such that you cannot stand a 15-minute walk to a light rail stop, you don't need to live near a rail line, you need to be in a hospital.

But, aside from all these diversions about what kind of place you'd live [[which didn't answer the question) and what kind of health you're in [[which didn't answer the question), I am genuinely curious and patiently waiting for you to propose why some people may not want to live near a light rail line. Do you have an answer?

Vox · April-11-11, 05:08 PM

Not only that, but the noise generated by a light rail line is fairly large in comparison to other modes of transportation.. I'd consider that before moving right next door to a track either.

**Detroitnerd** · April-11-11, 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by Vox

Not only that, but the noise generated by a light rail line is fairly large in comparison to other modes of transportation.. I'd consider that before moving right next door to a track either.

This is as close as you've come to an answer yet. Thank you. Unfortunately, I don't know what kind of light rail lines you've been exposed to in the past, but they have a reputation for being quiet. They're electrically powered. There is no roaring engine, just a quiet electric motor. You might hear a "whoosh" or soft rumble, but that's about it.

So, since that's out, are there any other reasons why some may not want to live near a light rail line?

Vox · April-11-11, 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

This is as close as you've come to an answer yet. Thank you. Unfortunately, I don't know what kind of light rail lines you've been exposed to in the past, but they have a reputation for being quiet. They're electrically powered. There is no roaring engine, just a quiet electric motor. You might hear a "whoosh" or soft rumble, but that's about it.

So, since that's out, are there any other reasons why some may not want to live near a light rail line?

I for one don't have any objection to living close to one. You are reading what you want to see, as usual. Actually, I live not far from bus transportation and close enough to walk to Woodward in a pinch. What I am saying is that there should be competent feeder lines in to this line, whether you like it or not.

**Detroitnerd** · April-11-11, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by Vox

I for one don't have any objection to living close to one. You are reading what you want to see, as usual. Actually, I live not far from bus transportation and close enough to walk to Woodward in a pinch. What I am saying is that there should be competent feeder lines in to this line, whether you like it or not.

No, what you said is that some may not want to live near a light rail line.

Originally Posted by Vox

... not everyone is able to live in and around the line, although some may say that would be preferable.

What I'd like to know is, these people who are not able to live in and around the line, some of which would say it's preferable. Please let me know why these people would prefer not to. No dodging. No backpedaling. No changing subjects. Let me have it, please.

Vox · April-11-11, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

No, what you said is that some may not want to live near a light rail line.

What I'd like to know is, these people who are not able to live in and around the line, some of which would say it's preferable. Please let me know why these people would prefer not to. No dodging. No backpedaling. No changing subjects. Let me have it, please.

Great. My point would be, I don't want to live by YOU. I'd have to kill myself. And knowing that you are there would be good enough advertisment against even considering such a move to Detroit. .

**Detroitnerd** · April-11-11, 05:33 PM

Originally Posted by Vox

Great. My point would be, I don't want to live by YOU. I'd have to kill myself. And knowing that you are there would be good enough advertisment against even considering such a move to Detroit. .

Precisely the thoughtful, measured response I'd expected of you, Vox. Carry on.

**Rocko** · April-11-11, 06:17 PM

This is great. Another critical and real step toward making real non-bus mass transit a reality in the city of Detroit. My heart breaks every time I look at photos of PCC streetcars zipping down Woodward Avenue pre-1956, but hopefully this project, nearly 60 years later, will help continue to revitalization of Woodward and be the first step in a series of new light rail lines around the city.

And, I too am glad to see the investment in buses in Detroit as well. Anyone know what bus-related this funding is going toward? More new coaches? New bus stops? Be nice if they could use this to help the DDOT budget out and allow them to increase frequencies on some of the busiest routes....

**j to the jeremy** · April-11-11, 06:33 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

You said some may say it would be preferable to not live in and around the line. I am asking you why some may say that. Surely you have an answer. What is it?

Bear in mind, there are private homes within a 15-minute walk of Woodward.

Because many people commute to jobs on the East side, West side, etc. All of the bus lines need improvement, especially in the neighborhoods. Why do you always pick fights on here?

Good news on the bond sale passing. It's good to see that city council actually understands how much we need this.

**Detroitnerd** · April-11-11, 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by j to the jeremy

Because many people commute to jobs on the East side, West side, etc. All of the bus lines need improvement, especially in the neighborhoods. Why do you always pick fights on here?

Now that's actually a good, defensible reason why it may not be desirable to live near the line, if not a reason why living there would be undesirable. My scrutiny of Vox stems from my suspicion that he's disruptively trolling, but Lowell has asked me to be civil, so I'm trying to be as civil as I can.

But, yes, you're right. Detroit has suffered, traditionally, from a lack of crosstown thoroughfares. In streetcar times, there were some decent crosstown routes. Hopefully, after we get a few radial lines running, we can go for crosstown routes too. The Baker car, for instance, connected Southwest and Hamtramck. Wouldn't that be something? Dinner at El Comal followed by drinks at the Whiskey? Hope springs eternal...

**English** · April-11-11, 07:23 PM

A journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step.

Nice first step, Detroit.

**mwilbert** · April-11-11, 07:42 PM

But, yes, you're right. Detroit has suffered, traditionally, from a lack of crosstown thoroughfares. In streetcar times, there were some decent crosstown routes. Hopefully, after we get a few radial lines running, we can go for crosstown routes too. The Baker car, for instance, connected Southwest and Hamtramck. Wouldn't that be something? Dinner at El Comal followed by drinks at the Whiskey? Hope springs eternal...

This is an example of why it might be wise to consider building spurs off of Woodward before building full arterials. It happens that the particular trip you describe would be entirely feasible with the additional 12.5 miles of track I proposed in a different thread a week or two ago.

Out Jefferson to E Grand Blvd. 2.6 mi

Out Michigan to Vernor, Vernor to Clark 3.1 miles [[or go to Livernois, 4 mi)

Out Warren to Grand Blvd. 2.4 mi

I'd like to run a line from Jos. Campau down Caniff to Woodward, but I'm not sure how you could continue past the end of Caniff. Assuming you just go down Trowbridge, 1.6 mi

Down McNichols from Woodward to Wyoming 2.8 mi

That would be 12.5 miles of track. [[or 13.4 if you went to Vernor and Livernois).

**BrushStart** · April-11-11, 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by Vox

Great. My point would be, I don't want to live by YOU. I'd have to kill myself. And knowing that you are there would be good enough advertisment against even considering such a move to Detroit. .

I followed the exchange between you and DetroitNerd all the way down the page, and this made me laugh hysterically!

While I see what he was getting at, he just wouldn't lay off, and what you said was hilarious in that context!

Vox · April-11-11, 08:10 PM

Originally Posted by BrushStart

I followed the exchange between you and DetroitNerd all the way down the page, and this made me laugh hysterically!

While I see what he was getting at, he just wouldn't lay off, and what you said was hilarious in that context!

Yes, I imagine that's why they tossed him out of NY after 11 years. One can only take so much self-important pronouncements before critical mass is attained. And he stole my arterial idea too.

**Bham1982** · April-11-11, 08:28 PM

I have no idea what that exchange was even about.

For one, the Woodward corridor probably has about 10 times as many people living in houses as in apartment buildings nowadays.

It's like folks were discussing a street in some Detroit-doppelganger, where one had to walk 15 minutes to encounter the rare living arrangement known as a house.

There are quite a few houses even directly on Woodward, especially north of 6 Mile.

As to the bond sale, I would say this is excellent news, and I hope this all works out. I would not build the whole thing at once, but there are probably reasons for combining the segments.

**mwilbert** · April-11-11, 10:17 PM

There are quite a few houses even directly on Woodward, especially north of 6 Mile.

Are you sure you are thinking of the right street?

There are very few houses on Woodward north of 6 in Detroit. None at all on the west side of the street unless you count the backs of a few in Palmer Woods, basically none north of 7 on the east side, and hardly any south. If there are more than ten houses on Woodward in that entire two-mile stretch I would be surprised. And the ones there are, are in the highly blighted section near Goldengate.

**Detroit Stylin** · April-11-11, 10:20 PM

SO have they decided on an alignment yet since we are basically raising money now?

**Zug** · April-11-11, 10:48 PM

So what does the funding from today pay for? The article has both of the following statements:

"The funding passed today will pay for the M-1 project from the Michigan State Fairgrounds to the New Center area."

"The funding passed today will pay for the first leg of the M-1 project, a 3.4 mile, 12-station line from Hart Plaza to the New Center area."

I haven't kept good track of the developments, but I thought the first leg was going to be mostly privately funded...although I may be wrong. Also...why is there a 2012 ground breaking? Are there other financial hurdles or planning issues still to be resolved?

**Rocko** · April-11-11, 10:59 PM

I believe the final environmental impact statement must be completed...which should be in a few months. And then there's the lingering issue of Curb-Side vs. center-of-street running for the Grand Circus-New Center portion....nevermind the downtown routing of the line. Sure would be nice if they would just make up their mind on this and carry on. I'm not sure what else there is.