Countering Prejudice Towards Atheism

**maxx** · April-06-11, 01:37 PM

There's misinformation about atheists? Who woulda thunk?

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...m-and-religion

**1KielsonDrive** · April-08-11, 02:00 AM

Originally Posted by maxx

There's misinformation about atheists? Who woulda thunk?

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...m-and-religion

Tell anyone you're an atheist and they look at you like you're from another planet. I once worked with a group of women who were divorced, living unmarried with partners, had children out of wedlock, carrying on affairs, smoking dope, taking drugs, prescription and non, so on and so forth, and they were incredulous when I said I was an atheist, exclaiming their belief in christianity and jeebus, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah.. Not one of them self examined their very own lifestyle or the contradictions of it. You absolutely CAN'T not belief in the lord!

**gibran** · April-08-11, 03:08 AM

I generally do not have any negative feelings about anyones beliefs [[as long as they are peaceful) and I generally find people to follow their system of beliefs interesting .. that said... I hope that people whose beliefs are different than mine treat me in the same manner.. My beliefs are my own. There are many hypocrites in every system of beliefs..but to say one is stupid because it isnt mine is an example of those claiming moral higher ground and not practicing it.

**Searay215** · April-08-11, 08:34 AM

I personally don't care what religion or not you are, I do not hold it against you....but....the funny thing is even atheist believe in the 10 commandments. If not then we would have chaos....or are the 10 commandments just common sense? Your thoughts......

**MizMotown** · April-08-11, 10:04 AM

You don't want to believe in "a God" or a creator that's your perogative. Most fundy religious folks got it all backwards and twisted anyway.

Believe in truth. Believe in the reality past all the illusions and limited perceptions. The humblest thing you can say is "I don't know!" Because you DON'T know!

Today is a day of special dedication. We take a stand on but one side today. We side with truth and let illusions go. We will not vacillate between the two, but take a firm position with the One. [[1:1-4)
How happy to be certain! All our doubts we lay aside today, and take our stand with certainty of purpose, and with thanks that doubt is gone and surety has come. [[2:1-2) A Course In Miracles

**maxx** · April-08-11, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by Searay215

I personally don't care what religion or not you are, I do not hold it against you....but....the funny thing is even atheist believe in the 10 commandments. If not then we would have chaos....or are the 10 commandments just common sense? Your thoughts......

Atheists don't have any use for the first three of those commandments. And why infer that Christians and Jews were the only people to develop an ethical system? The golden rule is pretty universal.You can find similar wording to the commandments in the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

**maxx** · April-08-11, 12:35 PM

I don't care what anyone believes in as long as those beliefs don't affect my life. But there are a lot of people who don't know the difference between belief and fact.

**1KielsonDrive** · April-08-11, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by Searay215

I personally don't care what religion or not you are, I do not hold it against you....but....the funny thing is even atheist believe in the 10 commandments. If not then we would have chaos....or are the 10 commandments just common sense? Your thoughts......

The Ten Commandments as a belief system? Yes! The Ten Commandments as a religious system? NO!

**maxx** · April-08-11, 01:34 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTcsC...eature=related

**1KielsonDrive** · April-08-11, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by maxx

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTcsC...eature=related

Bill Maher has a great way of cutting through the whole mess. Thanks. Anyway, I'll amend my last statement to say the 'Ten Commandments' as a guideline. The bible is just a 'hysterical' text.

**rb336** · April-08-11, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by Searay215

I personally don't care what religion or not you are, I do not hold it against you....but....the funny thing is even atheist believe in the 10 commandments. If not then we would have chaos....or are the 10 commandments just common sense? Your thoughts......

Which ten commandments do atheists believe in?

all the ones that say "i'm god LOVE me or i will smite you" can pretty well go out the window. The rest are merely standard human morals that have been around looooooong before judaism.

**maxx** · April-08-11, 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by rb336

Which ten commandments do atheists believe in?

The law is not a question of belief but of rationality. Atheists look to human reason to establish laws. I know, it's a very optimistic view of people as opposed to the doctrine that we are all born in sin.

all the ones that say "i'm god LOVE me or i will smite you" can pretty well go out the window. The rest are merely standard human morals that have been around looooooong before judaism.

agreed

Scenes from "Religulous" with Bill Maher's commentary in between. "You don't need an intelligence test to be in Congress." This is too true, but is that a good thing?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CWiA...1&feature=fvwp

**maxx** · April-08-11, 06:08 PM

Apocalyptic desire fostered by religion could be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jETV...1&feature=fvwp

**maxx** · April-09-11, 01:58 PM

This type is the most virulent critic of atheism.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqhCH...eature=related

**Gistok** · April-09-11, 03:36 PM

Random thoughts...

God I miss the good ole days of the Albigensian Heresy....

.... or a good Hieronymous Bosch painting of the damned....

.... I wonder if Madelyn Murray O'Hare is burnign in Hell right now??

I guess like most topics on this thread.... we'll never know for sure... until...

**maxx** · April-10-11, 12:57 PM

Why would you even assume that there is a hell? It certainly doesn't fit into modern christianity's model of a just and merciful god. Therefore, it must be the creation of an older and sadistic culture. Why would a sadistic god reward anyone with a heaven? It's self-contradicting. But then the concept of hell preceeded the concept of the worth of the individual.

**Detroitej72** · April-11-11, 12:16 PM

The only folks I wish would disappear are fundamentalists.[[I don't care if they are Christian,Atheist,Muslim, Jewish,etc.) They are all dangerous and pose a threat to people's liberty.

**maxx** · April-11-11, 12:29 PM

They're only dangerous if they are politicians and/or armed.

**Locke09** · April-11-11, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by maxx

Why would you even assume that there is a hell? It certainly doesn't fit into modern christianity's model of a just and merciful god. Therefore, it must be the creation of an older and sadistic culture. Why would a sadistic god reward anyone with a heaven? It's self-contradicting. But then the concept of hell preceeded the concept of the worth of the individual.

I've thought about that a lot over the many years that I have been on this planet, because it's an argument that even some religious people express. I concluded that whether there is a hell or not, [[or even a god or not), the idea of hell is not necessarily contradictory to that of a "just" and "merciful" god. Neither is a god who "condemns someone to hell" necessarily "sadistic".

Lets start with the "sadistic" charge first. The basic definition of sadism is taking joy or finding pleasure in inflicting pain and suffering. The key is that the person has to like seeing others in pain. I don't think you'll find any passage in the Christian bible that even implies that there is joy or satisfaction when someone "goes to hell". The opposite is stated in multiple places, as in II Peter 2:9, for instance. Now I'm only quoting the bible because you referred to Christianity's model. Believe in the Christian God or not, it seems to me that there is no basis for the charge of sadism.

"Just" simply means right or fair. If there is a law, and you are advised of the consequences of breaking the law, it is just for the lawmaker to punish you in accordance with what the law prescribes. If there are provisions for you to mitigate the punishment by making some sort of amends, then the merciful lawmaker might revoke the punishment, even though you are still guilty. But of course, you would be expected to take whatever actions the lawmaker prescribes for receiving mercy. People normally at least want an apology before they grant mercy. They don't usually grant mercy to people who say: "What? I haven't done anything wrong. Plus, I don't think you can really do anything to me anyway."

For instance, I might think the current tax laws are unfair. But if I don't pay my taxes, and the IRS comes after me for back taxes, penalties and interest, they aren't really being unjust. If I ask for a payment plan, the same kind that they routinely set up for others, and they deny me one, then I can consider them to be unmerciful.

So, I see no contradiction in the biblical descriptions of the Christian God and the concept of hell. Practically speaking, if I were a god and I created everything I would establish rules and penalties and I would execute them in accordance with my word. If I didn't, then I could be accused of being capricious and unjust.

At any rate, as we call for people to treat us as individuals, to respect us, to not ridicule us, to not look upon us like we are four-headed monsters, to not trample on our rights to draw our own conclusions, we should do likewise.

**maxx** · April-12-11, 05:58 PM

You're concept of justice would fit right in with the religionists who would like to turn the U.S. into a theocracy under OT law. The founders of this country knew all about cruel punishments like drawing and quartering. Just because criminals are informed what the punishment is doesn't make that punishment just or rational. Maybe I should have said the concept of a never-ending fiery punishment is not rational, but it is also sadistic and unusually cruel. And I don't believe that any god would spend "his" days suffering over the people "he" consigned to hell, therefore at least "he" is unfeeling about the suffering of the people in hell. He is callous.

All such a belief does is make the believers unfeeling towards the suffering of others.

And OT YHWH acted capricrously all the time in the way he treated every other group except his "chosen" people. What creator would have favorites among all his creations? OT god acts like a petty dictator rather than a magnanimous all-powerful creator. Jesus's model of the creator as a loving father pervades most of the NT except for the verses in Mark where he talks about how it is better to cut off your arm than go to hell. The Bible god is inconsistent which is to be expected from a collection of tales and writings that span thousands of years.

**Locke09** · April-13-11, 04:51 PM

I actually understand some of your concern about my concept of justice. I agree that there can be cases where a prescribed punishment is "unfair" to our human sensibilities. Problem is, this will always be subjective because there will always be disagreement about what is right or fair. There is very little, if anything, that all mankind will ever agree upon. But even when someone, religious or not, believes that a punishment is fair, that does not preclude them from caring about the suffering of the one being punished. Any parent with a child in prison can probably tell you that.

The God of the OT was not capricious. Capricious means impulsive and unpredictable. The God of the OT was not impulsive or unpredictable. You might not like that the creator in the OT had favorites, but that creator had his own carefully scripted reasons for "picking favorites", and actually had a mechanism, even in the OT, for anyone to be considered a "favorite" who wanted to be a favorite. Again, you might not agree with the mechanism, but the OT God was not just some capricious hateful being. Furthermore, a thorough study of both the OT and NT reveals no difference in characteristics between the OT God and the NT God. The differences in the manner in which the Christian God deals with mankind in the bible shows a progression [[not the same as an inconsistency) that moves from judging people by their obedience to their own conscience or a direct verbal command [[since the Law had not been given), to judging them by a more objective standard [[the Law), to getting them to simply accept Grace. You might not like any of it, believe any of it or accept any of it, but it's not just a set of glaring inconsistencies. It's actually quite cohesive for a document written by multiple people across thousands of years.

Now, really, if there is a God, is it surprising that he would be a "dictator"? If he created the universe, shouldn't he have a right to dictate what happens in his universe? Shouldn't this creator have the expectation that the creation [[i.e. people) would acknowledge his sovereignty? Of course "petty" is another one of those subjective terms. BTW, the NT God is a "dictator" [[sovereign) too - no inconsistency there.

Anyway, I guess I'm just advocating that both atheists and religious people treat everyone with dignity and respect. If one group doesn't want gross misrepresentations spread about them, then they should consider that other groups want the same. If one group wants others to respect their rights, they should respect the rights of others. If one group wants others to stop "preaching" to them, they should stop finding every opportunity to "preach" as well. And then let everyone see what happens in the end, or not see as the case may be.

**belleislerunner** · April-14-11, 05:59 AM

How are the athiests putting down fundamentalists any less hypocritical than the fundentalist who put down athiests? We're all hypocrites. Both sides in a never ending battle for affirmation...

**maxx** · April-15-11, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by belleislerunner

How are the athiests putting down fundamentalists any less hypocritical than the fundentalist who put down athiests? We're all hypocrites. Both sides in a never ending battle for affirmation...

If I say there is no evidence for the supernatural, that is different than saying that I am immoral or my moral judgment is inferior for not believing in the supernatural.

This is interesting: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_847701.html

**maxx** · April-15-11, 01:54 PM

Locke09:

Fundamentalist interpretations of everyday events show a capricious god. Hurricane Katrina is supposedly just punishment on the "sinful" city of New Orleans while other equally "sinful" cities are unscathed. Likewise with individuals who die young or of a horrible disease. I hear people saying they were saved from a terrible disaster by their god while they ignore the fact that lots of other equally good people died in that same disaster.

The Bible is a hodge podge of stories and psalms;so there really is no way to show much consistency among them. The stories are best seen individually as metaphors rather than actual events masterminded by some god. It makes no sense to say that the entire world deserved to be flooded including the babies and animals, and it makes the OT god look irrational by our modern standards. Likewise the story of Sodom and Gomorrah has Lot offering his daughters to the "evil" men of Sodom and later having sex with his daughters because they were supposedly the only people left on earth.

The OT came out of an authoritarian, patriarchal, bronze age, tribal culture so OT god thinks like an authoritarian, bronze age tribal person. They were a brutal lot who took land by force and utterly destroyed their enemies when they could. Their lives were short and hard. They probably had a higher threshold for pain than most people today. But that doesn't mean that their punishments like stoning and eye gouging were not sadistic and cruel.

Hell was devised by who knows who as the worst possible punishment to deter people from "sinning". But as modern science tells us, capital punishment doesn't always deter people from criminal activity. One would expect an all- knowing god to be aware of that, but time after time OT god knows no more than the bronze age culture that devised him.

**maxx** · April-15-11, 02:05 PM

Locke09: if I were a god and I created everything I would establish rules and penalties and I would execute them in accordance with my word.

Of course, but why would an all-powerful god feel the need to torture people forever? The ancient Hebrews believed in a hell that had limits. People were "purified" there but eventually were released.
I don't know who started this perpetual torture hell. In the first century CE, Jesus upheld it. In fact why would a perfect being feel lonely and require the company of inferior creations as Genesis says? Like other ancient gods, OT god is all too human with a few super powers. The OT even refers to the god's feet and ears, very anthropomorphic.

At any rate, as we call for people to treat us as individuals, to respect us, to not ridicule us, to not look upon us like we are four-headed monsters, to not trample on our rights to draw our own conclusions, we should do likewise.

I call on believers to look objectively at their beliefs and try to shuck off the old superstitions. They should consider the danger of threatening people with eternal torture for questioning what their ministers preach and the illogic of a lot of what is preached. Believing something for which there is no evidence is no virtue. Neither is turning off your brain for the possible bribe of some eternal reward.