Midtown - too much, too little, or the right amount of attention?

[Huggybear]

On this quiet Friday morning, I will pose this question:

Should the public and nonprofit sectors pour tons of money into Midtown as they have been doing?

The pro argument is that it is an up-and-coming area that is centrally located and has multiple attractions and big businesses.

But the flip side of that argument is almost the same - that when an area [[at least as currently drawn) has virtually all of the major cultural institutions [[library, DIA, Historical Museum), huge employers [[State of Michigan, DMC, and Henry Ford), a university, TechTown, and an inbuilt student population, it should be able to stand on its own two feet - since that is all any particular area of Detroit [[or any other city) could ever really hope for in terms of localized stimuli. The implication would be that money and effort should be put into some of the other 95% of Detroit's square miles.

Thoughts?

[BrushStart]

If Midtown had light rail, I don't think it would need any more funding.

[JBMcB]

If you want a "walkable" city, you need to build things near each other so you can walk to them. Right now the walkable areas of Detroit are downtown, midtown, and new center, more or less. You keep dumping money into those areas and as they attract more and more development, that development spreads out. Ideally the entire Woodward corridor becomes something like Michigan Ave in Chicago, one long stretch of stuff to do.

[sirrealone]

I think making an area uber-strong is a great thing. For as long as I can remember, Detroit has tried various methods to get random areas of the city targeted for development, with no cohesiveness whatsoever. Almost every time, it's failed.

To me, if you have one area that thrives, grows, and becomes a vibrant centerpiece, it will attract businesses, people, and life to that area. If it continues to take off, eventually storefronts will fill, houses and apartments will fill, and demand will push out to the surrounding areas, causing natural growth that can then spread outward and into surrounding areas.

Every success story of other cities turnarounds seemed to start with one area that gathered steam and took off, spreading the good things to other areas. Never do I recall seeing how a city turned things around in eight areas all at once.

Let's stick with the model that works.

[Russix]

What does everyone think of making 2nd Ave between Grand River and Grand Blvd a 2-way street again? Then adding bike lanes, the 23 Hamilton inbound route, and possibly some shuttles to cut the Hamilton wait time in half[[bus every 15min instead of 30min)???

The New Center Council is already implementing this between Grand Blvd and Warren[[Fall 2011), does the Cass Corridor Neighborhood Development Corporation have any plans to match this?

[middetres]

I've always thought that Second should be made a two-way street for its entire length to McNichols. I don't think re-opening Second through the heart of Wayne State's campus is a viable option, so the NB lanes of Anthony Wayne Drive could serve as the two-way detour of Second. Third Street could then be turned into a Busway closed to all other motorized vehicles, complete with dedicated bike/running lanes. Especially once the light rail is built on Woodward, moving buses a few blocks east and west of Woodward would increase transit options. The same thing should be done on the east side of Woodward...return Brush or St. Antoine to a two-way street and make the other a Busway/Bikeway.

[Russix]

I've always thought that Second should be made a two-way street for its entire length to McNichols. I don't think re-opening Second through the heart of Wayne State's campus is a viable option, so the NB lanes of Anthony Wayne Drive could serve as the two-way detour of Second. Third Street could then be turned into a Busway closed to all other motorized vehicles, complete with dedicated bike/running lanes. Especially once the light rail is built on Woodward, moving buses a few blocks east and west of Woodward would increase transit options. The same thing should be done on the east side of Woodward...return Brush or St. Antoine to a two-way street and make the other a Busway/Bikeway.

Well the New Center council plan routes over to Anthony Wayne. I meant continuing this south of Warren on 2nd ave. I'm not really sure if dedicated Busway/Bikeways are worth the expense.

[casscorridor]

Heavy investment in Midtown is just what Detroit needs. The city will never turn around if we can't get Midtown thriving with residents and business. We need at least one neighborhood with 15,000+ pop density per sq mile, if not double that. We need at least one neighborhood that can offer the lifestyle that is offered in so many other cities-- a walkable urban lifestyle where everyday amenities are just footsteps away, where there is no reason to go the suburbs when everything is a short trip away and within the city. Where there is diversity of residents and places to call home. When most of metro Detroit is single family homes and strip malls, we need at least one area that offers something different, a scene you would expect to see in NYC or Chi or Philly or SF. We need at least one neighborhood that resembles a "big city," a title Detroit can no longer claim.

If we can get one area, Midtown, looking like a big city we might have a fighting chance of restoring life to the rest of Detroit's disfunctional neighborhoods. It can be a beacon of light to suburbanities and city dwellers alike that Detroit can come back, and better than ever.

[Richard]

On this quiet Friday morning, I will pose this question:

Should the public and nonprofit sectors pour tons of money into Midtown as they have been doing?

The pro argument is that it is an up-and-coming area that is centrally located and has multiple attractions and big businesses.

But the flip side of that argument is almost the same - that when an area [[at least as currently drawn) has virtually all of the major cultural institutions [[library, DIA, Historical Museum), huge employers [[State of Michigan, DMC, and Henry Ford), a university, TechTown, and an inbuilt student population, it should be able to stand on its own two feet - since that is all any particular area of Detroit [[or any other city) could ever really hope for in terms of localized stimuli. The implication would be that money and effort should be put into some of the other 95% of Detroit's square miles.

Thoughts?

It is being done with private money CBD is one aspect ,Woodward is another those funding these sections are stretched at the moment and feel others can continue on the other sections ,which there are plans for just going forward a bit more slowly. The currant elimination of the credits aspect have created a few setbacks and most likely will slow things down a bit more.

Private meaning others taking the steps to move forward and circumvent things or persons in place that choose to keep things as they are for their personal gain verses the city as a whole. Make sense ?

[English]

One great step would be to bring back the Detroit Festival of the Arts. I love the Dally, but Midtown needs a major festival.

[Detroitnerd]

I think the main difference is that, with these efforts in the mid-city area, we are talking about subsidizing families, individuals, and supporting a dense area with lots of small, independent businesses using existing buildings.

The classic blunder in Detroit has been to cater only to big players, especially downtown. No scheme is too outsized. No campus is too gated or closed. Pesky old building in the way? We'll knock it down! Old streets mean the lot's too small? We'll tear it out, or let you build right over it! We want bigger, newer, closed-off developments all connected by a series of tubeways so that nobody need walk on the street. So you end up with stuff like the RenCen, the Millinder, Cobo, Ford Field, Comerica Park: Places where you go in, and you don't need to leave for anything, vertically integrated, as shut off from their surroundings as an arcology or an airport. And the downtown itself cut off from surrounding neighborhoods by a moat of concrete. What has this done for downtown? Has it added much to street life? Probably the best thing they've added is Campus Martius Park, which is an actual public space where you can hang out right downtown. The rest? Obscene late-20th century crapola, designed for Jetsons.

In contrast, what's being done in the mid-city area is a lot more interesting. I get the sense that Detroit's leaders are only beginning to understand it. In the coming years, the real challenge will be taming Wayne State University, a classic big Detroit player that wants to build big buildings where we're starting to see a bit of density and diversity and an appreciation of the human scale of the early 20th century infrastructure and architecture.

[Richard]

The CBC is on the right track in away with implementing the residential mix into the formula ,the biggest problem other city districts have is catering only to the commercial aspect leaving no room for the residential, supply the residential and they will create the commercial demand on a much stronger foundation.

IMHO the senseless demolition of past structures did remove a sense of pride in ones city not to even mention the tourist aspect dollar for dollar you cannot replace that history.

[Hamtragedy]

The slow, slow process of filling in those toothless gaps on Woodward btw the Fisher and campus has shown results over the last 15 years. The Orchestra Hall and Center for Performing Arts have helped. But once you get south of Alexandrine, the neighborhood has gone nowhere [[the real estate bust killed what little speculation existed). While the rest of Midtown has seen advances, the usual Cass Corridor still resembles the rest of Detroit.

This is not to shortchange antything that has happened in midtown. Sure, the Lowell's investment in the area has stabilized those buildings and areas that were relatively stable in the 80's and early 90's. And CCS' commitment to the New Center has helped to stabilze the New Center, post GM. The key word here though is stabilize. The abandonment that took place of the Cass Corridor and divestment of New Center in the 90's and 2000's is still with us. I would hardly call the intersection of Woodward and the Blvd a destination, even during work hours. The area along Second and Third south of the Blvd. is invisible to anyone driving down Woodward, but I won't deny that progress has been sustained, if not made.

The more I think about it, the more it seems like, once again, the focus on a concentrated area, similarly to downtown, has lead to limited results. In fact, the angrier I get, because, much like downtown de-investment, the efforts to stabilize these areas has resulted in barely that. In the mean time, the neighborhoods left to fend for themselves have lost the battle. Those remaining neighborhoods are still fighting for even a crumb of the downtown, midtown focus, and crumbling in the process.

[j to the jeremy]

I think the main difference is that, with these efforts in the mid-city area, we are talking about subsidizing families, individuals, and supporting a dense area with lots of small, independent businesses using existing buildings.

The classic blunder in Detroit has been to cater only to big players, especially downtown. No scheme is too outsized. No campus is too gated or closed. Pesky old building in the way? We'll knock it down! Old streets mean the lot's too small? We'll tear it out, or let you build right over it! We want bigger, newer, closed-off developments all connected by a series of tubeways so that nobody need walk on the street. So you end up with stuff like the RenCen, the Millinder, Cobo, Ford Field, Comerica Park: Places where you go in, and you don't need to leave for anything, vertically integrated, as shut off from their surroundings as an arcology or an airport. And the downtown itself cut off from surrounding neighborhoods by a moat of concrete. What has this done for downtown? Has it added much to street life? Probably the best thing they've added is Campus Martius Park, which is an actual public space where you can hang out right downtown. The rest? Obscene late-20th century crapola, designed for Jetsons.

In contrast, what's being done in the mid-city area is a lot more interesting. I get the sense that Detroit's leaders are only beginning to understand it. In the coming years, the real challenge will be taming Wayne State University, a classic big Detroit player that wants to build big buildings where we're starting to see a bit of density and diversity and an appreciation of the human scale of the early 20th century infrastructure and architecture.

Couldn't agree more.WSU and the hospitals are going to be trying their damndest to make their own super-campus in the next 10 years. If they spent as much money on advising students as they did trying to figure out what streetwalls to demolish for parking and greenspace, it would solve some problems.

I also agree with Hamtragedy that the neighborhoods are not getting sufficient help. There are so many cops downtown that I can't help but believe half of them could be patrolling areas that need that extra safety right now. The infrastructure in neighborhoods is crumbling fast. No one is watching, and Bing isn't even talking to city council, apparently.

Still, I think focusing most of the development and "buzz" on a hot area is inevitable, it happens in every city sometimes.

[drjeff]

The slow, slow process of filling in those toothless gaps on Woodward btw the Fisher and campus has shown results over the last 15 years. The Orchestra Hall and Center for Performing Arts have helped. But once you get south of Alexandrine, the neighborhood has gone nowhere [[the real estate bust killed what little speculation existed). While the rest of Midtown has seen advances, the usual Cass Corridor still resembles the rest of Detroit.

This is not to shortchange antything that has happened in midtown. Sure, the Lowell's investment in the area has stabilized those buildings and areas that were relatively stable in the 80's and early 90's. And CCS' commitment to the New Center has helped to stabilze the New Center, post GM. The key word here though is stabilize. The abandonment that took place of the Cass Corridor and divestment of New Center in the 90's and 2000's is still with us. I would hardly call the intersection of Woodward and the Blvd a destination, even during work hours. The area along Second and Third south of the Blvd. is invisible to anyone driving down Woodward, but I won't deny that progress has been sustained, if not made.

The more I think about it, the more it seems like, once again, the focus on a concentrated area, similarly to downtown, has lead to limited results. In fact, the angrier I get, because, much like downtown de-investment, the efforts to stabilize these areas has resulted in barely that. In the mean time, the neighborhoods left to fend for themselves have lost the battle. Those remaining neighborhoods are still fighting for even a crumb of the downtown, midtown focus, and crumbling in the process.

But midtown doesn't need as much to get where it should be, and good things can spread from there. Do you advocate spending money on someplace like Brightmoor? What the hell would you even do there? I'm not being snarky, I just really have no idea how you help a neighborhood that is so far gone nobody in their right mind would live there by choice.

[Augustiner]

But midtown doesn't need as much to get where it should be, and good things can spread from there. Do you advocate spending money on someplace like Brightmoor? What the hell would you even do there? I'm not being snarky, I just really have no idea how you help a neighborhood that is so far gone nobody in their right mind would live there by choice.

I'm thinking more of someplace like Rosedale Park. It's a great neighborhood with a lot of things going for it, and I think it would be a lot more cost-effective to invest in keeping it stable now than to try to resurrect it in five or ten years when it could potentially have a much more serious blight problem.

[hhockey]

If we continue to ignore once grand neighborhoods and leave them to deteriorate further we wont need to worry about
Detroit. Areas such as Grand River and Greenfield, Grand River and Oakman are a few places to start with trying to improve. Without neighborhoods and the taxes they bring in a midtown wont have much going for it.

[Richard]

This is a prime example of why things are as they are,the systematic rape and pillage.

http://www.freep.com/article/2011032...ed-bilking-HUD

[Detroitnerd]

This is a prime example of why things are as they are,the systematic rape and pillage.

http://www.freep.com/article/2011032...ed-bilking-HUD

Deserves a separate thread, but I have walked by those windows on Lafayette and wondered, "Jesus, that looks like a scheme of some kind." Half-finished construction, and the worst possible site for a "theater." If I remember right, the sign announcing the development also said "Mayor: Kwame Kilpatrick."

[Hamtragedy]

"But midtown doesn't need as much to get where it should be, and good things can spread from there. Do you advocate spending money on someplace like Brightmoor? What the hell would you even do there? I'm not being snarky, I just really have no idea how you help a neighborhood that is so far gone nobody in their right mind would live there by choice."

Rosedale Park and University District are already there, but receiving very little in terms of assistance. Grandmont is already there, but, man, things are starting to get shaky. Same with Grandmont 1, East English Village, Copper Canyon. Boston Edison is really starting to head the same direction of Brush Park, if things are not dealt with quickly. There are tons of other small neighborhoods in this city [[7 Mile / Van Dyke, Curtis/Cherrylawn, most places along Outer Drive E & W in much the same condition, where if attention isn't focused, the downward spiral is devastating.

As for Blightmore, or John R and McNichols, or Davison and Conant, stop wasting money and time.

As for Midtown, taking care of the residential areas north of Myrtle, [[MLK to the rest of you) and south of Willis/Alexandrine all the way to the Lodge will convince me that the attention and focus given that area is worthwhile. By the way, Woodbridge could sure as hell use some streetlights over there. Hell, Cockrel's block is pitch black when the sun goes down.

[mwilbert]

Whatever the details, the basic idea of concentrating attention and resources on limited areas of the city is clearly essential. This is a big part of what Detroit Works or whatever it ends up being has to address.

[rhythmc]

The amount of attention given to mid-town is not too much or too little. Having one neighborhood as a start is not a bad thing. At some point, the only directions that further development will have will be upward or outward. I look at places like Dupont Circle in DC and Lincoln Park in Chicago as the way that Detroit can grow out of mid-town. It just takes time.

[canuck]

The amount of attention given to mid-town is not too much or too little. Having one neighborhood as a start is not a bad thing. At some point, the only directions that further development will have will be upward or outward. I look at places like Dupont Circle in DC and Lincoln Park in Chicago as the way that Detroit can grow out of mid-town. It just takes time.

Never too much attention, unless piles of useless money are thrown at repeating the same mistakes. As Brushstart says; If Midtown had light rail, I don't think it would need any more funding.
In one sense that is a very real recipe for cohesiveness in terms of linking the greater community to a designated area where people congregate at a higher average. When Detroit had a highly diversified industrial base of procurement to the car factories and a lively commercial street frontage, the transit aspect was undermined by the increasing use of the car. But it is once again practical to think of linking communities with smart transit solutions, big and small. There is so much right of way available in Detroit with wide avenues and a radial street grid it is hard to lose the future gamble on streetcar and rail. By all means strong well-built and tended neihborhoods must be protected, enhanced; but the linkage will improve things dramatically.

[Fnemecek]

Heavy investment in Midtown is just what Detroit needs. The city will never turn around if we can't get Midtown thriving with residents and business. We need at least one neighborhood with 15,000+ pop density per sq mile, if not double that.

15,000+ per square mile?

Damn, we've got a long ways to go then.

[Fnemecek]

Whatever the details, the basic idea of concentrating attention and resources on limited areas of the city is clearly essential. This is a big part of what Detroit Works or whatever it ends up being has to address.

There's a balancing act to that, though. We still expect people outside of the target area to pay taxes at roughly double national averages. If we're going to expect them to continue to pay that much, we have to give them at least a basic level of services. Without it, those individuals leave the city, taking their tax revenue with them.

Without that tax revenue, it quickly becomes impossible to maintain funding in the target area.