Religious right, and the grave consequenses....

**Whitehouse** · March-08-11, 05:45 PM

Seeing that all the "shit for brains" threads have been deleted [[I guess) let's focus on the Religious right. Here in the Netherlands we've more and more turned into a secular nation. the church is far less a power like in America. The American religious right is a mirror image of the Taliban; they have the same urge to bring society back to the stone age.

Rallying against same sex marriage, abortion, euthanasia, all things they consider against the teachings of the Bible, and I might add also the Quran, but they fail to realize that...

Here's a very sad consequence from their war against Abortion. This made my eyes water.

Nebraska’s new abortion law forced Danielle Deaver to live through ten excruciating days, waiting to give birth to a baby that she and her doctors knew would die minutes later, fighting for breath that would not come.
And that’s what happened. The one-pound, ten-ounce girl, Elizabeth, was born December 8th. Deaver and husband Robb watched, held and comforted the baby as it gasped for air, hoping she was not suffering. She died 15 minutes later.
The sponsor of the controversial Nebraska statute, Sen. Mike Flood of Norfolk, told the Des Moines Register that the law worked as it was intended in the Deavers’ case.
“Even in these situations where the baby has a terminal condition or there’s not much chance of surviving outside of the womb, my point has been and remains that is still a life,” Flood said in an interview with the Iowa newspaper.
The law, the only one of its kind in America, prohibits abortions after the 20th week. It is based on the disputed argument that a fetus may feel pain at that stage. It took effect last October.
“Our hands were tied,” Danielle Deaver of Grand Island told The Register in a story published Sunday. “The outcome of my pregnancy, that choice was made by God. I feel like how to handle the end of my pregnancy, that choice should have been mine, and it wasn’t because of a law.”

And again, we see the fanatic’s absolute lack of empathy for the woman who was forced to bear a doomed child, and watch it die in agony.

Julie Schmit-Albin, who heads Nebraska Right to Life, told the AP in a Sunday interview that the tragic outcome was better than an abortion:
“We acknowledge the tragedy that occurs with a poor prenatal diagnosis for the baby. But isn’t it more humane for the baby to die in a loving manner with comfort care and in the arms of her parents than by the intentional painful death through abortion?”

Jesus wept...

Coincidentally yesterday Dutch scientist revealed a new method to see if a baby was suffering from a birth defect very early on. Previous methods meant that a puncture had to be made to find out if a child was having difficulties. And those methods sometimes lead to terminated pregnancies.
With the new method you can tell with a 100% certainty if a child is having Down syndrome. There is certainty on the condition of the child and a decision to terminate the pregnancy can be made between doctors and parents to be. Abortion is legal over here. It's even covered in insurance.
Over here you can decide yourself if you think your child is worth it living a life in agony and dependency. Bringing a child in need can be a very demanding task. Mind you, the decision to end a pregnancy is still not easy but at least you don't have to make the child suffer once it's born.

Via Littlegreenfootballs.

littlebuddy · March-08-11, 06:49 PM

Find some extreme example to justify the killing of babies. 99% of abortions are not because someone was raped or incest, but "I want to screw, but I don't want to deal with the consequences" Yea, I don't have any money, I'm not ready to be a mom, it gets in the way of my life. The right-wing religious nuts are asking alot. Grow up

**oladub** · March-08-11, 08:13 PM

Whitehouse: "let's focus on the Religious right. Here in the Netherlands we've more and more turned into a secular nation. the church is far less a power like in America. The American religious right is a mirror image of the Taliban; they have the same urge to bring society back to the stone age."

It's my perception that the Netherlands has peaked as a secular nation. Perhaps more Catholics will fall away from their religion and become secular but the turning point of Dutch secularism is the rapid growth of it's youthful Muslim minority; now up to 6%, and and 13% in Amsterdam. As the native population ages and fails to sustain it's own numbers, there is a demographic shift to a more religious replacement population who may not be as tolerant of abortion; at least for their own growing population.

**Mikeg** · March-08-11, 09:02 PM

Originally Posted by oladub

It's my perception that the Netherlands has peaked as a secular nation. Perhaps more Catholics will fall away from their religion and become secular but the turning point of Dutch secularism is the rapid growth of it's youthful Muslim minority; now up to 6%, and and 13% in Amsterdam. As the native population ages and fails to sustain it's own numbers, there is a demographic shift to a more religious replacement population who may not be as tolerant of abortion; at least for their own growing population.

The Netherlands' embrace of secularity has resulted in a fertility rate among the Dutch people that is well below replacement rate. It's a fact that except for war-ravaged Bosnia, the five nations on the European Continent with the highest proportion of Muslim citizens also have the highest fertility rate: Abania, Macedonia, France, Netherlands and Denmark. The Netherlands' fertility rate of 1.72 is significantly higher than the EU average of 1.38 and neighboring Germany's 1.35 [[2005 data).

Give it another 50 years and the only place where Dutch culture can be found will be in and around Holland, MI, which was founded by Dutch Calvinist emigrants who were seeking religious autonomy and which is still populated by folks with strong religious convictions [[aka "Religious Right).

**Zacha341** · March-09-11, 01:25 PM

Tragic examples are available that present an argument for abortion. However, the elephant in the room is how the abortion industry itself has issues from within -- aside from the standard rubric of talking points ala the debate of 'choice' and 'women's health'... Too often there's reflexive resistance to objectively evaluate the down-sides of abortion because the criticism is summed up as solely OWNED the right wing.

It isn't.

Talk to the workers in that industry, especially those who've spent considerable time there. Very revealing. Especially those who are no longer engaged in providing abortion services. They present a view of abortion often overlooked... A view not exclusive property of the conservative right wing or so-called religious zealots.

Ex-abortion workers present with many reasons why over time they changed their perspective [[regardless to political party) regarding abortion as practiced per their 'front-line' experiences.

Reports talk of ex-workers who have themselves suffered emotional distress over time. They see the abuse. They see EVERYTHING... sanitized and hidden from the mainline discussions.

For one, abortion is very often used as birth control and workers at clinics who initially present with 'noble' optimism of serving women in the interest of 'choice' change their views. They often become weary of witnessing abortion applied in forms far beyond the cases of rape, incest, or diagnosed morbidity of the fetus, life or the mother etc. Interesting information:

Ex-Abortion Workers: Why They Quit:
http://www.meehanreports.com/whytheyquit.html

Abortion Hurts Those in the Abortion Industry, Too:
http://www.theinterim.com/issues/abo...f-the-tragedy/

General Google search re. those who provide abortion services [[1,740,000 results):
http://www.google.com/search?q=ex+ab...ient=firefox-a

Originally Posted by Whitehouse

Nebraska’s new abortion law forced Danielle Deaver to live through ten excruciating days, waiting to give birth to a baby that she and her doctors knew would die minutes later, fighting for breath that would not come.

And that’s what happened. The one-pound, ten-ounce girl, Elizabeth, was born December 8th. Deaver and husband Robb watched, held and comforted the baby as it gasped for air, hoping she was not suffering. She died 15 minutes later.

Jesus wept...

...Coincidentally yesterday Dutch scientist revealed a new method to see if a baby was suffering from a birth defect very early on. Previous methods meant that a puncture had to be made to find out if a child was having difficulties. And those methods sometimes lead to terminated pregnancies.
With the new method you can tell with a 100% certainty if a child is having Down syndrome. There is certainty on the condition of the child and a decision to terminate the pregnancy can be made between doctors and parents to be. Abortion is legal over here. It's even covered in insurance.
Over here you can decide yourself if you think your child is worth it living a life in agony and dependency. Bringing a child in need can be a very demanding task. Mind you, the decision to end a pregnancy is still not easy but at least you don't have to make the child suffer once it's born.

Via Littlegreenfootballs.

**maxx** · March-09-11, 05:16 PM

Don't argue against abortion until this society is ready to put its money where its mouth is. Irony of ironies, the churches aren't prepared to deal with all the poverty their anti-abortion stance creates.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_826773.html

**oladub** · March-09-11, 07:21 PM

Facts on Induced Abortion in the United States A compilation of statistics regarding US abortions as compiled by the Guttmacher institute.

**maxx** · March-10-11, 02:51 PM

But then a lot of churches preach the virtues of poverty and the happiness that eludes all those rich people. Just like a lot of TV shows.

**Mikeg** · March-22-11, 06:45 AM

Originally Posted by Whitehouse

.......let's focus on the Religious right. Here in the Netherlands we've more and more turned into a secular nation....

Are you sure about that? Maybe we need to help you by putting some focus on Religious intolerance in the Netherlands
______________

"There are none so blind as those who will not see." John Heywood, 1546.

**Big Dog** · March-22-11, 08:23 AM

Don't want to have an abortion? Then don't. Want to have one? Go ahead, have one. It's between the pregnant one and God. Unless she repents, she will have to accept, God's decision.

**Pam** · March-22-11, 09:10 AM

It's between the pregnant one and God

A doctor and the father of the child might be involved before God.

**ghettopalmetto** · March-22-11, 09:14 AM

1 'Do not judge, and you will not be judged;
2 because the judgements you give are the judgements you will get, and the standard you use will be the standard used for you.
3 Why do you observe the splinter in your brother's eye and never notice the great log in your own?
4 And how dare you say to your brother, "Let me take that splinter out of your eye," when, look, there is a great log in your own?
5 Hypocrite! Take the log out of your own eye first, and then you will see clearly enough to take the splinter out of your brother's eye.
6 'Do not give dogs what is holy; and do not throw your pearls in front of pigs, or they may trample them and then turn on you and tear you to pieces.
7 'Ask, and it will be given to you; search, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened to you.
8 Everyone who asks receives; everyone who searches finds; everyone who knocks will have the door opened.
9 Is there anyone among you who would hand his son a stone when he asked for bread?
10 Or would hand him a snake when he asked for a fish?
11 If you, then, evil as you are, know how to give your children what is good, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask him!
12 'So always treat others as you would like them to treat you; that is the Law and the Prophets.

Matthew, Ch. 7

Eh, on second thought, fuck that. It's far easier to tell other people what to do and how to live in accordance with our own personal choices. If we pepper our speech with "Jesus", we can claim the moral high ground.

A true person of Faith doesn't need to force his personal beliefs on anyone else through legislation.

littlebuddy · March-22-11, 11:45 AM

"A true person of Faith doesn't need to force his personal beliefs on anyone else through legislation"

All of us "force" our personal beliefs on others, it is called obeying the law. It is against my personal belief to rape,murder,steal,etc and I vote for those who will make laws against those things.

**ghettopalmetto** · March-22-11, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by littlebuddy

"A true person of Faith doesn't need to force his personal beliefs on anyone else through legislation"

All of us "force" our personal beliefs on others, it is called obeying the law. It is against my personal belief to rape,murder,steal,etc and I vote for those who will make laws against those things.

And you also vote for people who cut assistance to the poor while approving tax breaks for the wealthy.

**Big Dog** · March-22-11, 01:53 PM

Yes, the father has a say, but one must suffer the consequence of one's decision, regardless of the choice. I'm not for killing babies, or anyone else.

**terryh** · March-31-11, 07:40 PM

Animosity toward religion exists for a reason! Thank you very much for the post Whitehouse. I think I would be correct in writing that in countries with high rates of atheism have lower divorce rates; longer life expectencies; lower suicide and depression rates; less crime and violence etc......come on, who is more likely to discriminate against an unmarried or gay couple? A secular or devoutly religious landlord? Religion teaches that my son and nephews and nieces [[my parents married before a justice of the peace...I was born after a civil marriage) are 'illegitimate'...the only bastards are the prophets and 'messiahs' of organized religion...

Mikeg shares some alarming figures...I too am trouble by muslim immigration in Europe...Im sure many of us of European heritage would someday like to visit the homelands of our forefathers without encountering sinister, bearded and brooding menacing muslims on every other street corner.....