Unwelcome Neighbors

Buy American · February-28-11, 10:19 AM

http://www.macombdaily.com/articles/...5206944482.txt

Is there going to be "black flight" from Southfield and other suburbs?

**English** · February-28-11, 10:43 AM

Upper middle and "solidly" middle class black flight has been occurring for the past 10-15 years. My grandma's goddaughter got out of Southfield back in the early 1990s and moved to Novi. She was in business and her hubby was a CPA. Their kids were among the only black students at Novi HS.

Today on the West Side, the 'burb of choice seems to be Farmington Hills. However, you don't just have the middle class fleeing there and to other 'burbs. You have more "Detroit refugees" who, tired of the crime and violence and wanting better schools, are flooding into apartments in places like Wixom, Walled Lake, and Troy. One can only expect this trend to continue.

**Danny** · February-28-11, 10:49 AM

Now the trend continues. In Detroit back in the 1930s to the 1980s blacks whether they are middle class or low-income or poor were following the organized Jewish communities from Black Bottom to Paradise Valley to NW Detroit areas. When the Jews moved ot Oak Park, Blacks followed. When the Jews migrated to Southfield and Lathrup Village areas, black followed. Now the Jews are all over from Commence TWP. to West Bloomfield TWP. area and blacks still following them.

The urban result, a fast growing black communities of Oak Park, Southfield and Lathrup Village.

Pontiac and Royal Oak TWP. Remains as historically founded black communities since the 1840s Via the Underground Railroad stations.

That article from the Macomd Daily is right [[ I don't have to agree with its baised reports). Southfield's middle class black population is slowly dropping and more low-income blacks are moving in. My biggest question is will those low-income blacks lower Southfield nieghborhood's property values? Surely it happen in mostly middle class Detroit neighborhoods. L.B. Patterson may not like what Southfield residents are doing to their neighborhood and he might take action. After all he is the " So Called" MAYOR OF WHITE DETROIT!" Southfield officials will keep lay down the property laws to prevent suburban blight. The low-income folks will handle its requirements. I can't wait to see happen to Southfield in 30 years. It could look like Highland Park in 20 years.

WORD FROM THE STREET PROPHET

While people moving in people moviong out. Simply just because by the color of the skin.

Neda, I miss you so.

**rjk** · February-28-11, 10:59 AM

"You have a choice of whether you are willing to be around your people or go 180 degrees in the other direction," she says. "To the higher income black people, if you don't want to love and help your lower-income black brethren, why would you expect white people to? If you can't do it, no one in society can do it. You can try to flee or you can be part of the solution."

I love it when someone like this college teacher, who more than likely hasn't been to the area in question is critical of someone who decides to move.

How exactly are they going to help their lower-income black brethren? Go over to their neighbor and tell them that they need to take better care of their house? Maybe tell them to bring their kids in the house when the streetlights go on?

**SWMAP** · February-28-11, 11:04 AM

Finally - someone talking about the ghetto culture and the all-night life-style and careless noise. It's painful for people who have to get up in the morning but until now it hasn't been PC to mention. All differences were just supposed to be "differences" - never something unbearable and cause to move away.

Decent Black homeowner on my street but grandchildren's noise and screaming laughter all night, loud car radio all night and resident grandson recently sent to prison for armed robbery make me miserable and fearful. Overflowing garbage and caved-in garage drawing vermin are other problems. But not poor - just careless. grandma a Wayne County retiree who goes to church in her long fur coat from Dittrich

DetroitPole · February-28-11, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by Buy American

http://www.macombdaily.com/articles/...5206944482.txt

Is there going to be "black flight" from Southfield and other suburbs?

I don't have an answer for this. The tonier neigborhoods of Detroit are struggling with this as well. People paid hundreds of thousands of dollars for their houses in the usual list of nice neighborhoods and now...drop a zero off and you get somebody from the 'hood moving in next door. Up go the bedsheets in the windows, junk on the front porch, sidewalks don't get shoveled, and things like gutters fall off the house and don't get put back up for God only knows why, and this is in addition to the increased noise level. These are all specific things that have happened in my neighborhood.

The aggressive code enforcement seems to be somewhat effective.

I think they touched on it in the article: even the 'hood folks are fleeing Detroit because, no matter how rough around the edges you may be, you don't want to live with gunfire and a failed school system. One sure-fire solution is to fix Detroit. Give people less reason to leave. Fix the problem, not the person.

The ungentrified low income neighborhoods where people are rowdier should still be at least reasonably safe and functioning. Hey, not everyone was cut out to be a Grosse Pointer.

Sorry, I'm all for somebody seeking a better life but it isn't my business to make my next-door neighbor get their act together. And I'm sure they don't want me to make it mine either. Rather they just never moved in at all.

**R8RBOB** · February-28-11, 11:22 AM

This was one of the best stories that I have read in a long time. We have snotty Black folk not wanting to live next to their cousins....LOL [[excuse me while I laugh some more)

Okay, I can understand. I don't want to be near ghetto folks either but these brainwashed Black folk have been told for decades that the suburbs were "safe" and thanks to the destabilizing real estate market in SE Michigan the suburbs is opened for the first time for everyone and the ghetto folk are hopping across 8Mile because again the suburbs were sold as being better than Detroit.

**English** · February-28-11, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by SWMAP

Finally - someone talking about the ghetto culture and the all-night life-style and careless noise. It's painful for people who have to get up in the morning but until now it hasn't been PC to mention. All differences were just supposed to be "differences" - never something unbearable and cause to move away.

Decent Black homeowner on my street but grandchildren's noise and screaming laughter all night, loud car radio all night and resident grandson recently sent to prison for armed robbery make me miserable and fearful. Overflowing garbage and caved-in garage drawing vermin are other problems. But not poor - just careless. grandma a Wayne County retiree who goes to church in her long fur coat from Dittrich

Yep... totally agree. Ghetto isn't about indicting an entire race of people. It's about not wanting to live next door to people who are loud and don't care for their property. I don't care about the race of my neighbors. I care if they have parties until 3 am on a school night.

**English** · February-28-11, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by rjk

I love it when someone like this college teacher, who more than likely hasn't been to the area in question is critical of someone who decides to move.

How exactly are they going to help their lower-income black brethren? Go over to their neighbor and tell them that they need to take better care of their house? Maybe tell them to bring their kids in the house when the streetlights go on?

Thank you!!!! I'm so glad that someone has penetrated this indictment of the black upper and middle classes. Not only do we have to work our you-know-whats off, we are OBLIGATED to help uplift the underclass, too. Never mind that many of us retain our membership in mixed-income, inner city churches. Never mind that many of us have poorer and ne'er-do-well relatives on our dime -- you HATE to support them, but you don't want to see relatives who are minor children on the street.

Then, when I choose volunteer organizations, and I choose those that don't have anything to do with my work [[that is, no children or teens) I am somehow contributing to the problem. Used to care about being labeled, but now, I couldn't care less. I am trying to survive in this world, and I cannot survive by saving all of black America. I help those in my sphere to the degree that I can but so often YOUR LIFESTYLE IS A CHOICE. There are so many people whose parents are middle class or working class with decent values, and their children intentionally chose a lazy, trifling lifestyle. There are also poor people with dignity in the city -- they shouldn't be forced to live around others who don't give a d*mn.

I love some of my relatives, but they CANNOT live with me. Others can't even visit.

[[These are the kinds of conversations that the black middle class has among ourselves when others aren't around. In mixed company, we will defend our idiot relatives to the very end. I hope that stops. We need to get rid of all incentives to be "ghetto." Many of us have worked our rear ends off to get half as far as those from other groups -- we don't need this extra stress and burden.)

**sirrealone** · February-28-11, 12:00 PM

The part that never makes sense to me is why people don't have more pride in their homes. Whether you get a home for $15,000 or $150,000, what difference does that make in whether you keep your yard mowed and free of dandelions, you keep your snow shoveled, and you keep your kids inside at 3am? If you move in and the homes around you all adhere to those standards [[which aren't anything new), then where is the breakdown in applying those same fundamental principles to your own home?

It's your home. It's the first and only thing that many see that represents you. It's where you spend the majority of your time. It's what keeps your family safe and sheltered. If you can't take pride in your home, how do you expect anybody to believe that you take pride in anything about your life?

**Pickford-Bentler** · February-28-11, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by English

Yep... totally agree. Ghetto isn't about indicting an entire race of people. It's about not wanting to live next door to people who are loud and don't care for their property. I don't care about the race of my neighbors. I care if they have parties until 3 am on a school night.

Race had nothing to do with being a member of the knucklehead academy when I lived on Pickford. I questimate that at least 60% of the homes destroyed on Pickford between Trinity and Bentler were due to the negligence of whites. During the summer of 1984, the Beavis and Butthead wannabes that lived on the corner gleefully took and hammer and chisel to take out the curb. Our local white ex-Jackson thug used to steal cars, joyride them and leave the torched hulks on the street. He actually got murdered by dealers moving into the hood. I can't say I was sorry to see him go.

My point is how can anyone blame a person trying to get way from that?

Of course, the person getting away should show their new neighbors the respect they deserve.

The ironic thing is that I used to go to the Southfield High track to get my four miles in because these low lifes in my hood liked to throw things at joggers. A metal foil ball with nails in it hurts when it hits you. The black folk that used to be on the track with me struck me as very well mannered and soft spoken, so this white man does not indict any race for anything.

**Kevgoblue** · February-28-11, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by sirrealone

The part that never makes sense to me is why people don't have more pride in their homes. Whether you get a home for $15,000 or $150,000, what difference does that make in whether you keep your yard mowed and free of dandelions, you keep your snow shoveled, and you keep your kids inside at 3am? If you move in and the homes around you all adhere to those standards [[which aren't anything new), then where is the breakdown in applying those same fundamental principles to your own home?

Exactly. Especially when they're saying that they left Detroit in hopes of living in a better, safer neighborhood with a better school district. If that is the case, then why bring all the B.S. that you claim to be running from with you?

**ddaydetroit** · February-28-11, 12:53 PM

School of choice is also a big factor in all this. When you buy a house you look at what kind of kids are in the neighborhood and what kind of kids your kids are going to hanging with in and out of school. you pay extra to live in a neighborhood without gangs with hard working families and school of choice in many cases has taking that factor right out of it.
Many people are moving farther out to the burbs to get away from the effects of school of choice you may not live in the ghetto but school of choice may bring it to your school

**Blueidone** · February-28-11, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by sirrealone

The part that never makes sense to me is why people don't have more pride in their homes. Whether you get a home for $15,000 or $150,000, what difference does that make in whether you keep your yard mowed and free of dandelions, you keep your snow shoveled, and you keep your kids inside at 3am? If you move in and the homes around you all adhere to those standards [[which aren't anything new), then where is the breakdown in applying those same fundamental principles to your own home?

It's your home. It's the first and only thing that many see that represents you. It's where you spend the majority of your time. It's what keeps your family safe and sheltered. If you can't take pride in your home, how do you expect anybody to believe that you take pride in anything about your life?

To me, it's simply a lack of respect for anything...up to and including human life, for some people. And in order to have respect for others, you need to have respect for yourself. These seems to be lacking in a lot of our society..not just blacks. The adults are not teaching their children from an early age about respect, empathy or compassion for others.

I don't know if it's a lack of religion in their lives, a lack of quality parenting time, a lack of caring, or a sense of hopelessness or helplessness, or a combination of these things. But it's much more deep-seated than simply a black/white thing. It crosses all racial lines, and all income levels. I have seen so-called "rich white" kids be just as disrespectful as they black kids...sometimes even worse, because they feel they are "entitled".

As my mother [[God rest her soul) used to say..."Things are going to hell in a hand-basket!" And that was many years ago. Sure wish I had the answer!

**p1acebo** · February-28-11, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by Blueidone

To me, it's simply a lack of respect for anything...up to and including human life, for some people. And in order to have respect for others, you need to have respect for yourself. These seems to be lacking in a lot of our society..not just blacks. The adults are not teaching their children from an early age about respect, empathy or compassion for others.

I don't know if it's a lack of religion in their lives, a lack of quality parenting time, a lack of caring, or a sense of hopelessness or helplessness, or a combination of these things. But it's much more deep-seated than simply a black/white thing. It crosses all racial lines, and all income levels. I have seen so-called "rich white" kids be just as disrespectful as they black kids...sometimes even worse, because they feel they are "entitled".

As my mother [[God rest her soul) used to say..."Things are going to hell in a hand-basket!" And that was many years ago. Sure wish I had the answer!

I doubt it is lack of religion... more like lack of structure.

**DetroitPlanner** · February-28-11, 01:39 PM

Putting on my hat from my grad school course in Urban Anthropology, what you see here is a result of the growth of the culture of poverty. This really has little to do with race. You can go into much of Northern Michigan [[which is probably about 95 percent white) and see the same things going on.

As more people are trapped into poverty the amount of space needed to house them grows. Ecology tells us that as something grows, it needs more space. Therefore as our economy gets beaten down, there is an increase in the space needed to house those who participate in the culture of poverty. Heck if I had no job I too would be up all hours getting loud and stupid. I too would not care about shoveling my walk or keeping my property up. As someone who is not part of that culture, I am more concerned about keeping my housing values up and keeping out of jail for someone not suing me for having an unshoveled walk.

DetroitPole · February-28-11, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Putting on my hat from my grad school course in Urban Anthropology, what you see here is a result of the growth of the culture of poverty. This really has little to do with race. You can go into much of Northern Michigan [[which is probably about 95 percent white) and see the same things going on.

As more people are trapped into poverty the amount of space needed to house them grows. Ecology tells us that as something grows, it needs more space. Therefore as our economy gets beaten down, there is an increase in the space needed to house those who participate in the culture of poverty. Heck if I had no job I too would be up all hours getting loud and stupid. I too would not care about shoveling my walk or keeping my property up. As someone who is not part of that culture, I am more concerned about keeping my housing values up and keeping out of jail for someone not suing me for having an unshoveled walk.

This appears to be a outward migration, not an outgrowth. These people are cited as Detroiters and likely the usual actors who have been poor for generations. Detroit is not growing or in need of space. The poor are leaving Detroit because the conditions are becoming intolerable to even them.

**SWMAP** · February-28-11, 04:10 PM

Or because their utilities have been turned off at the pole in Detroit. That's why a lot of people move on to the next place.

**kraig** · February-28-11, 05:14 PM

Even though it's being highlighted that way, this isn't just an african american issue. What's not being told are the stories of those moving from Eastpointe, Warren, Roseville and Harper Woods across Metro Parkway [[16 mile) and Hall Road into homes that have now become affordable and being met with pretty much the same attitude. The economics play a big role into it as well. You have upper income people upset that lower middle class can now afford to live in their neighborhoods. The house and car status symbols aren't the tell tale signs of success that they used to be.

**EASTSIDE CAT 67-83** · February-28-11, 05:19 PM

WOW........!!!!!!What a refreshing thread and article. This is exactly what happend in my lower eastside neighborhood back in the 70's and 80's. Amazing how history repeats itself. The most spot on post I've read in this thread is "how current residents will pack up and move on". IMHO the negative environment and behaviors created by the subject residents cannot be changed, it is an historical fact...why would it be different this
time... just because its the burbs and there is a little peer pressure. Good luck with that. Couragious topic.

**Detroitnerd** · February-28-11, 05:52 PM

Yup. Just pack up and move on -- that's how we all keep swirling down the bowl, together.

**jbd441** · February-28-11, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Putting on my hat from my grad school course in Urban Anthropology, what you see here is a result of the growth of the culture of poverty. This really has little to do with race. You can go into much of Northern Michigan [[which is probably about 95 percent white) and see the same things going on.

As more people are trapped into poverty the amount of space needed to house them grows. Ecology tells us that as something grows, it needs more space. Therefore as our economy gets beaten down, there is an increase in the space needed to house those who participate in the culture of poverty. Heck if I had no job I too would be up all hours getting loud and stupid. I too would not care about shoveling my walk or keeping my property up. As someone who is not part of that culture, I am more concerned about keeping my housing values up and keeping out of jail for someone not suing me for having an unshoveled walk.

My Aunt and Uncle lived at Grand River and 7 mile and I can remember going to visit them quite often. The neighborhood was typical middle class and when Detroit was experiencing the beginnings of white flight my Aunt and Uncle stuck it out because they loved their house and neighborhood. By the mid 70's my Aunt left as her neighbor was murdered but my Uncle stayed. He finally sold the place in '85 for less than what he purchased it for in 1946.

I grew up in a lower middle class neighborhood in "Northern Michigan". There were many retired people in our area and many poor but they kept their lawns mowed as well as driveways and sidewalks shoveled.All had vegetable and flower gardens in the summers. If anyone's house was in disrepair, the neighbors got together and helped out. That's the way it used to be.

IMO, many families lost jobs and started on welfare and it has continued. Three generations of families living together and maybe one or two working. It is a continuous cycle impossible to break.

**EASTSIDE CAT 67-83** · February-28-11, 06:06 PM

Detroitnerd
My response was based on personal experience and knowledge of history. Both of which have proved to be true, that I walked away from the toilet bowl so my family could prosper and have a quality of life I/they deserve, not to stay in a situation that was a no win on my watch, you are however welcome to try I wish you luck.

DetroitDad · February-28-11, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by EASTSIDE CAT 67-83

Detroitnerd
My response was based on personal experience and knowledge of history. Both of which have proved to be true, that I walked away from the toilet bowl so my family could prosper and have a quality of life I/they deserve, not to stay in a situation that was a no win on my watch, you are however welcome to try I wish you luck.

The bowl is big.

**canuck** · February-28-11, 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Putting on my hat from my grad school course in Urban Anthropology, what you see here is a result of the growth of the culture of poverty. This really has little to do with race. You can go into much of Northern Michigan [[which is probably about 95 percent white) and see the same things going on.

As more people are trapped into poverty the amount of space needed to house them grows. Ecology tells us that as something grows, it needs more space. Therefore as our economy gets beaten down, there is an increase in the space needed to house those who participate in the culture of poverty. Heck if I had no job I too would be up all hours getting loud and stupid. I too would not care about shoveling my walk or keeping my property up. As someone who is not part of that culture, I am more concerned about keeping my housing values up and keeping out of jail for someone not suing me for having an unshoveled walk.

Yup, the culture of poverty is a the best way to put it. It is the same problem by the way in Europe or North America, plus or minus some of the extreme violence that exists in fairly circumscribed zip codes. Kids are exposed to behavior from the world of music and films that promotes violence and nihilism as a code to live by. All the posturing and bravado fairly complicates the process of elevation out of poverty. At a certain age, kids who havent been exposed to different codes will adopt what their parents and friends know to be right for them. You have the gangsta rapper and the death metal or punk attitudes that crossover black and white culture. You have the shame of poverty versus the acceptance of this poverty and the codes that go with it. So at one point, unless there is an effort to expose children to other stuff, and having them validate it for themselves; they may choose the static comfort of home values instead of the challenge of rigorous study, etc...