Why does it have to be Us vs Them?

[Searay215]

Please tell me why Joann Watson is bitching again about the water board control? Its that same ole Us[[Detroit) vs Them[[suburbs) mentality. The suburbs do not have control, only a say. Detroit has the FINAL say so in rates. I don't understand that mentality....the suburbs can't live without Detroit and Detroit can live without the suburbs, Plain and simple. see story
http://www.freep.com/article/2011022...xt|FRONTPAGE|p

Now Bing is encouraging Detoit police to move back into the city....Hell there are 40,000 abandon homes they can have....and while your at it, require the firemen and all city workers to live in Detroit too. Then put up a wall and Detroit can be an island all by its self....

Sorry for the rant, but this makes my blood boil.... When I am out of town and people ask me where I am from I say Detroit, because I think of Detroit and the suburbs as all one.....If you think I am wrong and some of you will tell me so. If you agree tell me so too.

This should not be a Us vs Them....when this mentality goes away is when we can heal as a Total community. Work together and solve our common problems together....as it should be.

[princealbert]

The "powers that be" love to divide and conquer. That's how they get to stay in office. Promoting hatred and ignorance wins elections almost every time. I have lived in the city and now I live in the suburbs, yet I identify myself as being a Detroiter. Only ignorant people will argue with me about it. What do you think people from Brooklyn, Queens, Bronx, Staten Island, Yonkers or Hoboken call themselves? New Yorkers. This whole region is retarded if this is really an issue.

[DetroitPole]

Please tell me why Joann Watson is bitching again about the water board control? Its that same ole Us[[Detroit) vs Them[[suburbs) mentality. The suburbs do not have control, only a say. Detroit has the FINAL say so in rates. I don't understand that mentality....the suburbs can't live without Detroit and Detroit can live without the suburbs, Plain and simple. see story
http://www.freep.com/article/20110227/NEWS01/102270587/Detroit-residents-rally-against-outside-influence-city-institutions?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|FRONTPAGE|p

Now Bing is encouraging Detoit police to move back into the city....Hell there are 40,000 abandon homes they can have....and while your at it, require the firemen and all city workers to live in Detroit too. Then put up a wall and Detroit can be an island all by its self....

Sorry for the rant, but this makes my blood boil.... When I am out of town and people ask me where I am from I say Detroit, because I think of Detroit and the suburbs as all one.....If you think I am wrong and some of you will tell me so. If you agree tell me so too.

This should not be a Us vs Them....when this mentality goes away is when we can heal as a Total community. Work together and solve our common problems together....as it should be.

The mentality arises partly from rabble-rousers who know it will play with the constituents, but these are serious issues.

It was a shameless power grab the way control of the water department and even system was demanded after Mercado was indicted. The suburbs are always demanding some kind of control or say in Detroit's governance, but if Detroit were to do the reverse, there would be uproar and outrage.

What's your problem with encouraging police officers to move back into the city? As you pointed out, the city has no shortage of vacant houses and is bleeding residents. This trend must be reversed. No one is forcing anyone to live anywhere. Detroit needs safe, occupied neighborhoods of good, middle class tax-payers. Are you against this? I don't understand.

I agree the city and the suburbs need each other absolutely. Where is your outrage that L. Brooks Patterson refuses to support light rail into Oakland County?? That is something that could unify our region economically and socially. What about how Novi and Livonia have opted out of SMART? Huh? You want to talk about a fucking wall? How about keeping Detroiters from coming into their cities by cutting the bus routes?

What pisses me off more are the Detroit boosters who think that by calling the whole region Detroit we are somehow a unified region. No, we have real economic and social divides in this region that we can't just ignore and they'll go away. Detroit is also on life support and any asset or revenue stream lost is another nail in the coffin - and Detroiters know this.

If we're going to talk nomenclature, I say "Metro Detroit" and "Metro Detroiters."

[shovelhead]

I don't want to start a s***storm here, the us vs. them,suburbs taking our jewels,etc. and on.......

My question is this: if the city is in the business of selling a product such as water and sewerage, why doesn't the MPSC have jurisdiction over rate increases such as it does over electricity, natural gas, or telephone service?

Is it because it is municipal owned, like our city? Our water and sewerage only services our city limits IIRC. And the service area being our city only is exempt from MPSC oversight as it is owned by the taxpayers and exists only for the benefit of our residents and businesses?

I've got no horse in this race, live and work in an exburb, just wondering.....

[shovelhead]

Detroit Pole,

I can't speak from the Livonia viewpoint, but I can from the Novi viewpoint as I lived there when the VOTERS opted out of the SMART bus.

Grand River to Novi Road, basically only to the malls. Limited hours, no shelters, hard to find schedules, and the rest of the city, approximately 36 square miles in area NOT covered. I forget how much it cost the average taxpayer per year, but enough said they were not getting a fair return on their money. And at the same time, Novi was in a lawsuit that ultimately would cost they 65 MILLION DOLLARS as a settlement. At that time, it was estimated that the settlement of this case with principal and interest would cost the average homeowner two hundred dollars a year in a Special Assessment for twenty years. Look it up, the Sandstone Development.

The way the taxpayers were getting squeezed at that time along with the uncertainty on the lawsuit probably entered into a lot of peoples thought processes. Not to mention the bond proposals that were continually put out for vote in both the Novi and Walled Lake school systems. And not all of us lived in McMansions or could afford that. That two hundred dollar SAD was almost a fifteen percent jump in my property taxes at that time.

Novi did a lot of stupid things in that era. IN the early 90's there was a push to buy up land for open space parks. Us taxpayers fell for it hook line and sinker. Once they bought the old tree farm on Twelve and a Half mile road, the "New" plans were in the making. And none of this was told to us, it was a later "enhancenment" for the taxpayers!

The city wanted to develop this area previously known as open space as a golf course and banquet center. HMMM, how did this happen? The only way this got shut down was a city charter amendment prohibiting this. Yes, this too can be looked up. City Clowncil [[there too) meetings were getting ugly, we were told that we [[the taxpayers) did not know what was good for us. For real! A petition drive and special vote on a charter amendment was the only thing that saved our a***s then.

And as a bonus, part of that park land was used to settle the Sandstone lawsuit. The houses on the north side of Twelve Mile east of the CSX railway to Dixon Road were built on settlement land.
Oh yeah, forgot to mention, the city had to spend about a half million on Arsenic abatement as that area was previously a apple orchard and this was a byproduct of tree spraying back in the day. This was before they could turn the land over to the developer. Again this can be researched.



I voted no at the time, it was not racist, it was economic. Just fallout from being burned too many times......

[shovelhead]

I forgot to mention the fiasco at the Walled Lake Amusement Park grounds. That property was sold off to a developer in the mid to late 1980's to be developed as a marina and hotel. This was the agreement between him and the city, set in stone so to speak.

A few years later the developer came back and wanted to alter the agreement. The city said no, a lawsuit was started. The settlement was that the city got the property back AFTER they paid the developer some costs, less than 100k at the time, again in the early 1990's. We [[area residents) were surveyed by the city after that on how we wanted this land used. We opted for open parkland. Which the city agreed to at the time. A couple of times they made noises about selling this off,that were not acted on, the last just before or after we moved away. Last time I drove by there it had a city sign denoting it was parkland. At least for a few more years.......

[R8RBOB]

I was prepare to type some words to answer the question why there is an "us vs. them" and I realized that it is a simple answer.

It is just politics.

[mwilbert]

Us vs. them is just the way human psychology works, and has throughout recorded history, and no doubt before. The problem in Metro Detroit is that people have too narrow a sense of us and too broad a sense of them.

[eno]

Us vs. them is just the way human psychology works, and has throughout recorded history, and no doubt before. The problem in Metro Detroit is that people have too narrow a sense of us and too broad a sense of them.

good answer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_Yayz5o-l0

[SteadySky]

Boy, Shovelhead's comments are interesting. I live in Troy and I take part in our local governmental system and serve on one of the major boards within the city. I can totally understand his opinion as I have been through it with my own city too. The last two library millages being a case in point. I do think think our responses to more regional issues [[as well as national) can get influenced by the crap we see at a local level.

Having grown up in the suburbs [[East Detroit) and always lived in the Metropolitan Detroit Area there does seem to be a Us vs. Them idea of how things work. Often the Us and Them groups seem to change with the issue.

I agree, the issue comes down to politics and desire to strength an argument and willingness to divide and ailienate others in the attempt to get what one wants. Personally, [[and this is after I have had involvement with both Mercado, DEGC, the Kilpatrick Administration, and Bobby Ferguson on Detroit development projects) that it is best if the DWSD was more regional in its managerial makeup. But, ownership of the system and many other factors need to be resolved and fairly administered. In regards to water, its not US or THEM its OUR system. Heck, give the powers that be time and they will want Great Lakes Water out west, but that is another issue.

Political and local policy activist hack-types always will use whatever they can grasp at to get their way and to stir up the population to their cause. Being part of the population I have too much to deal with rather than get pulled into one of these issues. So by using fear, threats, and us/them inuendos it gets our attention and usually in a less than productive manner.

[DetroitPole]

Please tell me why Joann Watson is bitching again about the water board control? Its that same ole Us[[Detroit) vs Them[[suburbs) mentality. The suburbs do not have control, only a say. Detroit has the FINAL say so in rates. I don't understand that mentality....the suburbs can't live without Detroit and Detroit can live without the suburbs, Plain and simple. see story
http://www.freep.com/article/20110227/NEWS01/102270587/Detroit-residents-rally-against-outside-influence-city-institutions?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|FRONTPAGE|p

Now Bing is encouraging Detoit police to move back into the city....Hell there are 40,000 abandon homes they can have....and while your at it, require the firemen and all city workers to live in Detroit too. Then put up a wall and Detroit can be an island all by its self....

Sorry for the rant, but this makes my blood boil.... When I am out of town and people ask me where I am from I say Detroit, because I think of Detroit and the suburbs as all one.....If you think I am wrong and some of you will tell me so. If you agree tell me so too.

This should not be a Us vs Them....when this mentality goes away is when we can heal as a Total community. Work together and solve our common problems together....as it should be.

I also find it very telling that your indictment does not include both sides - which are equally guilty - but only Detroiters. You even said it was Us/Detroiters vs. Them/Suburbs. Oh so it doesn't work the other way around [[us/suburbs vs. them/Detroiters?)
Detroiters who just elected a suburban mayor who has been cordial with the region and a half-way decent Council [[aside from Charles Pugh and JoAnn Watson, they all seem like decent folks). No, ignore the positives, focus on the negatives.
So you're as guilty as the rest for fostering divisions.
First remove the beam from your own eye.

[English]

Detroiters who just elected a suburban mayor who has been cordial with the region and a half-way decent Council [[aside from Charles Pugh and JoAnn Watson, they all seem like decent folks). No, ignore the positives, focus on the negatives.

I have to say this: DetroitYES the day after the 2009 elections was a very disappointing place. Bing will be overlooked the same way that Archer was, although both were very favorable towards the suburbs and were the opposite of Young and Kilpatrick. No, Detroit voters are dumb, evil, and militant when they elect people that the 'burbs hate, and they are non-existent nonentities when they elect people who are pro-business and pro-'burb.

[jackie5275]

The "powers that be" love to divide and conquer. That's how they get to stay in office. Promoting hatred and ignorance wins elections almost every time.

JoAnn Watson's been around long enough for this to be all she knows, the only play in her gamebook, so she has to use it repeatedly.

[Augustiner]

I have to say this: DetroitYES the day after the 2009 elections was a very disappointing place. Bing will be overlooked the same way that Archer was, although both were very favorable towards the suburbs and were the opposite of Young and Kilpatrick. No, Detroit voters are dumb, evil, and militant when they elect people that the 'burbs hate, and they are non-existent nonentities when they elect people who are pro-business and pro-'burb.

If people acknowledge that Detroit's problems are anything other than 100% self-inflicted, then they might feel obligated to help solve them. God knows we can't have that.

[Gistok]

I also find it very telling that your indictment does not include both sides - which are equally guilty - but only Detroiters. You even said it was Us/Detroiters vs. Them/Suburbs. Oh so it doesn't work the other way around [[us/suburbs vs. them/Detroiters?)

DetroitPole... I don't know what the point is of this comment here??

As for the City's Water & Sewage Department... they are the most inept group of people I have ever had to deal with....

5 years ago my late mother had a huge water bill that winter. I looked at her meter and found that they hadn't read it in nearly a year... and they were sending her threatening letters about not having her [[outside) meter read.

This upset mom greatly, and I had to make 4 separate visits to their office at McNichols & Schoenherr to finally get someone out to do nothing more than a simple accurate meter reading. By my 4th trip I went postal and made a big scene at the water dept. office until a supervisor said they would have someone there that week.

But mom [[in her 80s then) was so upset over being worried about having her water turned off... that she [[who used to be very proud of her green lawn) never watered her lawn again [[the last 4 years of her life) over the anguish that the incompetent city water department put her thru.

Yes that department is as useless as any government entity I have ever met. They were too inept to simply send someone out to read a simple f'ing water meter.

And you wonder why the suburbs want to take them over????

[kraig]

DetroitPole... I don't know what the point is of this comment here??

As for the City's Water & Sewage Department... they are the most inept group of people I have ever had to deal with....

5 years ago my late mother had a huge water bill that winter. I looked at her meter and found that they hadn't read it in nearly a year... and they were sending her threatening letters about not having her [[outside) meter read.

This upset mom greatly, and I had to make 4 separate visits to their office at McNichols & Schoenherr to finally get someone out to do nothing more than a simple accurate meter reading. By my 4th trip I went postal and made a big scene at the water dept. office until a supervisor said they would have someone there that week.

But mom [[in her 80s then) was so upset over being worried about having her water turned off... that she [[who used to be very proud of her green lawn) never watered her lawn again [[the last 4 years of her life) over the anguish that the incompetent city water department put her thru.

Yes that department is as useless as any government entity I have ever met. They were too inept to simply send someone out to read a simple f'ing water meter.

And you wonder why the suburbs want to take them over????

I'm sorry to hear about what you and your Mother had to go through. But that's not why some suburban politicians want to take over the water department. They want to do it for the money. Money is the same reason why DPS is taken over every few years. There's always a bond of either a half billion or more on the table at the time of the takeover. Hell, as bad as DDOT is, no one from the burbs is trying to take that over. Why? Because there's no money in it.

[Gistok]

I know Kraig... but it felt good to vent....

[kraig]

I know Kraig... but it fet good to vent....

I hear you. The shame of it is that the City of Detroit should be doing everything that it can to improve its customer service for no other reason than a more efficient system would be more profitable. Although doing it because it's the right thing to do wouldn't hurt either.

[lilpup]

Us vs Them arises when distributions are skewed and those that have not only aren't willing to share but are willing to use leverage to get even more.

and psychopaths make good business bigwigs as easily as they do criminals...

psychopathic personality

[DetroitPole]

DetroitPole... I don't know what the point is of this comment here??

As for the City's Water & Sewage Department... they are the most inept group of people I have ever had to deal with....

5 years ago my late mother had a huge water bill that winter. I looked at her meter and found that they hadn't read it in nearly a year... and they were sending her threatening letters about not having her [[outside) meter read.

This upset mom greatly, and I had to make 4 separate visits to their office at McNichols & Schoenherr to finally get someone out to do nothing more than a simple accurate meter reading. By my 4th trip I went postal and made a big scene at the water dept. office until a supervisor said they would have someone there that week.

But mom [[in her 80s then) was so upset over being worried about having her water turned off... that she [[who used to be very proud of her green lawn) never watered her lawn again [[the last 4 years of her life) over the anguish that the incompetent city water department put her thru.

Yes that department is as useless as any government entity I have ever met. They were too inept to simply send someone out to read a simple f'ing water meter.

And you wonder why the suburbs want to take them over????

I'm with you on this, 100%. Out of all the city departments even, this one seems to be the worse. I'm sorry about what your mother had to go through. They've done the same crap to me.

Still I echo what kraig said. This isn't about improving customer service on the part of the unsavory politicians.

[Lowell]

...that's not why some suburban politicians want to take over the water department. They want to do it for the money. Money is the same reason why DPS is taken over every few years. There's always a bond of either a half billion or more on the table at the time of the takeover. Hell, as bad as DDOT is, no one from the burbs is trying to take that over. Why? Because there's no money in it.

Profoundly simple: They want to do it for the money. This is not an us vs. them. It is about the money.

Detroit is also stuck caring for probably 85% of the region's poor, disabled, felons, ex-felons and homeless and being rewarded with obscenely high insurance rates for that service.

I don't seen anyone lining up take any of those over either.

In fact I am having difficulty seeing what Detroit gets out of this deal. A cessation of whining?

Here is a suggestion. Have a limited IPO for the DWSD. Get a valuation and have each community in the system buy shares equivalent to its usage but is also limited to that amount.

Let's say Livonia uses 5% of the system and the value of the system is $10 Billion, Livonia ponies up their $50 million and has a 5% say in the system. Detroit would retain it 25% share and collect $7.5 billion. As a minority shareholder it would only have a quarter of the director seats and policy and rates would be decided by the majority of paying owners of the system.

That's about how it happens in our free market economy, right?

[shovelhead]

Profoundly simple: They want to do it for the money. This is not an us vs. them. It is about the money.

Detroit is also stuck caring for probably 85% of the region's poor, disabled, felons, ex-felons and homeless and being rewarded with obscenely high insurance rates for that service.

I don't seen anyone lining up take any of those over either.

In fact I am having difficulty seeing what Detroit gets out of this deal. A cessation of whining?

Here is a suggestion. Have a limited IPO for the DWSD. Get a valuation and have each community in the system buy shares equivalent to its usage but is also limited to that amount.

Let's say Livonia uses 5% of the system and the value of the system is $10 Billion, Livonia ponies up their $50 million and has a 5% say in the system. Detroit would retain it 25% share and collect $7.5 billion. As a minority shareholder it would only have a quarter of the director seats and policy and rates would be decided by the majority of paying owners of the system.

That's about how it happens in our free market economy, right?

At this point the DWSD would then become a for-profit entity. There would be a lot of negatives then such as loss of tax free status, a board of directors overseeing the operations. The SEC overseeing the IPO, an in-depth analysis of all facets of operation by the SEC before the offering. Previous pension obligations would be another sticking point, most likely IMO Detroit would be on the hook for them. And would the state and federal governments allow this this to happen, the scenario of a quasi-public corporation, a for profit [[now) entity owned by a municipality sold off in shares to other municipalities? Maybe I'm missing something here. Not being sarcastic, I just don't understand.

Another point, the $7.5 billion revenue you theorize that comes available, would that have to be retained by the DWSD and not returned to the city's General Fund? IPO's are launched to take a company public AND to generate funds for development, expansion and day to day operating expenses until the time that it becomes profitable. If the funds were not retained by the DWSD, would the new "company" not be fully funded and loaded down with debt? And what benefit would the city get from this if the generated funds stayed with the DWSD and not to the General Fund? It would lose a source of income thereby reducing funding to other departments. What else generates funds for the city's operation, income and property taxes and operation of DDOT and City Airport. Not enough there to sustain the city's day to day expenses IMO. And again my question comes up, does the MPSC now take control of pricing?


And last of all, what would happen in this scenario, DWSD is sold, offered as a IPO, revenue from the shares sold given to the General Fund instead of the new entity due to a court ruling that the proceeds belong to the city. The new company, in say ten years becomes insolvent. Bankruptcy declared, Now that it is a publicly held company, the assets are sold at public auction, It is either broken up and sold off piecemeal, or a large foreign interest [[say China) buys the whole thing, Then what happens to the whole mess?

Again, no horse in this race, just looking at a bunch of what ifs............

[Lowell]

It would not and should never be a private for-profit entity. State law could be structured to keep it publicly owned - i.e. only municipalities who used the system could own shares, indeed would be required to buy shares proportionate to their use. This is little different than what now exists, except Detroit owns 100% of the shares, so to speak.

Similarly if a Livonia or a Warren shrunk, as many inner ring communities have, they could sell down some of their shares to a growing Canton or Clinton Township. When the city of New Sprawlopolis rises at 52 Mile Road and wants water, it could be required to buy in via a new stock offering. Thus extension of the system would be paid for by those creating the expense.

Again state law could mandate what Detroit did with the profits of the system it bought and paid for, such as repairing its creaking infrastructure and pay off its debts.

As system owners communities would have voice equal to their ownership and, voila, no more whining.

I believe the old saying is, "Put up or shut up."

[Mak55]

Life is in this day and age is beyond crazy!! It it is called Greed.The taxpayers pay for everything and never have no say, it seems our leaders [[SOME) are from the circus with tricks and acts.

[Mak55]

You hit a Grandslam