Feelin' Nationwide Strikes Approaching

**Gannon** · February-25-11, 07:27 AM

...because of this absolute fucking idiot of a governor who has now IMPLICATED OURS in collusion.

All due a well-placed and -timed prank phone call.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/0...as-David-Koch-

Read it and weep, Republicrites. One of your own has admitted collusion with the cocky Koch brothers.

And Snyder is apparently in on it, too.

I'm feeling a nationwide strike coming on...unions will prove their worth, and will make those like Oldredfordette proud. They ARE still relevant and necessary, not just like the fat cats at the top.

Although there are a few that have sold out...the bulk of 'em just want justice!

Cheers on this very curious day...after Wisconsin legislature started the revolution...with their illegal vote call and rush to non-count.

[[JUST like the governor told the fake-Koch they'd do over the phone. Cut their electronic pay, force them to come in to pick up a paycheck on the floor of the house, get the quorum...LET the Dems leave again, or wait for them to go into a private meeting...then rush the vote.)

I really cannot believe I heard what I did on WDET upon waking this fine day.

**Gannon** · February-25-11, 07:32 AM

The SAME spirit that has run amok in northern Africa has arrived here in full force!

**MikeM** · February-25-11, 10:44 AM

Please...you can't be serious.

**Detroitnerd** · February-25-11, 11:37 AM

As long as we have unpatriotic, anti-middle class leaders like Walker, there will be strikes.

**oladub** · February-25-11, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

As long as we have unpatriotic, anti-middle class leaders like Walker, there will be strikes.

I'm not sure how patriotic got into this as patriotism usually has to do with national issues. Unions are associated with middle class well being however. Non-public unions have been destroyed at the national level under both Democrats and Republicans who have subjected US labor to competing with cheaper foreign labor through a variety of tax policies, trade policies and immigration policies. US workers' standards of living have been reduced to better compete with their foreign labor counterparts. Consequently, non government workers whom are now only 7% union, have a more difficult time supporting better paid union government workers who have been directly, but not indirectly, insulated from competing with foreign labor. Unless politicians at the national level address the problems they have created, there will probably be more labor unrest. The alternative is the continued breakdown of our economy as happened under Eva Peron in Argentina. Maybe it's time for out politicians, of both parties, in D.C. to redefine patriotism to include looking out for US workers.

**1KielsonDrive** · February-25-11, 12:38 PM

I hope you're right Gannon. We need tens and hundreds of thousands out in the streets. This anti-tax, anti-science, anti-worker, anti- woman, anti, anti, anti bullshit has to come to an end. Our election system was co-opted by money from corporate oligarchs a long time ago. Billionaires are steering our ship.

**Detroitnerd** · February-25-11, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by oladub

I'm not sure how patriotic got into this as patriotism usually has to do with national issues. Unions are associated with middle class well being however. Non-public unions have been destroyed at the national level under both Democrats and Republicans who have subjected US labor to competing with cheaper foreign labor through a variety of tax policies, trade policies and immigration policies. US workers' standards of living have been reduced to better compete with their foreign labor counterparts. Consequently, non government workers whom are now only 7% union, have a more difficult time supporting better paid union government workers who have been directly, but not indirectly, insulated from competing with foreign labor. Unless politicians at the national level address the problems they have created, there will probably be more labor unrest. The alternative is the continued breakdown of our economy as happened under Eva Peron in Argentina. Maybe it's time for out politicians, of both parties, in D.C. to redefine patriotism to include looking out for US workers.

I think both parties can be called anti-middle class. One is the carrot, one is the stick. Same difference. If we could redefine treason to include selling out to Fortune 500 fifth-columnists, yes, I'd like to see some trials. And sentences. And maybe a few nationalizations as a result of it.

**Gannon** · February-25-11, 03:03 PM

The brothers whom the fake-Koch was impersonating in order to gain the confidence of this governor.

http://www.npr.org/2011/02/25/134040...lionaire-twins

**Locke09** · February-25-11, 07:12 PM

There will be no "uprising" as long as they are successfully pitting private vs. public employees, union vs. non-union employees, young vs. old and current workers vs. retirees. And right now they are being quite successful.

**Ray1936** · February-25-11, 09:06 PM

Just make sure you don't damage my shrubs while you're marching. I tend to get angry.

**GOAT** · February-26-11, 11:30 AM

Right Gannon because "Republicrites" are the only evil on your stupid 2 party system that plays both sides to the benefit of them only.

Perhaps some public employee unions have swung the pendulum too far and are not living inteh real world that the rest of live while we pay THEIR way.

Fuck'em!

**jackie5275** · February-27-11, 08:46 PM

Originally Posted by GOAT

real world that the rest of live while we pay THEIR way.

How do you pay their way?

DetroitDad · February-28-11, 01:29 AM

Gannon,

I can't say I disagree, but I do think that this has resulted in some pretty screwy ways of doing things. I think the system of tenure among teachers is anti-productive. Get rid of the young and keep the old, is just a bizarre way of doing things. It's like GM getting rid of all the young innovators in order to save the older traditionalists.

**GOAT** · March-01-11, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by jackie5275

How do you pay their way?

Taxes. That is where public sector employees get their paycheques. If it weren't for the taxpayer, some of these unions and their employees [[lets be honest unions think they employee their "members") wouldn't be getting the pay they receive.

**Locke09** · March-01-11, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by GOAT

Taxes. That is where public sector employees get their paycheques. If it weren't for the taxpayer, some of these unions and their employees [[lets be honest unions think they employee their "members") wouldn't be getting the pay they receive.

Don't our taxes also pay private sector employees? Many formerly public jobs are outsourced now. Taxes still pay for those jobs. And, public agencies contract for a whole host of goods and services from private companies. A great many private companies could not even exist but for their government contracts.

Plus, public employees pay taxes as well. In fact, depending on where they live, some of them have a higher tax burden than average.

I don't see myself as "paying their way". I see myself as paying for services, just as I pay for lawn service, dry cleaning, hair stylist, etc. I don't begrudge my hairstylist her Lexus, even though I guess I partially paid for it.

**GOAT** · March-02-11, 05:48 PM

Services? Really? You get good service from the gov't? Then how is it that public sector employees make on average 30% more in wages and benefits than the private sector [[don't get me started on pensions)?

I say they need reign in these expenditures to fall in line with private sector jobs. Then fair is fair. While we are at it I think the bloated bureacracy needs a bit of trimming as well. It has morphed into a stagnant pool where red tape rules.

**ghettopalmetto** · March-02-11, 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by GOAT

Services? Really? You get good service from the gov't? Then how is it that public sector employees make on average 30% more in wages and benefits than the private sector [[don't get me started on pensions)?

I say they need reign in these expenditures to fall in line with private sector jobs. Then fair is fair. While we are at it I think the bloated bureacracy needs a bit of trimming as well. It has morphed into a stagnant pool where red tape rules.

When cashiers at Walmart start having graduate degrees, then we'll talk about wage differentials between the public and private sector.

A friend of mine works a part-time gig for the State of Wisconsin. She has a master's degree from the George H.W. Bush School of Public Policy. She makes the full-time equivalent of $30,000 a year. Is THAT what you mean by "reigning in expenditures to fall in line with private sector jobs"? It's just a big race to the bottom, huh?

America, fuck yeah, but hell if we have to pay for anything!

**Locke09** · March-03-11, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by GOAT

Services? Really? You get good service from the gov't? Then how is it that public sector employees make on average 30% more in wages and benefits than the private sector [[don't get me started on pensions)?

I say they need reign in these expenditures to fall in line with private sector jobs. Then fair is fair. While we are at it I think the bloated bureacracy needs a bit of trimming as well. It has morphed into a stagnant pool where red tape rules.

First, I never said whether the services were good or bad. But yes, sometimes, in fact more often than not, I do get good service from the government - even the IRS believe it or not.

As for public employees making 30% more than private employees, that is ridiculous, even when you count in benefits. I am in a position to know that if you compare comparable positions and education, private employees win every time. Does anyone really believe a public lawyer makes as much as a private one? They absolutely do not. A public technology worker does not make nearly what a priavte one costs the government when their jobs are outsourced, even when you factor in benefits. A public accountant doesn't make what a private one makes. I handle contracts and have to do "apples to apples" comparisons so I know this for a fact. It is easy information to find out if people want to know for themselves.

Public employees got good pensions because they couldn't get the salaries. If they can't be afforded going forward, then that is understandable. But I have no respect for the desire to break commitments that were already made. No more respect for that than I have for people who walk away from homes just because they have lost their value or companies that file for bankruptcy causing stockholders to lose their money and then reorganize and boast about their new profits.

Escalating costs and wage reductions mean I have had to adjust to continue to leave within my means. But I haven't gone to a single creditor and said I can no longer afford to keep my commitment to you. I just don't make any new ones and eliminate non-essentials to get to a budget I can handle.

**GOAT** · March-03-11, 05:44 PM

Oh yes we can all site examples wher someone is underpaid, underemployed....but the fact remains public sector employees are paid approx. 30% higher than private sector and that has to change. Especially when factoring in pensions and the inability to reduce their numbers via unions screaming bloody murder and strikes.

Considering I have read numerous studies that do support the 30% difference [[one done by the Fraser Institute) and others coming from BOTH left-wing and right-wing media I would surmise that yes they are over-paid compared to the rest of us.

As for the "race tothe bottom". Well guess what? Not on my dime or anyone elses as we suffer but they don't? Give your heads a shake. I'm done with this thread.

**ghettopalmetto** · March-03-11, 08:19 PM

Originally Posted by GOAT

Oh yes we can all site examples wher someone is underpaid, underemployed....but the fact remains public sector employees are paid approx. 30% higher than private sector and that has to change.

Do those pay differences account for differing levels of education and skill sets? WHY does that have to change? Because you say so? Should we expect that say, government attorneys should be making the same amount of money as a gas station attendant or Walmart cashier?

**Locke09** · March-03-11, 09:52 PM

A recent study by an economist at Rutgers university shows that 37% of Minnesota's private sector employees have a college degree, while 60% of Minnesota's public sector employees have a college degree. However, Minnesota's public sector employees earn about 7.9% less than comparable private sector employees, including benefits. The new York Times reports that in 47 out of 50 states, public workers make less than comparable private workers, when they have degrees. Of course, to be honest the NY Times report didn't include pensions. But if someone is making less in wages, why shouldn't they get greater benefits?

Anyway, perhaps the answer is for government to stop hiring people with degrees. Of course, if they outsource jobs that require degrees, they will actually end up paying more money because private sector employees with degrees make more than public sector employees with degrees. So instead they're trying to convince people with degrees to be compensated like a Walmart greeter.

**oladub** · March-03-11, 11:58 PM

Back in the 60's, when Sweden was aspiring to more socialists ideals, garbage men were paid higher salaries than teachers. The explanation was that in an equalitarian society, teachers had more status then garbage men so garbage men needed more compensation to achieve equality.

I had an acquaintance in Detroit who was the only Jewish high school dropout I've ever known. He had to drop out of school to support his mother. He worked in an architecture firm, technically as a 'draftsman', because degrees were required to be architects in Michigan. When he received his draft notice, he went to Canada. In Ontario, at the time, there was something like a bar exam to certify one as an architect. He passed and was able to make much more money in Toronto as an architect than he had earned in Michigan. Degrees are nice but knowledge should be more important. I'm sure some women could be excellent grade school teachers without a degree.

I'm just trying to say that there is this snotty attitude some people with degrees have suggesting that they should be put on a throne because they have chosen to pursue a degree. Gov. Walker does not have a degree and not a week goes by when I don't hear or read some school teacher trying to assert their superiority because of their teaching degree.

**jt1** · March-04-11, 12:46 AM

Major strikes when there is a national 10% unemployment rate [[which likely means closer to 15% out of work) is about as idiotic as it comes.

The outcomes will be as follows:
1. Those looking for jobs will happily take one of the open positions.
2. Wages will go down [[since there are a lot of desperate people out there)
3. No point will be made and nothing will resound with politicians.

Striking now is about the dumbest thing the pro-union people could do - it would just prove that they can easily be replaced.

**jt1** · March-04-11, 12:54 AM

Originally Posted by oladub

Degrees are nice but knowledge should be more important. I'm sure some women could be excellent grade school teachers without a degree.

I'm just trying to say that there is this snotty attitude some people with degrees have suggesting that they should be put on a throne because they have chosen to pursue a degree. Gov. Walker does not have a degree and not a week goes by when I don't hear or read some school teacher trying to assert their superiority because of their teaching degree.

Wow, condescend [[sp) much. So you are implying that the ability to transfer knowledge is just something someone can do without any education/ Woudl you also support your accountant having no education or your attorney having no education.

I always laugh that any idiot that sits in a classroom thinks they can teach but has absolutely no ability to do so. I have a feeling you proved me right but.......since we are making sweeping generalizations I would be curious to know what you do an dhow much you make.

There are a few things a civilized society should offer citizens but people like you are so quick to dismiss education and the role of teachers it would be laughable if it weren't so sad.

**oladub** · March-04-11, 01:36 AM

jt1: Wow, condescend [[sp) much. So you are implying that the ability to transfer knowledge is just something someone can do without any education/ Woudl you also support your accountant having no education or your attorney having no education.

Some people have natural abilities, some have informal educations, and some require formal education to attain the same competency. I am more interested in knowledge, however obtained, than pieces of paper on the wall. I might be reassured by the wall hangings if I don't know someone though. It's an easy thing to measure.

I always laugh that any idiot that sits in a classroom thinks they can teach but has absolutely no ability to do so. I have a feeling you proved me right but.......since we are making sweeping generalizations I would be curious to know what you do an dhow much you make.

I've had good and bad teachers too. I am but a humble pensioner and farmer. No, it isn't my policy to tell anyone how much I make but it is below the national average. However, I eat good food, do not have immediate financial worries, when I look out my windows I can only see one one neighbor's house, and my kids are doing well in computers and medicine. So although my income is below the national average, I consider myself moderately well off.

There are a few things a civilized society should offer citizens but people like you are so quick to dismiss education and the role of teachers it would be laughable if it weren't so sad.

I didn't dismiss either education or good teachers. I criticized snottiness some people exhibit based only on having a degree. I will try to make my point by telling a story. My father only started school in a very isolated place in north Ontario at age eight not knowing a word of English. Fortunately, he went to a one room schoolhouse so he finished his algebra at age 13 but there was no high school in the community. His father had my father build him a new house at age 17. Then he went into the RCAF where he scored the highest score recorded to date on the RCAF carpentry aptitude test. He wound up being the field superintendent for one of Detroit's largest carpentry companies without even a high school degree. This isn't to say that someone with combined degrees in civil engineering and management couldn't do the same job but it is to say that knowledge and talent, irregardless of their source, are necessary.