Ideas for a City of Greater Detroit

[Detroitnerd]

I was just toying with an online mapping program, and, just for kicks, plotted out a circle with a 21-mile radius centered on Eight Mile and Wyoming. Counterclockwise, it comes ashore roughly north of Selfridge, arcs up over where the farms meet the subdivisions, bisects Stony Creek, swoops down over Wateford, encompassing Oakland County Airport, covers Commerce, runs almost north-south along Chubb Road, arcs back while still covering Canton, covers all of DTW, and cuts across Trenton and Grosse Ile before crossing into Canada.

What if we were to say, for the sake of argument, that the city of Detroit were to be the City of Greater Detroit?

What would the area be? Would it be smaller than Jacksonville, Fla.? Larger than New York City's five boroughs?

What would the population of this semicircle be? Would it put Detroit back in the Top Ten of American cities?

What would the per capita wealth be?

Has any city police force or fire department covered an area this large?

What if, instead of 100-odd communities all raising taxes to pay for their various police departments, fire departments, zoning boards, school boards, etc., we were to have one large supercity. How much money could we save?

I know this sort of topic invites discussion of the hard realities that make something like this politically impossible now. But just a bit of blue-sky thinking goes a long way.

[DetroitPlanner]

Solar Roads would be a great idea for a great Detroit!

[Detroitnerd]

Solar Roads would be a great idea for a great Detroit!

Haha. Thanks for injecting a bit of levity, DP.

[BrushStart]

If Detroit did that:

- It would be approximately 1,300 sq. miles
- The population would be just under 4 million, making Greater Detroit the 2nd largest city in the U.S.
- The per capita wealth would be very high
- The police force would have to cover an area more than twice as large as Houston

We could probably save hundreds of millions of dollars per year from the economy of scale.

[Detroitnerd]

If Detroit did that:

- It would be approximately 1,300 sq. miles

That would be the fifth-largest [[by area) city in the United States, and the largest in the contiguous United States. It would be about twice as large as the next largest in the contiguous states, larger than Jacksonville, Fla. [[757.7 sq. mi.), Anaconda, Mont. [[737 sq. mi.) and Butte, Mont. [[716.1 sq. mi.)

- The population would be just under 4 million, making Greater Detroit the 2nd largest city in the U.S.

Now that would turn some heads, wouldn't it? Instead of all of us bemoaning Lansing withholding its revenue-sharing, couldn't we be a stronger contender for money? Wouldn't people across the state of Michigan feel less disdain and more pride for a city like that? Second-largest city in the United States? Chicago, eat your heart out.

- The per capita wealth would be very high

And with one region, we might finally be able to use the city's taxes to build the region properly.

- The police force would have to cover an area more than twice as large as Houston

The sheer scale would be a challenge. We'd have to start thinking about ways to take exurban environments and provide inducements to let some of them revert to greenbelt. That could save some bucks.

We could probably save hundreds of millions of dollars per year from the economy of scale.

And a gift of hundreds of millions of dollars per year by working together? What a windfall, and never was it needed by a metroplex more!

[canuck]

And Detroit wouldnt hafta incentivize police officer's move to city neighborhoods. The combined energy might instead be focused on redesigning the city with major allocation of resources not the least of which could be intellectual contributions from universities.

[hybridy]

easpointe dropped the reference, and its likely that all other suburbs agree. pitch it after the baby boomer generation has passed...until the generations that witnessed 60's riots/racial integration and urban decay that ensued have passed it's highly unlikey to fly unless foisted by a large political entity

[Richard]

easpointe dropped the reference, and its likely that all other suburbs agree. pitch it after the baby boomer generation has passed...until the generations that witnessed 60's riots/racial integration and urban decay that ensued have passed it's highly unlikey to fly unless foisted by a large political entity

I am a baby boomer and I like the idea ,the suburbs were available to get away from all of that stuff but there is no escaping it now, as it is everywhere now, so we might as well group together and deal with it.

[Johnnny5]

"Pipe dream" is the first term that comes to mind. =)

Don't get me wrong, I see how the City would benefeit from a combined regional government [[And combined tax dollars), but with the exception of Pontiac there is not one Metro Detroit suburb that would sign on for this. And to be honest I can't blame them one bit.

[canuck]

Yup, if you need a heart transplant, but dont want to own up, I guess you might as well go for a manicure, a pedicure and a haircut to chase the clouds away. Still the same old tired heart beating slower, and your hands and feet are getting number from neglecting the real problem.

[Richard]

Sometimes I look at my baby granddaughters and it makes me sad sometimes thinking about the currant state things are in and if we keep going down the same path as we are,what is life going to hold for them,As a country ,but I also think that Detroit is in a unique position to set the standard for the future generations,can she stand up an say hey we know why and what happened but that is in the past it is now time to move forward a different way?

[rjk]

Why not just make people in the suburbs pay a special tax that would go to Detroit and as mentioned Pontiac?

Same difference.

[canuck]

Why not just make people in the suburbs pay a special tax that would go to Detroit and as mentioned Pontiac?

Same difference.

Not quite,

You will have the same bullshit complaints about those who give vs those on the receiving end.
No you wont get out of it that easy, shake that hand, bruvvah, shake it!

[Orthophonic]

Why not just make people in the suburbs pay a special tax that would go to Detroit and as mentioned Pontiac?

I like it! An abandonment tax - in perpetuity! For all those Detroit businesses that Ed McNamara lured into Livonia, Chrysler, the Detroit Popcorn Company and Shields Pizza. And for all the residents of East Detroit. You know, it just might work!

A more logistically/politically realistic proposal than the 21-mle radius circle might be to incorporate Wayne County as a mega Detroit. I don't think this is likely in this region but it has been done elsewhere. But it could be floated here to get it past the laugh test stage.

[professorscott]

Politically it's a nonstarter but the biggest issue is the Michigan Constitution won't allow for it. Look up "home rule". So if you like the idea, first amend the Michigan Constitution in a way that would permit such a thing.

Economically it makes more sense to have fewer communities in the tri-county area than the 100+ we have now, but good luck convincing people of that. For starters just see if you can get Hazel Park to merge with Madison Heights. The trouble you have there, multiply it by a hundred, that's what you're looking at.

So to summarize my point of view: it might be a good idea, but like most good ideas, the people of metro Detroit won't even allow a serious discussion of it to take place.

[Detroitnerd]

Politically it's a nonstarter but the biggest issue is the Michigan Constitution won't allow for it. Look up "home rule". So if you like the idea, first amend the Michigan Constitution in a way that would permit such a thing.

Economically it makes more sense to have fewer communities in the tri-county area than the 100+ we have now, but good luck convincing people of that. For starters just see if you can get Hazel Park to merge with Madison Heights. The trouble you have there, multiply it by a hundred, that's what you're looking at.

So to summarize my point of view: it might be a good idea, but like most good ideas, the people of metro Detroit won't even allow a serious discussion of it to take place.

Is there somewhere we can start this discussion? I was talking to a friend who lives in St. Clair Shores, which has THREE school districts. We all know [[wink wink) that the reason there are THREE school districts is race and, to a lesser extent, class. They fought it out there, and I understand that people just screamed and shouted and fussed and complained and -- in the end -- the status quo won. How many millions of dollars could be saved by having ONE school district for ONE city? But instead we're going to run things so that they're MORE EXPENSIVE because otherwise we might have to educate everybody properly?

This is just one small facet of the ongoing insanity.

Metro Detroit is like that family that has the kids in day care and grampa and gramma in assisted living -- and can't pay for them both. How many months before they figure out that grampa and gramma can watch the kids? Must we wait FOREVER?

[Hermod]

Is there somewhere we can start this discussion? I was talking to a friend who lives in St. Clair Shores, which has THREE school districts. We all know [[wink wink) that the reason there are THREE school districts is race and, to a lesser extent, class. They fought it out there, and I understand that people just screamed and shouted and fussed and complained and -- in the end -- the status quo won. How many millions of dollars could be saved by having ONE school district for ONE city? But instead we're going to run things so that they're MORE EXPENSIVE because otherwise we might have to educate everybody properly?

The school districts in Oakland and Macomb counties are the legacy of the rural school districts. As cities incorporated in the counties, the city boundaries did not match the school district boundaries. This took place long before race was an issue in the counties. Except for the large cities, in michigan, school districts and political entities are not the same thing.

[bahbay]

Detroitnerd I commend you and your cognitive abilities.

I was born on a farm [[yup, a farm) at 12 mile and Haggerty, raised in Northwest Detroit, educated at parochial and public schools and universities, and moved to California in 1973.

I have, in the last 5 years or so, been experiencing a novel fascination with the state of this region and the people there. I have visited occasionally during this time and have felt a sickening sinking feeling at the overwhelming nature of the problems and their magnitude.

Your theoretical proposal is one of those things that reminds me of the power of collaboration. It may never result in the end-all cure-all for the current dilemmas but it definitely served to stimulate my thinking. Even though I am a member of the above maligned "boomer gen", I value flexibility, teachability, and open-mindedness in regard to matters pertaining to our common welfare.

I am always looking for some excuse to justify returning to "_GREATER DETROIT_" and ideas along the line of yours are precisely those that just may facilitate that sort of thing. I hope I live to see it.

Good luck and best wishes to all forum contributers of all stripes and persuasions, Bob

[Al Publican]

Go with the areas of "savanna" that have returned to swaths of the eastside. Buy out the few families that are left between Lafayette Park and Conner and E. Warren and E. Jefferson. This area could either be a great urban nature preserve or an area for a return to our agrarian origins. No beau coup bullshit on my part by saying so.

[DetroitPlanner]

Kent County has proposed the first amagamation effort of this kind in the State. It should be interesting to see how that plays out here. Michigan unfortunately is a home-rule heavy state. This has resulted in far too many fifedoms that pit cities and suburbs against each other. Heck you even have suburbs beating each other for redevelopment of parcels into such wonders as Super Walmarts or Ikea.

This is due to a tax policies that forces new development in order to keep taxes inline with costs. Now that we have massive shrinkage in the region, the region can no longer prop up the state. Something radical needs to be explored because what we have now ain't working.

Thats why I don't want to poo poo ideas like solar roads. Last thing we need to do around here is slam any innovative thinkers that could also generate revenue and make us less dependant on imported oil.

[iheartthed]

A more logistically/politically realistic proposal than the 21-mle radius circle might be to incorporate Wayne County as a mega Detroit. I don't think this is likely in this region but it has been done elsewhere. But it could be floated here to get it past the laugh test stage.

This might actually help Detroit be more economically competitive. I've been thinking lately that Detroit should either consolidate with Wayne County, or break away from Wayne County, in order to eliminate the redundancy of services and taxes.

Major cities on the East Coast don't have that same bureaucratic redundancy, since in most cases the city is contiguous with the counties [[Philadelphia, Baltimore, New York, Washington). In the case of Boston, the city is almost nearly contiguous with it's county, with the county having only several municipalities autonomous from Boston [[Boston makes up roughly 6/7s of the Suffolk County population, and the three other municipalities the remaining seventh).

As for Detroit, clearly having the city break away from the county would be most palatable politically, but I doubt it is legal.

[gdogslim]

Out tax dollars have the clerks in DC churning out these statistics for you.

The United States Office of Management and Budget defines the Detroit–Warren–Livonia Metropolitan Statistical Area [[MSA) as the six counties of Lapeer, Livingston, Macomb, Oakland, St. Clair, and Wayne. As of the 2000 census, the MSA had a population of 4,441,551. The Census Bureau's 2009 estimate placed the population at 4,403,437, which ranks it as the eleventh-largest MSA.[1] The MSA covers an area of 3,913 square miles [[10,130 km2).
- Or http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/search/detroit/1

We all know this would never happen as all cities outside of Detroit do not want to be like Detroit.

[professorscott]

Amalgamation is what created what we now think of as New York City, which was briefly referred to as Greater New York at the time of its creation in 1898. In more recent times that process has been used heavily in the province of Ontario. I think, unarguably, it eliminates a lot of duplication and inefficiency but it is rarely popular at the time. After a pretty short time, people seem to get used to it.

In Michigan, as I said, though, the state constitution doesn't allow for it. The only way to pursue such an eminently sensible process would be to amend the constitution, and in order to do that you have to have the backing of a lot of the local politicians whose jobs would go away, so good luck.

In a con-con it might have been a productive discussion but the voters of Michigan for some reason think our state is structured correctly [[which astonishes me) and therefore they voted down the constitutional convention.

We may have to start thinking about armed revolt, here, gang Or at least duplicate whatever's been done in Tunisia and Egypt. But I'm willing to give the new guy a chance, briefly, first. Let's see if the Nerd In Chief can get the ship somewhat righted.

[Novine]

"They fought it out there, and I understand that people just screamed and shouted and fussed and complained and -- in the end -- the status quo won. How many millions of dollars could be saved by having ONE school district for ONE city? But instead we're going to run things so that they're MORE EXPENSIVE because otherwise we might have to educate everybody properly?"

The status quo "won" because that's what people voted to keep. I may not agree with their choice but when it was put to a vote, and it's been voted on several times in SCS, the people who came out and voted voted against merging their school districts. That's the price of allowing people to choose and vote. Sometimes they make "bad" choices that cost more money. But unless you're going to institute a benevolent dictatorship that forces them to consolidate and takes that choice away from the voters, that's the system we have for better or worse. For all the complaining that goes on about the redundancies and inefficiencies caused by all of the various units of government, voters almost never vote to get rid of them, even when given that choice.

[EL Jimbo]

I have a pretty radical idea for various parts of southern lower Michigan.

1. Merge the municipalities of Wayne, Oakland, and Macomb county into a "Greater Detroit"
2. merge the municipalities of Washtenaw County into a "Greater Ann Arbor".
3. Merge the municipalities of Ingham, Eaton, and Clinton counties into a "Greater Lansing
4. Merge Kent county into Grand Rapids
5. Merge Genessee into Flint
6. Merge each county that's part of the tri-city area near the thumb into their own countywide municipalities.
7. Same for Kalamazoo, Battle Creek, and Muskegon