Teachers and Unions are Hurting the Children and Obama Don't Care

[gdogslim]

Teachers in Michigan are having a fake sick out. How greedy can these tax subsidized clerks be. They are hiding behind children like terrorists to get what they want.

In Wisconsin teachers illegally go on strike. They don't care if other teachers get fired if they balance the budget and start chopping jobs.
Wisconsin democrat legislators are in hiding like little babies having a temper tantrum so they don't have to vote on the budget . They ran off like fugitives to Illinois. The state police are trying to find them.

President Obama’s old Organizing for America Group and the Democratic National Committee were playing a leading role in organizing the protests in Wisconsin and Ohio. This suggests Democrats are attempting to use the power of public sector unions to check the current momentum towards limited government.

The group is busing union Astroturf to the protests.

The Governor told Obama to buzz off and mind his own business.

The states are broke, the Fed govt is broke, and the unions don't want to pay their fair share.
I don't think their intimidation union bullying tactics are going to work this time.

[Detroitnerd]

Astroturf? You're soaking in it.

[ghettopalmetto]

The states are broke, the Fed govt is broke, and the unions don't want to pay their fair share.
I don't think their intimidation union bullying tactics are going to work this time.

Negotiating concessions from public employees has nothing to do with effectively dispensing with unions. Never mind that Freedom of Association is a Constitutionally-protected right. Scott Walker isn't just trying to gain concessions from union workers, but to severely limit the ability of the unions to bargain. Limiting the ability of the unions to bargain has negligible impact on Wisconsin's short-term budget outlook.

Even more glaring, however, is that Scott Walker created his own deficit. Wisconsin was projected to have a budget surplus this year. That is, until Scott Walker and the Republican Legislature enacted two business tax breaks and an unfunded expansion of health savings accounts. Now he wants to engage in some good ole-fashioned union-busting to pay for his political agenda?

[oladub]

GP, Where to start? I live in Wisconsin. Gov. Doyle [[D) and a Democratic legislature managed to make Wisconsin on of the ten most indebted states in the country. Gov. Doyle even created new taxes on nursing home and hospital patients to partly fund his expanded government programs. These are among the reasons Wisconsin voters turned both State houses, the Governor's office, and a US Senate seat over to Republicans.

Here is where I differ from Walker. I think that union workers have as much right to collectively bargain as rich people have to hire private lawyers and accountants to look after their interests. So I think it is wrong for Walker to take away that freedom of assembly right. That said, it is imperative that Wisconsin balances it's budget and gets out of debt as it doesn't have a printing press at it's disposal.

I do appreciate that Gov. Walker told the President, when the President butted
in, that Wisconsin was trying to repair it's budget as he should do the same with the federal budget.

The President had suggested that instead of ending collective bargaining, Wisconsin should perhaps do what the President did for federal employees. In Nov.2010, the President froze federal employee wages for two years. Using crude math, that would save more money than the much smaller amount of health care costs that Walker was trying to make labor eat. An additional benefit is that there was hardly a murmur from organized labor when Obama imposed a two year wage freeze. Maybe it's because labor bends over for Obama but it is something Walker might try instead of limiting collective bargaining. He would save more money and labor could still collectively bargain except for pay until the freeze was over.

There were a couple of side issues in Wisconsin. State Senate Democrats fled the State and turned up operating their government in exile in the Clock Tower Inn, with its Tilted Kilt Bar [[kind of like Hooters), in Rockford Illinois. This was to stay out of reach of the WI State Patrol which had been dispatched to summon them to perform their Senate duties. It was a bad move because Wisconsinites generally have the same contempt for anything Illinois [[sorry Wolverine) as Uppers do for anything Detroit. So to hide out in Illinois was like the saying about birds of a feather. They abandoned their post and identified themselves with Illinois in the eyes of Wisconsin.

Second, although state employees had cause to be angry about the collective bargaining issue, they handled it wrong by calling in sick to the point that Madison had to close it's schools for three days. Parents who had to make emergency arrangements for childcare or leave their kids untended all day are angry. Where I live, one middle school principal led a local rally on taxpayer time. I heard one parent who was furious because her teen was given a two hour pass to join the protests but instead went home for two hours. When he came back after two hours, he was cited with truancy because he hadn't attended the protest. The mother laid into whomever she talked to in the school until the school backed off on the truancy charge. Yesterday some schools closed around here because of 'fog' so teachers could protest without criticism. When it was -34 degrees here a month ago, the schools all were open. Considering that students sometimes have to collect glowing references from school teachers for their college and scholarship applications, issues of brown-nosing, unequal relationships, and coercion could be brought into play when teachers recruit and/or propagandize their students. Vouchers start looking pretty good. I read of one account of another parent who complained their sixth grade boy had come home saying he wished that he could kill Gov. Walker. At least the boy was paying attention in class.

[1KielsonDrive]

And the US is broke because of teachers, firefighters, auto workers, police, union workers, homeowners, government employees, etc??? Huh? Who started two wars??? Huh? What department is facing zero budget cuts??? Huh? Who's cruising through his depression with income raises and tax cuts??? Huh? Gdog, gee you're aptly named.

[ghettopalmetto]

GP, Where to start? I live in Wisconsin. Gov. Doyle [[D) and a Democratic legislature managed to make Wisconsin on of the ten most indebted states in the country. Gov. Doyle even created new taxes on nursing home and hospital patients to partly fund his expanded government programs. These are among the reasons Wisconsin voters turned both State houses, the Governor's office, and a US Senate seat over to Republicans.

Wisconsin was projected to have $120 billion in the bank this year. Is that what you mean by "one of the most indebted states"? Scott Walker and the GOP-controlled Legislature passed $117 billion in business tax cuts this year. http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/...os&Darling.pdf

Sound familiar? 2001? Bueller?

That ain't the unions, chief. That's blind fucking tax cutting ideology. And I, for one, do not believe public employees should have to bear the burden of Scott Walker being absolute shit at math.

[Papasito]

And the US is broke because of teachers, firefighters, auto workers, police, union workers, homeowners, government employees, etc??? Huh? Who started two wars??? Huh? What department is facing zero budget cuts??? Huh? Who's cruising through his depression with income raises and tax cuts??? Huh? Gdog, gee you're aptly named.

and foreign aid
and rediculous studies
and high speed rail that will end up needing maintained and subsidized
and a "nationwide wireless web"
and funding the armies of foreign nations [[ie egypt & others)
and "nationbuilding"
and bailing out companies that ran themselves into failure
and
and
and
and

[1KielsonDrive]

and foreign aid
and rediculous studies
and high speed rail that will end up needing maintained and subsidized
and a "nationwide wireless web"
and funding the armies of foreign nations [[ie egypt & others)
and "nationbuilding"
and bailing out companies that ran themselves into failure
and
and
and
and

AND I certainly agree with some of your ANDS.

[oladub]

Wisconsin was projected to have $120 billion in the bank this year. Is that what you mean by "one of the most indebted states"? Scott Walker and the GOP-controlled Legislature passed $117 billion in business tax cuts this year. http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/...os&Darling.pdf

Sound familiar? 2001? Bueller?

That ain't the unions, chief. That's blind fucking tax cutting ideology. And I, for one, do not believe public employees should have to bear the burden of Scott Walker being absolute shit at math.

Wisconsin faces a budget shortfall of $137 million for the current FY2011 and the prospect of a $3.6 billion hole in the coming two-year budget. Gov. Scott Walker proposed budget cuts to balance the state's budget, and a bill related to collective bargaining by unions triggered days of protests in the state capitol.

"Wisconsin has a total state debt of $17,971,519,547 when calculated by adding the total of outstanding debt, pension and OPEB UAAL’s, unemployment trust funds and the 2010 budget gap as of July 2010.

The state faces a $3.6 billion budget shortfall over the next 2 years.

Governor Scott Walker has said that he will not raise taxes[5] but will tackle the estimated $3.1 billion shortfall with the budget that he will present on Feb. 22, 2011"
http://sunshinereview.org/index.php/...n_state_budget
http://www.wpri.org/blog/?cat=26

Wisconsin has the tenth worst financial condition, number 41, of all states in a ranking compiled by Forbes.com. Wisconsin has a debt per capita of $1,429, unfunded pensions per capita of $16,418, and debt as a percentage of Gross State Product of 22 percent. Our state is classified as a debt disaster.

Forbes.com makes this observation:

“Of the 10 states in the worst financial condition, eight are among a total of 23 defined by Gallup as ‘solidly Democratic,’ meaning the Democrats enjoy an advantage of 10 percentage points or greater in party affiliation. These states include Illinois, New York, Connecticut, California, and New Jersey, as making up the bottom five, plus Massachusetts, Ohio and Wisconsin. ”http://www.franklinnow.com/blogs/communityblogs/87144437.html

[oldredfordette]

Oladub. A right wing blog, a free market blog and a teabagger wiki say the budget is in the red, the the state's fiscal governance website says it's in the black. Who do we believe?

[GOAT]

The two wars didn't bankrupt Michigan or the USA. In fact the Afhagnistan war is justified and it a right war; Iraq? A cluster-fuck that shouldn't have even been started [[and yes that cash could come in handy now).

The reason many states and the feds are broke is simple...THEY DON'T COLLECT ENOUGH TAXES! If the USA were to raise taxes a bit here and there like other countries have for 30+ years the feds would be rolling in the bread. Instead they look to the next election and don't want to rock the boat.

Which brings to me voter apathy. Every two years there are some kind of election for someone. I think the populace has voter burnout IMO. But I digress.

Raise taxes where needed [[consumption taxes are usually the proper ones to raise) and watch the money come in. The problem is every little shit will bitch that the gov't is taking an extra $500-600/year from them and no damn way should some gov't take their hard earned money. Then the same people will complain of no healthcare, poor roads, poor cities etc.

sorry but the USA has to join the rest of theplanet sooner rather than later because China will, once they grow their middle class, come knocking for thier $2 trillion loans and then the USA will be really fucked.

[oladub]

Oladub. A right wing blog, a free market blog and a teabagger wiki say the budget is in the red, the the state's fiscal governance website says it's in the black. Who do we believe?

Free market? Freedom? that must get in your craw.

Cited are links to The New Your Times and Forbes The Franklin article is almost a reprint of a Forbes article. The sunshinereviewarticle links its sources to -
↑ 1.0 1.1 1.2 1.3 New York Times "Democrats Missing, Wisconsin Vote on Cuts Is Delayed" Feb. 17, 2011
↑ State Budget Solutions “States Hide Trillions in Debt” July 22, 2010
↑ 3.0 3.1 USA Spending, State Guesstimated* Government Spending
↑ 4.0 4.1 4.2 4.3 4.4 4.5 4.6 4.7 4.8 MSNBC.com "Wis. union vote on hold after Democrats leave state" Feb. 17, 2011
I didn't even quote the wpri article which linked directly to a NY Tmes article and graph and quoted the national Association of State Budget Officers.

So I guess you are indirectly questioning the New York Times, Forbes, the Association of State Budget Officers, and MSNBC as being "free market and teabagger blogs and of less substance than a government document speaking about something else. I can't argue with that but will go with my sources. Besides, I am marginally involved with township government, am very acquanted with state highway financing in Wisconsin, and see a Wisconsin property tax bill every year. The tendency is for more and more bills to get loaded onto township and local school districts and for highway projects to be put off for yet another year because the State just doesn't have it any more.

Please reread GP's contribution. The State has $121M cash in it's checking account which is almost twice it's requirement. Then compare that amount of cash with the State's almost $18B of debt. The latter number is bigger than the former number. I realize that you are a Democrat and must be uncomfortable with numbers like millions, billions, and trillions that almost sound alike but trust me on that.

[ghettopalmetto]

Free market? Freedom? that must get in your craw.

Cited are links to The New Your Times and Forbes The Franklin article is almost a reprint of a Forbes article. The sunshinereviewarticle links its sources to -
↑ 1.0 1.1 1.2 1.3 New York Times "Democrats Missing, Wisconsin Vote on Cuts Is Delayed" Feb. 17, 2011
↑ State Budget Solutions “States Hide Trillions in Debt” July 22, 2010
↑ 3.0 3.1 USA Spending, State Guesstimated* Government Spending
↑ 4.0 4.1 4.2 4.3 4.4 4.5 4.6 4.7 4.8 MSNBC.com "Wis. union vote on hold after Democrats leave state" Feb. 17, 2011
I didn't even quote the wpri article which linked directly to a NY Tmes article and graph and quoted the national Association of State Budget Officers.

So I guess you are indirectly questioning the New York Times, Forbes, the Association of State Budget Officers, and MSNBC as being "free market and teabagger blogs and of less substance than a government document speaking about something else. I can't argue with that but will go with my sources. Besides, I am marginally involved with township government, am very acquanted with state highway financing in Wisconsin, and see a Wisconsin property tax bill every year. The tendency is for more and more bills to get loaded onto township and local school districts and for highway projects to be put off for yet another year because the State just doesn't have it any more.

Please reread GP's contribution. The State has $121M cash in it's checking account which is almost twice it's requirement. Then compare that amount of cash with the State's almost $18B of debt. The latter number is bigger than the former number. I realize that you are a Democrat and must be uncomfortable with numbers like millions, billions, and trillions that almost sound alike but trust me on that.

1. Where do the two business tax cuts and expansion of health savings accounts figure in? Those are affordable in the face of a deficit?

2. What do any of the budget numbers have to do with the right of workers to freely associate?

And I have to laugh that Oladub cites Forbes as some sort of objective, nonpartisan source. Apparently, he's never heard of Original Flat Taxer [[and former presidential candidate) Steve Forbes, who publishes that fishwrap-for-billionaires.

[Goose]

if unions are so great, why are individuals "forced" to join to gain employment

if they are so great, shouldn't individuals want to join, on their own free will???

shouldn't it just be a choice of the individual, to either join a union or negotiate their wage on their own with the employer?

why is joining a union a condition of employment? why is having part of your wage confiscated by the union and donated to political parties you may not support a condition of gaining employment???

if they are so great they wouldn't need forceable membership.....

[gdogslim]

Excellent post Goose!
No one can answer honestly because there is no honest answer.

[oladub]

1. Where do the two business tax cuts and expansion of health savings accounts figure in? Those are affordable in the face of a deficit?

2. What do any of the budget numbers have to do with the right of workers to freely associate?

And I have to laugh that Oladub cites Forbes as some sort of objective, nonpartisan source. Apparently, he's never heard of Original Flat Taxer [[and former presidential candidate) Steve Forbes, who publishes that fishwrap-for-billionaires.

1. The business breaks will obviously make state debts worse. I didn't bring that up or defend it.
2. Nothing. You are referring to my previous statement, "Here is where I differ from Walker. I think that union workers have as much right to collectively bargain as rich people have to hire private lawyers and accountants to look after their interests. So I think it is wrong for Walker to take away that freedom of assembly right. That said, it is imperative that Wisconsin balances it's budget and gets out of debt as it doesn't have a printing press at it's disposal." I support both the maintenance of bargaining rights and reducing excessive spending. You misread my comment.

I guess you are conceding that the NY Times and MSNBC are not tea bag media outlets. This is the Forbes statement in question, “Of the 10 states in the worst financial condition, eight are among a total of 23 defined by Gallup as ‘solidly Democratic,’ meaning the Democrats enjoy an advantage of 10 percentage points or greater in party affiliation. These states include Illinois, New York, Connecticut, California, and New Jersey, as making up the bottom five, plus Massachusetts, Ohio and Wisconsin.” How does Steve Forbes interest in flat taxes make this statement incorrect? Is everything that Steve Forbes says a lie? This was a response to your earlier disproven statement, "Wisconsin was projected to have $120 billion in the bank this year." Is that what you mean by "one of the most indebted states"? No it was not because you misread $120M as $120B in the article you submitted. 'Billion' is bigger than 'million'. Of course if you would rather switch the subject to Steve Forbes flat tax...

[gibran]

3 billion in aid to a country that supports oppression would go a long way to getting teachers here that support peace.

[littlebuddy]

Think how much money we would have if we didn't have to pay so much for a barrel of oil from those oppression free countries that sell it to us.

[gibran]

yes It is a shame that the US is enslaved to one country for oil and another for fear of Lobbiest.. you see LB your loyality to oppression is enslaving US to alienating billion of potential customers.. I would rather force regimes that accept monies from us to find peace ... you see LB your blind loyality is going to ultimately hurt Israel..if you love hold it accountabel and bringthat money home .. if we had better relations with all countries in the region we could have peace and Palestine as a traidng partner.. your method is killling people mine would give us revenue and ensure children a brighter future there and hear.. your choice..

[gdogslim]

I agree, we should cut off aid to ALL countries. Let them all kill each other, and let the chips fall.
Where is all the Bush oil money. I though oil was going to be cheaper because that is why Cheney invaded Iraq. Now the Chicoms have the oil contracts. Whats up with that.?

We could cut tax payer funding to the abortion mills and the public media machines. That would save money.

[gibran]

I wouldnt want anyone to kill themselves..just find peace.. thereis much more dollars [[not military related ) by increase sales and trade. w eneed public radio ..it is the reasonable alternative to Faux news ..corporate radio

[oldredfordette]

If you in possession of facts, you'd know that public money does not fund legal abortion and hasn't for many many years. Since you're regurgitating talking points from your owners, you can't be expected to know that.

150 Troops brought home from Afghanistan would help the "money crunch" in Wisconsin.

[gibran]

one high tech fighter,

[gdogslim]

If the teachers illegally striking don't return to work then it's time to fire them, just like when Reagan fired the air traffic controllers. The teachers need to sacrifice a little like everyone else.
Return federal spending to 2000 levels, start paying off the debt, then start cutting all the wasteful federal programs, let the states keep more of their tax money and pay for programs on a state level.

[oldredfordette]

If you could read, and it's a shame that you can't, you'd know that the teachers unions were willing too make concessions. What Walker is proposing is the elimination of collective bargaining rights, which [[if you could read you'd know this) is against the Constitution of the United States [[the right of assembly).

Go ahead and spout off some packages reponses now.