Why are we fighting over small beans? Or: Our money is in Afghanistan.

[socks_mahoney]

It seems to me like this forum has presented a lot of false choices in the past few days.

Paint a decrepit building or rehab it. Build a statue of Robocop or spend the money on schools and neighborhoods.

These are not the only choices we have. This nation has a lot of money, its just a matter of priorities. We can keep Robocop and start funding schools with all the money we send to Iraq/Afghanistan/Pakistan/Yemen that just goes BOOM.

Furthermore, if all these creative young people [[who mind you, really can't always get traditional jobs if they want to stay here) were given some of this money to work with instead of some mullahs in Pakistan.

When are Detroiters going to raise this question? "Theres no money for the schools" "Theres no money for viable mass transit" "Theres no money for a proper police force". Bullshit. The powers that be just don't want to give money to the groups that control this city. This is, in part, racism yes. But there are deeper forces at play. There's enough money to fix Detroit, if this nation's priorties were straight and it was given to the folks who have the energy passion and desire to remake this place. And lets face it, it needs remaking.

We need to move past this narrow focus of fighting over small pots of money. There's a lot of money out there, we just aren't getting it. We need to make these choices that policy makers and politicians have before them more clear. This community needs help, I'd say more than Afghanistan or Iraq ever did. Whats it gonna take?

[kelseystatic]

I agree. The amount spent on this war is staggering. Think of the billions we could be spending domestically! But you know if the war stopped, they would come up with something else to spend their money on. They magically always do. :/

[j to the jeremy]

This thread makes too much sense to be on DetroitYES. Shouldn't we be fighting over 50 year old race issues and local politics?

[[I agree with you wholeheartedly. If the US gov't was interested in anything other than corporate and military profiteering, our urban areas would look drastically different. )

[BrushStart]

Both these articles appeared today on the frontpage of the Detroit News:

http://www.detnews.com/article/20110...for-war-damage

http://www.detnews.com/article/20110...ot--Gates-says

The US military industrial complex is too big to be stopped because too many people have their hands in the money. War is big business and until the corporate-government cronyism is exposed and defeated, the US will continue to spend billions or trillions on destroying and subsequently rebuilding other countries while Americans' quality of life deteriorates to squalor.

[R8RBOB]

Both these articles appeared today on the frontpage of the Detroit News:

http://www.detnews.com/article/20110...for-war-damage

http://www.detnews.com/article/20110...ot--Gates-says

The US military industrial complex is too big to be stopped because too many people have their hands in the money. War is big business and until the corporate-government cronyism is exposed and defeated, the US will continue to spend billions or trillions on destroying and subsequently rebuilding other countries while Americans' quality of life deteriorates to squalor.

It always amazes me how people are ready to dump on Detroit [[Case in point: the Eminem/Chrysler commercial) and yet the same people wouldn't bat an eyelash when the Military–industrial complex hands over billions and billions of dollars to prop up a place like Iraq yet Detroit, one of the oldest cities in the United States is left to rot and mock so people can have something to point at and tease like kids do.

[1953]

I think it naive to suggest that local governance and foreign policy are either-or propositions. Clearly, we need strong local communities and a wise foreign policy.

We can debate how much money we should spend on foreign policy, but like any organization, the quality of our brand matters to our health and welfare. Think not? Remember 9/11? Oh yeah, that was people attacking us because they didn't like our brand.

The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq have fertilized seeds of humanity already present in the Middle East. By bringing freedom of expression, increasing equality of opportunity, and the prospect of individual liberty, we are helping to grow global freedom and improve the human experience. These may not be entirely economic benefits, but I don't doubt that they will one day bear economic fruits, also.

[Johnnny5]

.

We can debate how much money we should spend on foreign policy, but like any organization, the quality of our brand matters to our health and welfare. Think not? Remember 9/11? Oh yeah, that was people attacking us because they didn't like our brand.

Didn't Osama Bin Laden himself state that the 911 attacks were revenge for U.S actions in the Middle East? If not for our military exploits abroad 911 probably would have been just another day, not a day of tragedy. And since 911 led to both the Iraq War and the actions in Afganistan I think it is safe to assume our military actions in the Middle East will spawn the need for even more actions in the future. It's time to bring our troops, and our money home!

[BrushStart]

I think it naive to suggest that local governance and foreign policy are either-or propositions. Clearly, we need strong local communities and a wise foreign policy.

We can debate how much money we should spend on foreign policy, but like any organization, the quality of our brand matters to our health and welfare. Think not? Remember 9/11? Oh yeah, that was people attacking us because they didn't like our brand.

The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq have fertilized seeds of humanity already present in the Middle East. By bringing freedom of expression, increasing equality of opportunity, and the prospect of individual liberty, we are helping to grow global freedom and improve the human experience. These may not be entirely economic benefits, but I don't doubt that they will one day bear economic fruits, also.

I wish someone could show me one example of where our efforts in the middle east have improved anything. Last I checked, Iraq was still a mess, and as soon as we leave, it will regress into religious genocide/oppression, and tyranny by the ruling Shiites enforcing Sharia law. Afghanistan is a disaster. Pakistan is losing control of its borders because we've pushed the Taliban into their country. Iran is still crazy and dangerous and is still pursuing nuclear weapons. Saudi Arabia is still oppressing its people through fear and an iron fist. And then there's Egypt. Well, we all know the story there.

[1953]

How about two examples:

1. There is no longer a tyrannical dictator in charge of Iraq.

2. There is no longer a tyrannical regime in charge of Afghanistan.

1953

[Islandman]

Those two examples are oversimplistic, especially when you look at how both of those regimes were put into place. There's just no "money" in fixing Detroit. Imagine what just a month of the money spent Iraq/Afghanistan would do locally. The damn light rail would have been built already.

[Detroitnerd]

The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq have fertilized seeds of humanity already present in the Middle East. By bringing freedom of expression, increasing equality of opportunity, and the prospect of individual liberty, we are helping to grow global freedom and improve the human experience. These may not be entirely economic benefits, but I don't doubt that they will one day bear economic fruits, also.

Whaa.... ha... aaahahahaha...BWAAAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!

[1953]

@Islandman: I agree with you that investment in domestic urban infrastructure is too little, but there are many places that funding could come from, not just the funds for those wars [[that funding was mostly borrowed anyhow, so we didn't have the money to begin with!).

[1953]

@Detroitnerd: I'm not sure what you're getting at.

[Kevgoblue]

Hmmmmm.......let me think for a second. I get it.

[Funaho]

In the case of Iraq I seriously doubt it's ever going to work no matter how much we blow it up. Iraq wasn't even a country before 1920, when it was defined by committee out of the remains of the Ottoman empire. at best it's a loose association of various competing tribes, many of whom have hated each other for a thousand years, and expecting that to change virtually overnight is hopelessly optimistic.

Come to think of it, that paragraph at least in part describes the entire Middle East. It's not going to change until the people there change it themselves. The recent string of protests and revolts in Arab nations over the past two months has given me hope that that change may finally be coming, but it's going to be a long process.

[R8RBOB]

How about two examples:

1. There is no longer a tyrannical dictator in charge of Iraq.

2. There is no longer a tyrannical regime in charge of Afghanistan.

1953

And to think it costed the taxpayers $1,154,004,742,537
I can't wait to get my residual checks from Afghanistan and Iraq since my tax dollars were used to remove tyrannical leadership over there.

[1953]

Did you know a cheaper way to remove those dictators and free tens of millions of people? If so, you really should have shared it.

[1953]

P.S. Why do you deserve a residual for freeing people in oppressed countries?

[Detroitnerd]

Did you know a cheaper way to remove those dictators and free tens of millions of people? If so, you really should have shared it.

Yes. Egypt.

They overthrow our American-backed dictator.

We no longer have to prop him up with $1,300,000,000 per annum.

Done and done.

[socks_mahoney]

I can think of a lot of cheaper ways to overthrow a dictator. The people themselves can rebel [[Egypt). Or the CIA could can fund rebel factions already in the country [[Afghanistan in the 1980's). Or we can mind our own business. One of our largest trading partners [[China) is run by an authoritarian regime.

And yes, Afghanistan and Iraq still have dictatorships. Its called the US Millitary and whatever puppet they back.

But this off topic. The question is, how do we move the conversation from "schools or roads" to "wars or schools"? Why hasn't the conversation moved that way in Detroit?

I often sit through community forums in Detroit where city officials tell residents that they cant fix the lights because there "simply isnt enough money", or the schools have to be shut down because "there simply isnt enough money". Thats clearly not the case. There is a ton of money out there, aside from the money we spend on wars. There is a such thing as a graduated income tax---which more than 60% of folks in Michigan support [[see link to study here: http://www.media.wayne.edu/2010/10/0...upport-move-to).

The defunding of Detroit and of the public sector in general is not necessarily deliberate, but it is systematic. If we wish to fix these problems, we need to start pointing that out more. Especially in the public forum. Democracy happens in public spaces, not hidden in a voting booth. This is happening now in New Jersey and especially Wisconsin. As the details of Governor Snyder's budget rolls in and the effects become clear, we may have the same reactions in Michigan too.

[PaulieG63]

1. There is no longer a tyrannical dictator in charge of Iraq.

1953

I wonder how thats working out for the 2.1 MILLION that are now living in Jordan and Syria...most of which, will likely never be able to return!?!?

Of course, no need to wonder about the 300,000 - 600,000 [[depending on the source) dead Iraqi civilians.

[R8RBOB]

Did you know a cheaper way to remove those dictators and free tens of millions of people? If so, you really should have shared it.

It is amazing how people would throw out there how millions of people have benefited from our efforts to "liberate" them from their oppressed masters. Bullshit. It was about the money. If Detroit had an ocean of oil underneath the city, Detroit would have become the next Houston with every billionaire in the country setting up shop but Detroit is poor, Black and has limited resources so no one cared.

[Hermod]

But this off topic. The question is, how do we move the conversation from "schools or roads" to "wars or schools"? Why hasn't the conversation moved that way in Detroit?

I often sit through community forums in Detroit where city officials tell residents that they cant fix the lights because there "simply isnt enough money", or the schools have to be shut down because "there simply isnt enough money". Thats clearly not the case. There is a ton of money out there, aside from the money we spend on wars. There is a such thing as a graduated income tax---which more than 60% of folks in Michigan support [[see link to study here: http://www.media.wayne.edu/2010/10/0...upport-move-to).

The defunding of Detroit and of the public sector in general is not necessarily deliberate, but it is systematic. If we wish to fix these problems, we need to start pointing that out more. Especially in the public forum. Democracy happens in public spaces, not hidden in a voting booth. This is happening now in New Jersey and especially Wisconsin. As the details of Governor Snyder's budget rolls in and the effects become clear, we may have the same reactions in Michigan too.

I agree. Since the federal government will not tax the rich at a level higher than 35% and since state and local income taxes are deductible from federal income tax, the City of Detroit can enact a 91% city income tax. Then Detroit will just be rolling in money to fix the roads AND schools. Well, tthat money anyway which filters through the Detroit kleptocracy.

[gdogslim]

We need to increase taxes on the poor. That will bring in a few dollars.
We need to cut all Entitlement programs to zero. That will save hundreds of billions.
We need to kill all the Narco Dictators in the world, take all their drug money and give it to Detroit.

[Detroitnerd]

I can think of a lot of cheaper ways to overthrow a dictator. The people themselves can rebel [[Egypt). Or the CIA could can fund rebel factions already in the country [[Afghanistan in the 1980's). Or we can mind our own business. One of our largest trading partners [[China) is run by an authoritarian regime.

And yes, Afghanistan and Iraq still have dictatorships. Its called the US Millitary and whatever puppet they back.

But this off topic. The question is, how do we move the conversation from "schools or roads" to "wars or schools"? Why hasn't the conversation moved that way in Detroit?

I often sit through community forums in Detroit where city officials tell residents that they cant fix the lights because there "simply isnt enough money", or the schools have to be shut down because "there simply isnt enough money". Thats clearly not the case. There is a ton of money out there, aside from the money we spend on wars. There is a such thing as a graduated income tax---which more than 60% of folks in Michigan support [[see link to study here: http://www.media.wayne.edu/2010/10/0...upport-move-to).

The defunding of Detroit and of the public sector in general is not necessarily deliberate, but it is systematic. If we wish to fix these problems, we need to start pointing that out more. Especially in the public forum. Democracy happens in public spaces, not hidden in a voting booth. This is happening now in New Jersey and especially Wisconsin. As the details of Governor Snyder's budget rolls in and the effects become clear, we may have the same reactions in Michigan too.

True that. Notice how nobody ever says, "The Pentagon will go broke by 2013!"