First mile of paved road-How about we have the first mile of this-Solar Road!

[One Shot]

Was in an email today and I thought it was a very interesting idea! We should do something like this and be the first just like Woodward had the first paved mile. I like the light up part alerting of anyone in the roadway too! Seems like tough deal though to make it durable enough for roadway use and especially in our climate.
Still!
http://www.wimp.com/solarhighways

[DetroitPlanner]

Interesting, I don't have sound where I am so I quickly scanned it and am not sure what it all addressed.

If we could make it work here with the corrosion from snow salt and potholes it would definitely be a good thing. I am wondering would something like this be able to do things such as recharge cars like the Volt or Leaf allowing them to ride longer and making them less dependent on current electrical supplies from nuclear, coal or hydro?

[Detroitnerd]

Interesting, I don't have sound where I am so I quickly scanned it and am not sure what it all addressed.

If we could make it work here with the corrosion from snow salt and potholes it would definitely be a good thing. I am wondering would something like this be able to do things such as recharge cars like the Volt or Leaf allowing them to ride longer and making them less dependent on current electrical supplies from nuclear, coal or hydro?

The first mile of paved road was great because it was an innovation that people would actually use. Kind of difficult in tough times to get people behind an innovation that only a fraction of a percentage of people would be able to benefit from.

If we're serious about transportation solutions, and not just promoting palliatives, why not build ... um ... light rail?

[One Shot]

How about a solar powered train? Paneled tracks and cars!

[Detroitnerd]

How about a solar powered train? Paneled tracks and cars!

One-shot, you must not be familiar with the limits of solar power to propose a solar-powered train.

[Russix]

http://blog.cleantechies.com/2010/11...ered-motorway/

Not the same, but way more practical with current technology. I like how they built an entire sound barrier out of solar panels.

[Detroitnerd]

One thing I don't think people understand is that all these efforts to somehow have cars use some kind of free energy to get around is that it's only slightly less wasteful than running them on gas.

More than half the energy that goes into a car is that used for its creation and disposal.

Trying to sustain car-only systems, at massive expense, doesn't give people transit choices.

Coming up with cars that can travel farther at less expense only ensures that people have to travel more to get the necessities of life, dissipating the savings on energy with poor metro design.

Think of it this way: Cities are the best way to conserve energy because people have to travel less to get the daily needs of life. When you plug in a transportation medium that would be cheap, you will only create a system where people have to travel more, not less, and the less dense the population, the more energy you waste.

[DetroitPlanner]

Kind of difficult in tough times to get people behind an innovation that only a fraction of a percentage of people would be able to benefit from.

If we're serious about transportation solutions, and not just promoting palliatives, why not build ... um ... light rail?

No reason [[other than no funding for either) that we can't have both! Only a fraction will benefit from light rail too. As it is only about 1 percent of the trips in the area are made with transit. Light rail if it is a huge success will be able to bring it to two percent.

If you can harness the solar to recharge the car as it rides on the road, you can toll the road accordingly. Seems like a good zero carbon solution to me.

[ghettopalmetto]

No reason [[other than no funding for either) that we can't have both! Only a fraction will benefit from light rail too. As it is only about 1 percent of the trips in the area are made with transit. Light rail if it is a huge success will be able to bring it to two percent.

If you can harness the solar to recharge the car as it rides on the road, you can toll the road accordingly. Seems like a good zero carbon solution to me.

Nice bullshit line, considering that most of the Detroit metropolitan area has about ZERO transit service in the first place. You can't use something you don't have. In related news, nobody at Lafayette Coney Island orders pizza. Therefore, people hate pizza.

Think about that the next time you hop in the car to buy a gallon of milk.

[Detroitnerd]

No reason [[other than no funding for either) that we can't have both! Only a fraction will benefit from light rail too. As it is only about 1 percent of the trips in the area are made with transit. Light rail if it is a huge success will be able to bring it to two percent.

Um ... so nobody except the people who RIDE light rail will benefit? That's a very narrow view of light rail, DP.

Light rail benefits the people who ride it, because they will not need to use a car or park a car.

But it also benefits the businesses along the line, who cater to the riders.

It benefits the people who work at the businesses that serve the riders, and, through its multiplier effect, the people whose jobs depend on their income.

It benefits the people who work maintaining the line, and, through the multiplier effect, the people whose businesses rely on the income of those people.

It benefits the motorists who drive on I-75 and the Lodge to work, taking hundreds of cars off the road during peak times.

It benefits the motorists who drive on Cass and Second, John R and Brush, freeing up road space for them as well.

It benefits anybody who has an emergency, or needs a cab, as excess road traffic is taken off the road and point-to-point vehicular access is improved.

It benefits people who live in the area, as less auto exhaust improves health.

It will raise land values, spur investment and create jobs, all of which will be felt beyond the area and will provide a living to people who live all over.

It will encourage density, saving money and energy as people live closer together, money that can be used for other purposes.

Given your credentials, I wonder why you frame light rail in such narrow terms. In short, you should know better, shouldn't you?

If you can harness the solar to recharge the car as it rides on the road, you can toll the road accordingly. Seems like a good zero carbon solution to me.

Yeah, except that it's not a zero-carbon solution at all. It will still take the same energy to produce the vehicle and to dispose of it. It is regressive in that it will still encourage people to live far from where they shop, play and work. When everybody lives far from where they conduct their activities, you are ensuring they spend much of their time traveling, and you can't say all that wear and tear on photovoltaic "solar roads" won't translate into expenses. It will be more expensive to deliver services to people who live far from where they work.

I am sick and tired of people who posit unrealistic plans to extend the life of the design failure that is late 20th century America. You want to free up cars for what they're good at? Give people transportation choices and don't make them drive everywhere, and don't make them design every environment for these space-hogs.

[One Shot]

Gotta have ideas! And with all ideas come nay sayers. Some things work and some don't but we gotta try.

[DetroitPlanner]

Nerd, the taxes generated from personal vehicles support the building and operation of light rail. Let me know when you figure out how to build and operate it without that support. Without cars you will not have light rail unless you tax the hell out of the surrounding land owners to the point where using light rail is not attractive.

Redardless, if the road can become the solar grid it puts us in a much better position than we are in now. I watched the video, have you even bothered?

[ghettopalmetto]

Nerd, the taxes generated from personal vehicles support the building and operation of light rail.

They do? Where?

The solar road idea is bogus. It still doesn't solve the dilemma of driving everywhere for everything. You're still going to sink ever-increasing amounts of money into building ever-wider roads to accomodate an ever-growing number of vehicles. A planner should know such things.

[canuck]

Fred Flintstone and Barney Rubble had the best of both worlds; mobility and fitness, and they managed this without burning fossil fuel. They had no choice; the fossils were still brewing...

[Fnemecek]

If we could make it work here with the corrosion from snow salt and potholes it would definitely be a good thing.

I saw a demonstration of this awhile back. The road was designed in North Dakota, where they laugh at our definition of winter. It can handle anything that Michigan dishes out.

The roadway also has the option of installing a heating element under the outer most layer of panel, which enables it to melt away snow and ice.

I am wondering would something like this be able to do things such as recharge cars like the Volt or Leaf allowing them to ride longer and making them less dependent on current electrical supplies from nuclear, coal or hydro?

The technology isn't there yet for the road to charge an electric car while it's in motion - unless we make changes to every vehicle on said road. However, in the long range, that is definitely an option.

[wolverine]

The world knows we need roads so we have surfaces to walk on, and spatial boundaries for separating buildings. Really there's no point in debating cars. They represent but a thin fraction of world history, and roads certainly predate them. I repeat,This is not about cars, this about the vast amount of paved surfaces in this country that could be replaced with this technology. What are the alternatives? hay, grass, mud, gravel? Or should we continue to put down petroleum based products?

I don't know why DetroitYES can be so obtuse in these discussions. Forget irrelevant arguments like light rail and cars. There's a sidewalk in front of my building that's doing absolutely nothing right now. I think the concept has potential. Even if we lived in a world of 2 lane streets and highways the fact remains we've created vast expanses of artificial surfaces that could be put to work.

[Hermod]

One-shot, you must not be familiar with the limits of solar power to propose a solar-powered train.

"This is your conductor speaking. The train will be delayed two days on account of cloud cover."

[Detroitnerd]

If only I could tax stupid ideas, such as these, and I would have enough money to build a maglev from my home to work.

[DetroitPlanner]

They do? Where?

I don't pull this stuff out of my @$$! The Highway Trust Fund!

"The recurring potential for severe cutbacks in federal funding for state highway and transit programs combined with the significantly reduced purchasing power of motor fuels taxes is creating a near-term crisis for investment in our nation's transportation assets," said an AASHTO report issued last week. The organization's members include PennDOT and similar departments in the other 49 states."


Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11038...#ixzz1E4B8qmAf

Money for transit does not grow on trees. It is a user fee paid by those who buy gasoline. In theory those who buy gas are rewarded by those who use transit because that means fewer cars on the road. This however has not been the case over the last several years because the taxes collected are barely enough to keep transit and highway infrastructure going. With the addition of cars like the Leaf and Volt, this is dispairity will continue to grow.

Having a solar road will help provide the funding needed to keep the system in good shape.

[Detroitnerd]

The trust fund that's been going into debt building car-only projects across America? That's rich.

[Detroitnerd]

The world knows we need roads so we have surfaces to walk on, and spatial boundaries for separating buildings. Really there's no point in debating cars. They represent but a thin fraction of world history, and roads certainly predate them. I repeat,This is not about cars, this about the vast amount of paved surfaces in this country that could be replaced with this technology. What are the alternatives? hay, grass, mud, gravel? Or should we continue to put down petroleum based products?

I think it's because [[a) this idea sets off my highly sensitive bullshit detector, and [[b) I am sick and tired of the idea that we're going to keep our high-consumption lifestyle by finding some miraculous miracle fuel that will save us, and that America will go on and on building roads and freeways and moving farther out every year.

Not only is this all wishful thinking, every moment we delay -- building denser cities, installing serious, multi-modal mass transit, changing zoning, codes and laws to allow for energy-efficient cities, heck, even stuff like laying down bike lanes -- is another nail in our collective coffin.

Oh, shit, whatever. Go ahead and design your solar whatevertheyares. Have fun. Pay no attention to that DEAD END sign getting closer every year.

[ghettopalmetto]

I don't pull this stuff out of my @$$! The Highway Trust Fund!

"The recurring potential for severe cutbacks in federal funding for state highway and transit programs combined with the significantly reduced purchasing power of motor fuels taxes is creating a near-term crisis for investment in our nation's transportation assets," said an AASHTO report issued last week. The organization's members include PennDOT and similar departments in the other 49 states."


Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11038...#ixzz1E4B8qmAf

Money for transit does not grow on trees. It is a user fee paid by those who buy gasoline. In theory those who buy gas are rewarded by those who use transit because that means fewer cars on the road. This however has not been the case over the last several years because the taxes collected are barely enough to keep transit and highway infrastructure going. With the addition of cars like the Leaf and Volt, this is dispairity will continue to grow.

Having a solar road will help provide the funding needed to keep the system in good shape.

How about instead of adopting an expensive and unproven bullshit technology that will allow you to sit in twelve *solar-powered* lanes of congestion, maybe we can find a CHEAPER solution that already uses proven technology.

The highway trust fund has gone into debt the past three years, where it has been subsidized by the General Fund. And the HTF doesn't even cover externalities, like time wasted parked on the 15-lane I-75/85 Downtown Connector in Atlanta.

More pavement [[of any kind) won't fix a damned thing. We've built infrastructure over too wide an area, while diluting our tax base over an ever-wider geographic area. If we haven't learned that in the past 60 years, then our country DESERVES to go belly-up. Any future that assumes personal cars as the sole means of transportation is D.O.A. Get your head out of the 1950s, man!

[DetroitPlanner]

Get your head out of the 1950s, man!

Ha my head ain't in the 1950's. I point this stuff out because we need to change these policies. A solar road will help change them,and we can debate that. Incidentally, land use policies dictate transportation needs, not the other way around!

Change the land use and you can change the transportation mix. Streets are never going to go away. Buses will need to use them, bikes will need to use them, light rail will need to use them, IF cars go away. Roads pre-date cars and they will be around long after they are gone.

Roads that can be used to power stuff need to be explored not quashed because they will provide funding needed for other transportation improvements. You're the one assuming that I am talking about the car, but I am multimodal in my approach.

[ghettopalmetto]

Ha my head ain't in the 1950's. I point this stuff out because we need to change these policies. A solar road will help change them,and we can debate that. Incidentally, land use policies dictate transportation needs, not the other way around!

Change the land use and you can change the transportation mix. Streets are never going to go away. Buses will need to use them, bikes will need to use them, light rail will need to use them, IF cars go away. Roads pre-date cars and they will be around long after they are gone.

A "solar road" [[whatever that is) isn't a policy-shift. It's an enormous and unnecessary expense, at questionable gain [[if the shit even works). It still presumes that everyone will be transported by personal vehicle.

Land uses in most places, I'm sure you know, presume two goals:

1. That everyone will be transported by personal automobile, and
2. The primary objective is to move as many cars as quickly as possible.

This paradigm is what has to change. Until it does, we'll be stuck with nothing but cul-de-sacs, collector roads, and cheap-ass buildings awash in a sea of parking lots sized for the Saturday-before-Christmas.

You don't need solar-powered pedestrians, bicycles, or transit vehicles to create the kind of communities that we had prior to World War II, and the so-called Greatest Generation made illegal through zoning.

[DetroitPlanner]

You never bothered to watch the video have you? Can you stick to the topic of the solar road?