White House: $53 billion for high speed rail system!

**Whitehouse** · February-08-11, 04:50 PM

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_820248.html

Good news!

**iheartthed** · February-08-11, 04:54 PM

As one official familiar with the plans said, in the Midwest alone, plans are for a line that would connect Chicago, Detroit, parts of Iowa, St. Louis and down to Kansas City.

I hope that's true.

**mwilbert** · February-08-11, 05:05 PM

I don't doubt it is true, but only time will tell if it gets through Congress in that form, if at all.

**DetroitPlanner** · February-08-11, 05:08 PM

Detroit needs a connection to Toledo too!

To get to Philly by Amtrak you need to first go to Chicago from here, or get a ride down to T-town.

Getting it through a congress full of tea partiers will be a challenge.

**Baselinepunk** · February-08-11, 05:13 PM

I hope this turns out in our favor, but I'll believe it when I see it.

**esp1986** · February-08-11, 05:40 PM

1) Probably won't pass through the House... unfortunately.
2) Still doesn't eliminate the age old problem of access to the east coast, as mentioned by DP, via Toledo.

I spend A LOT of my time working in Toledo these days, and any connection to Detroit would get my use a couple times a week...

In this way, Detroit compares to Chicago pretty well. Chicago's South Shore Line runs from Downtown all the way to Gary Indiana and on to South Bend. A similar line from Detroit would run through Monroe and onto Toledo. It is a real shame that Detroit does not even have any commuter lines. It is no accident that Amtrak posted some of their biggest ridership gains this year. With gas prices headed toward $4 a gallon this year and toward $5 and $6 in the next few years, Trains will slowly gain even more ridership for short and mid-range journeys, as flying is impacted by gasoline as much as driving.

Speaking of commuter lines, has anyone heard anything about the $130M in federal money to improve the Detroit to Ann Arbor line for the proposed commuter rail? Last I heard was the state legislature didn't want to commit their $20M to the project...

**canuck** · February-08-11, 05:53 PM

DP

Getting it through a congress full of tea partiers will be a challenge.

They should stop smoking that stuff.

**Rocko** · February-08-11, 05:53 PM

There is a convenient connecting bus which departs from several Michigan Amtrak stations which goes to Central Union Station in Toledo to connect with eastbound trains: the Capitol Limited & Lake Shore Limited. A return bus also leaves Toledo for Michigan after both westbound trains arrive in the early morning. However, you must hold a ticket for one of those routes to use the bus. The bus stops at the Amtrak stations in East Lansing, Ann Arbor, Dearborn, and Detroit on the way to Toleeeeeeedo. I'll actually be taking that connecting bus this coming week on my way back from Connecticut to Ann Arbor.

I hope the money keeps flowing. It's funny, for once rail and Amtrak are adequately funded, and they're showing real gains in ridership, ride quality, and satisfaction. Amazing. Yes, gas prices play a role in encouraging travels to look elsewhere, but with more capacity comes room to carry those riders, etc.

**esp1986** · February-08-11, 06:13 PM

Originally Posted by Rocko

There is a convenient connecting bus which departs from several Michigan Amtrak stations which goes to Central Union Station in Toledo to connect with eastbound trains: the Capitol Limited & Lake Shore Limited. A return bus also leaves Toledo for Michigan after both westbound trains arrive in the early morning. However, you must hold a ticket for one of those routes to use the bus. The bus stops at the Amtrak stations in East Lansing, Ann Arbor, Dearborn, and Detroit on the way to Toleeeeeeedo. I'll actually be taking that connecting bus this coming week on my way back from Connecticut to Ann Arbor.

I hope the money keeps flowing. It's funny, for once rail and Amtrak are adequately funded, and they're showing real gains in ridership, ride quality, and satisfaction. Amazing. Yes, gas prices play a role in encouraging travels to look elsewhere, but with more capacity comes room to carry those riders, etc.

Unfortunately, subsidy cuts for Amtrak is one of the hot-buttons right now in Congress... with transit cuts proposed there, it is hard to believe we will see any new infrastructure anywhere else. Out of all of the transportation modes, rail is the least government subsidized of them all... States spend billions each year maintaining roads, billions are spent each year policing the airline industry and it's passengers. Every mode of transportation is government subsidized, the only difference it how.

**EastsideQT** · February-08-11, 06:23 PM

Forget about a multi-state rail that's what Amtrak is for.....let's concentrate on the one we need in Detroit. Every time they turn a small project into a huge one nothing ever gets done.

NorthEndere · February-08-11, 08:16 PM

This doesn't mean anything if it doesn't make it pass this Republican-controlled House, and I doubt it will, even with as popular as infrastructure investment has been popular with Republicans in the not-too-distant past.

BTW, it's absolutely ridiculous that Detroit doesn't have a direct connection to the east. A commuter bus is not enough, especially when you consider the potential amount of traffic you'd have if they'd open a rail line between Detroit and Toledo.

**oladub** · February-08-11, 08:24 PM

Trains are cool but the article didn't cite a funding source. We could cut some other spending elsewhere or raise taxes to pay for this. Other possible funding sources would be to borrow the money from China or have the Federal Reserve ramp up it's printing press like Zimbabwe or the Weimar Republic did. The latter two solutions enable our kids to pay for our trains.

**ghettopalmetto** · February-08-11, 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by oladub

Trains are cool but the article didn't cite a funding source. We could cut some other spending elsewhere or raise taxes to pay for this. Other possible funding sources would be to borrow the money from China or have the Federal Reserve ramp up it's printing press like Zimbabwe or the Weimar Republic did. The latter two solutions enable our kids to pay for our trains.

Why don't you post this same paragraph every time MDOT proposes a new highway widening, or an interchange reconstruction that costs several hundred million dollars? It's not like the USDOT hasn't dipped into General Revenues the past three years to keep the Highway Trust Fund afloat.

Unfortunately for Michigan, a connection to the East is a non-starter. Gov. John Kasich won't let Ohio come out to play.

**esp1986** · February-08-11, 08:55 PM

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

Unfortunately for Michigan, a connection to the East is a non-starter. Gov. John Kasich won't let Ohio come out to play.

Nail hit on head.

**ghettopalmetto** · February-08-11, 09:16 PM

Yeah, Kasich said Ohio can't afford $17 million a year for the 3C Rail project. Something about needing those pennies for a $1 BILLION interchange reconstruction in downtown Columbus. And a $400 million bridge in Cleveland. And maybe widening I-71 some more, you know, for shits and giggles.

**mwilbert** · February-08-11, 10:28 PM

Even when they proposed high-speed rail for Ohio, it wouldn't have run to the east coast.

**esp1986** · February-08-11, 11:31 PM

Originally Posted by mwilbert

Even when they proposed high-speed rail for Ohio, it wouldn't have run to the east coast.

Let's get something straight... high speed rail was never proposed for Ohio. The 3C line was merely an interurban line connecting the 3 largest cities in Ohio followed by a connection of some sort to Toledo. High speed rail, by definition travels at speeds well above 150mph. Most lines in this country don't operate above 110mph. Amtrak Acela is the closest thing to true high speed rail, topping out at 150mph, the fastest train in North America. The line from LA to San Francisco, to cost $8B will also be a 'high-speed' line. So while they didn't have a high-speed line proposed, actually it was commonly referred to as snail-rail, they were at least starting somewhere.

**Rocko** · February-08-11, 11:59 PM

I wasn't trying to say that the connecting bus to Toledo from Michigan was a substitute for a train connecting those two cities....it certainly is not. There SHOULD be a train which does connect those two, if not extending farther to Cleveland. I was just trying to point out that if you do want to go east, you don't necessarily need to go to Toledo or another "near the border" town in Ohio in your own car to get on one of these trains.

**Gistok** · February-09-11, 01:28 AM

Originally Posted by oladub

Trains are cool but the article didn't cite a funding source. We could cut some other spending elsewhere or raise taxes to pay for this. Other possible funding sources would be to borrow the money from China or have the Federal Reserve ramp up it's printing press like Zimbabwe or the Weimar Republic did. The latter two solutions enable our kids to pay for our trains.

Funny you mentioned the Weimar Republic... I have a 1923 $100 Billion Reichsmark German Weimar Republic banknote [[$100 Milliarden in German), but I haven't seen any $100 Billion Dollar Federal Reserve bills printed as of yet...[[unfortunately nothing over $100) but do keep making your weak analogies....

I also guess that you're equating Barack Obama with Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe....

**oladub** · February-09-11, 02:48 AM

Originally Posted by Gistok

Funny you mentioned the Weimar Republic... I have a 1923 $100 Billion Reichsmark German Weimar Republic banknote [[$100 Milliarden in German), but I haven't seen any $100 Billion Dollar Federal Reserve bills printed as of yet...[[unfortunately nothing over $100) but do keep making your weak analogies....

I also guess that you're equating Barack Obama with Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe....

Not yet but the dollar has lost 95% of it's spending value since 1916. That's a crude measurement but gas cost 32 cents a gallon and Ford Mustangs sold for $2,499 in 1969 as I recall. Grain prices have increased spectacularly this year. Drip, drip... why that's our dollar eroding. Just wait until the $1T the Treasury let loose and the $2T the fed let loose hit the streets to ratchet up the demand part of supply/demand.

You're right, I am equating Obama's policies with Robert Mugabe's and Kaiser Wilhelm's. You get a passing grade for mentioning one of them. For extra credit, where is the $53B coming from? The choices again are higher taxes, eliminating something else from the budget, borrowing from China, or by running the Fed's magic money printing machine.

**Zacha341** · February-09-11, 06:59 AM

Weee... I am looking forward to the fact that soon I'll be 'driven' [[sic) out of having the fiscal means to drive a private vehicle. I sooooo look forward to er' the 'option' of mass transportation due to financial constraints! Yippeee!

Originally Posted by esp1986

1)...With gas prices headed toward $4 a gallon this year and toward $5 and $6 in the next few years, Trains will slowly gain even more ridership for short and mid-range journeys, as flying is impacted by gasoline as much as driving.

Speaking of commuter lines, has anyone heard anything about the $130M in federal money to improve the Detroit to Ann Arbor line for the proposed commuter rail? Last I heard was the state legislature didn't want to commit their $20M to the project...

**Richard** · February-09-11, 07:03 AM

http://www.semcog.org/A2D2January2011Update.aspx

Project Specifics
The current project is to provide commuter rail service in the Detroit-Ann Arbor corridor with stops in Ann Arbor, Ypsilanti, Detroit Metropolitan Airport, Dearborn, and Detroit. The project takes advantage of existing infrastructure where possible and requires adding new station stops in Ypsilanti and at Detroit Metro Airport.

The project is being managed by SEMCOG along with partners that include representatives of all communities in the corridor, Wayne and Washtenaw County officials, state and federal representatives, the Michigan Department of Transportation, the local transit operators [[AATA, DDOT, and SMART), Amtrak, representatives of Norfolk Southern [[NS) and Canadian National [[CN) Railroads, and members of the business community.

Currently, the freight railroads are analyzing capacity on the proposed passenger rail line and will be providing an estimate of the capital costs that will be needed to allow passenger and freight trains to safely co-exist with reliable service in the same corridor. Other activities currently underway include identifying equipment costs, developing ridership estimates, building potential service schedules, and exploring funding options. To learn more about the project, please view the project updates.

Funding
The Michigan Department of Transportation was awarded Round Two ARRA funding totaling $160 million. From that funding, $150 million will purchase the rail line between Kalamazoo and Dearborn; because that line will now be state-owned, we won’t have to negotiate for access rights. Also, $7 million will be used for the west Detroit connection track project that will result in reduced travel time and a more efficient line. The remaining $3 million will be used for additional planning and engineering. These high-speed rail investments will result in a direct benefit to the proposed commuter rail service and reduce the funding necessary to implement passenger service.

**Zacha341** · February-09-11, 07:05 AM

Yes, our devaluing dollar is an issue that will continue to impact Americans withstanding party loyalty. The 'kick the can down the road' policies of spending is going to require its own special BALLOON payment which will not be solved by the usual partisan rubric/ rhetoric.

Originally Posted by oladub

Not yet but the dollar has lost 95% of it's spending value since 1916. That's a crude measurement but gas cost 32 cents a gallon and Ford Mustangs sold for $2,499 in 1969 as I recall. Grain prices have increased spectacularly this year. Drip, drip... why that's our dollar eroding. Just wait until the $1T the Treasury let loose and the $2T the fed let loose hit the streets to ratchet up the demand part of supply/demand.

You're right, I am equating Obama's policies with Robert Mugabe's and Kaiser Wilhelm's. You get a passing grade for mentioning one of them. For extra credit, where is the $53B coming from? The choices again are higher taxes, eliminating something else from the budget, borrowing from China, or by running the Fed's magic money printing machine.

**ghettopalmetto** · February-09-11, 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by esp1986

Let's get something straight... high speed rail was never proposed for Ohio. The 3C line was merely an interurban line connecting the 3 largest cities in Ohio followed by a connection of some sort to Toledo. High speed rail, by definition travels at speeds well above 150mph. Most lines in this country don't operate above 110mph. Amtrak Acela is the closest thing to true high speed rail, topping out at 150mph, the fastest train in North America. The line from LA to San Francisco, to cost $8B will also be a 'high-speed' line. So while they didn't have a high-speed line proposed, actually it was commonly referred to as snail-rail, they were at least starting somewhere.

There is a flaw in the thinking that you can just scrap "ordinary" train service and hold out for high speed rail instead. Nowhere in the world has any nation ever constructed a high-speed line "from scratch", without first having a ridership base on existing service.

Even looking at the work being done in the United States--the Northeast Corridor, Illinois, North Carolina, Virginia, California, Florida, the Pacific Northwest--all of these designated high-speed corridors first started with "slow" service and were upgraded over time. I still say that a 79 mph hour train between Cleveland and Cincinnati is a hell of a lot better than the existing train--that is to say, NONE. The French had existing "slow" train service before TGV. The Germans had existing "slow" train service before ICE. You don't just up and build a 220 mph hour train and *hope* that people show up to ride it. That strategy would be like building the Interstate Highway System in the 19th century, when the existing roads were paved with dirt and people were riding in carriages.

How does this affect Michigan, and getting to the East Coast? Because the 3C, serving over 6 million people, was the key to establishing regular train service in Ohio. Without it, upgrading the route between Chicago/Toledo/Cleveland doesn't make nearly as much sense.

**iheartthed** · February-09-11, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

Unfortunately for Michigan, a connection to the East is a non-starter. Gov. John Kasich won't let Ohio come out to play.

Maybe they can connect Detroit to the East through upstate New York. That might even make more sense [[for Detroit). If Canada builds a high speed line it will probably go from Detroit/Windsor through Toronto, Ottawa and terminate in Montreal. A high speed line from the east could go through Buffalo and cut across Ontario, like the New York Central RR once did.