What will make people stay?

[izzyindetroit]

This is a two part thread. First, I would like to share this article from the Lansing State Journal.

"He cited a 2006 study prepared for the group, CEOs for Cities, showing that two-thirds of college graduates decided where they wanted to live first and looked for work after."

"I don't have a car here," she said. "I don't need a car. I can take public transit everywhere and I really like that. I have everything I need right here. If Michigan had that, it would be a different story."

I think that there is an overall opinion or view in Michigan that Detroit doesn't offer these kind of opportunities. This would also include many cities throughout the state as well, such as, Ann Arbor, Grand Rapids, Ferndale, Royal Oak, Dearborn, and a handful of others.

The other part of the tread is a plug for a benefit sponsored by GLUE coming up this Thursday from 5-10.

Facebook event page.

Event Flyer

[GREENTROIT]

The public transportation thing is sorta funny for me. I love driving my car, and the opportunity to drive a car is a big reason I like Detroit, and one of many reasons I would NEVER live in a city like Chicago or New York. I can bike to work and do in the summer [[its only a few miles anyway), but there's something about cruising 80 mph on the freeway when you want to. Try doing that in Chi or NY... will never happen.

[cloud_wall]

"He cited a 2006 study prepared for the group, CEOs for Cities, showing that two-thirds of college graduates decided where they wanted to live first and looked for work after."

This is hard thing to wrap one's head around [[and a pretty sad reflection on the employment-status of our college graduates). The chicken and egg debate with respect to the "Cool Cities" vs Jobs thing is not settled with that statistic. Reasons to move to one city over another just might include jobs, even if you don't already have a job in hand.

But it's a good reason to continue to spread the good word about midtown, downtown, Hamtramck, Ferndale, RO and other fun places for young people to live around here. I moved here for a job and have been pleasantly surprised by all the great places to live and visit in the area.

[DetroitDad]

The public transportation thing is sorta funny for me. I love driving my car, and the opportunity to drive a car is a big reason I like Detroit, and one of many reasons I would NEVER live in a city like Chicago or New York. I can bike to work and do in the summer [[its only a few miles anyway), but there's something about cruising 80 mph on the freeway when you want to. Try doing that in Chi or NY... will never happen.

Yeah, there are plenty of people in this city who like that they can just break laws here with no consequence.

[GREENTROIT]

Yeah, there are plenty of people in this city who like that they can just break laws here with no consequence.

Hahahaha! I'm sorry that speeding 10 mph over the limit is so extreme and uncouth to you! Are you really so uptight that you would label me as a reckless law-breaker for speeding!?

Here's an idea for you: Lighten up dude. And just so you know I'm gonna hit I-96 and reach 90mph just for you today!

[detmich]

Hahahaha! I'm sorry that speeding 10 mph over the limit is so extreme and uncouth to you! Are you really so uptight that you would label me as a reckless law-breaker for speeding!?

Here's an idea for you: Lighten up dude. And just so you know I'm gonna hit I-96 and reach 90mph just for you today!

The speed limit in Detroit city limits is 70 MPH ? Am I missing something?

[GREENTROIT]

Noo you aren't missing anything. You're right, the speed limits within the city are mostly 65, depending on which freeway you're on. My 70 mph example was based on the region, as the limits are 70 pretty much immediately outside the city on all sides.

Ironically, I slow down when I get to the suburbs, as they usually have local police patrolling the roads. I drive faster in the city, because only State Troopers patrol and they are sparse... but also unforgiving so it's a risk...

Anyway this thread has taken a far turn off course...

[biketech]

I'm moving to Bicycle City

http://www.bicyclecity.com/index.php

[iheartthed]

The speed limit in Detroit city limits is 70 MPH ? Am I missing something?

Yes, it is.

[iheartthed]

The public transportation thing is sorta funny for me. I love driving my car, and the opportunity to drive a car is a big reason I like Detroit, and one of many reasons I would NEVER live in a city like Chicago or New York. I can bike to work and do in the summer [[its only a few miles anyway), but there's something about cruising 80 mph on the freeway when you want to. Try doing that in Chi or NY... will never happen.

You can do that in New York and Chicago. They call it the suburbs. I think it's a symptom of the problem that you can actually find the room to cruise along at 80 MPH in Detroit whenever you want...

[DetroitDad]

Hahahaha! I'm sorry that speeding 10 mph over the limit is so extreme and uncouth to you! Are you really so uptight that you would label me as a reckless law-breaker for speeding!?

Here's an idea for you: Lighten up dude. And just so you know I'm gonna hit I-96 and reach 90mph just for you today!

It wouldn't be an issue if crime wasn't an issue in Detroit. The broken window theory applies to crime and disorderly conduct too, as explained here;

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/198203/broken-windows

Fix the small problems and you'll have a Hell of a lot less big problems.

[jjw]

I used to like driving a lot also when I was younger. It represented freedom for me; getting away from the folks-that kind of thing. How far can I get before I have to return? Now, I just consider it work and try not to choose the car option whenever I don't have to. Roads are more crowded today. Inevitably, cruising will lead you to a boring-ass freeway or pass strip malls. Why bother? Let's see, driving fast on an empty freeway in Detroit area or walking, biking NYC or Chicago? I'll take the later.

[wolverine]

I'm am actually surprised how big access to mass transit/good bike routes became a big factor in my decision to move to a city with such amenities. I own a car and I'm currently living in Ann Arbor, and just waiting for the lease to expire. I rarely use it. What's the point when numerous restaurants and businesses are accessible within a 3 block walk in a rich urban environment.

Since I just finished grad school, it's time I get out of Ann Arbor, but I've made my decision that I want to live in a city that has a similar type of environment. That's why Chicago is attractive to me. There are tons of neighborhoods to choose from that have continuous streetwalls of stores, restaurants, and grocery stores that would be within walking distance and close to mass transit.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=168623

I have many friends from undergrad who have moved out there two years ago and have verified that this is a good lifestyle, and they still do own a car and use it when they need it.


If I do get a better job offer in Michigan though, I am willing to take it. But I really question how long I'd continue to stick around.

[lilpup]

Wolverine, if you could find a job in Ann Arbor would you stay?

[wolverine]

I would definitely stay in Ann Arbor. After all, A2 is what led me to this lifestyle. But I've found few available jobs here in my field. I think what would really seal the deal, is commuter rail between Detroit and A2. Being able to live in Ann Arbor and take the train to Detroit would be convenient.

[iheartthed]

I would definitely stay in Ann Arbor. After all, A2 is what led me to this lifestyle. But I've found few available jobs here in my field. I think what would really seal the deal, is commuter rail between Detroit and A2. Being able to live in Ann Arbor and take the train to Detroit would be convenient.

Ann Arbor is walkable by Michigan standards, but trust me when I say that you can do a lot better. You'll go to Boston, NYC, DC, Chicago, San Francisco or even Philly and won't give Ann Arbor a second thought.

[Trainman]

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/Bus/

24 hour 7 day a week SMART service to downtown Detroit, metro airport, Pontiac and Mount Clemens with state reveunue sharing to remove 40,000 cars per day from crowded rush hour freeways would make people stay.

The plan is Bring Back SMART to Livonia and southeast Michigan by next August 2010 when the property tax millage expires.

[wolverine]

Oh no, back to that?

Please take the moment to study triple convergence if you are going to bring up congestion.

Ann Arbor is walkable by Michigan standards, but trust me when I say that you can do a lot better. You'll go to Boston, NYC, DC, Chicago, San Francisco or even Philly and won't give Ann Arbor a second thought.

I understand that, and I've visited all these places multiple times in the past couple of years, but at the moment, Ann Arbor is about as close as I can get in Michigan

[Paris_of_the_Midwest]

That's not necessarily true. Ferndale and Royal Oak are both very walkable neighborhoods with lots of young professionals. If you like Ann Arbor you should look at both of those places. Both are probably closer to the model of neighborhood that many of the "new urbanists" here on the forum advocate for.

Having some great "urban" suburbs like Ferndale and Royal Oak don't make up for our lack of strong and vibrant true city neighborhoods but they're both pretty cool places in their own right.

[lilpup]

I do believe the issue is jobs first, lifestyle second. The whole idea of getting young people to stay to revitalize the local economy is somewhat specious anyway. Few come right out of school and start a company, at least in the highest paying tech sectors. The debt burden for school is increasingly unbearable and the real world field experience usually hasn't been acquired yet.

The real questions are: What is needed here, how can it be profitable, and how can we get it started?

The obvious answers are:
- charter or private schools if the public ones can't get it right
- basic grocery stores, or better yet neighborhood markets that aren't just liquor/cig/lotto/junk food stores
- ancillary stores for clothing, household fundamentals, books, etc.

Is it possible to get these started in the city and get residents to spend their money closer to home? One could draw a parallel using the US trade deficit and its effect and Detroit and the monetary outflow of its residents.

[MIRepublic]

A few important things to take into account from a recent Free Press article on this subject:

Fewer college grads moving to Michigan, demographer finds

BY CHRIS CHRISTOFF • FREE PRESS LANSING BUREAU CHIEF • April 26, 2009

Michigan's "brain drain" isn't as bad as it might seem.

That's the opinion of state demographer Ken Darga, the state's leading authority on Michigan's population by the numbers. He said Michigan has retained college graduates better than most states, even as the recession worsened.

But since 2004, far fewer young college grads from other states have moved to Michigan than in previous years, creating a net loss. The number of those leaving Michigan actually has leveled off.

"The brain drain is a very serious concern," Darga said. "The big misunderstanding is that it's a chronic problem. It's not a chronic problem. It's a fairly recent development."

Darga said for every person counted in the census the state receives about $1,000 in federal aid. He once found that Macomb County's population was undercounted by 50,000 because of a census mix-up over ZIP codes. Now, Darga wants to prove that the U.S. Census undercounts Michigan residents who live part of the year in other states, such as snowbirds who spend winters in southern states.

Darga said other states will become less attractive to college graduates as their unemployment rates rise. He said about 60% of young college graduates born in Michigan still live here.

When foreign-born residents with college degrees are counted, Michigan looks even better. [[Michigan has a higher percentage of foreign-born residents with college degrees than the national average.)

[lilpup]

A few important things to take into account from a recent Free Press article on this subject:

When foreign-born residents with college degrees are counted, Michigan looks even better. [[Michigan has a higher percentage of foreign-born residents with college degrees than the national average.)

R&D - engineering and sciences - H1Bs - strongly concentrated in SE Michigan

Last Friday NPR's Science Friday show had Presidential Science Advisor John Holdren, head of the Office of Science and Technology Policy, on for an hour. An irate Detroit area woman called in wanting to know how anyone can be encouraging their kids to go into the sciences these days, especially females who still have to deal with quite a bit of old boy networking. The host, Ira Flatow, followed up with a statistic that said there are three scientists and engineers in the US right now for every one job in those fields. Yet we have all the politicians yapping about a lack of scientists and engineers - they don't recognize [[or don't want to admit) that there are no jobs available [[thanks primarily to offshoring but also H1Bs).

[sumas]

One word, JOBS. It is nice to talk about livability. My son has lived all over the country. He loved Chicago the most. Income is a key factor.

He is back in the D. Is making a good income with bennefits. He bought a home three blocks away. Momma is happy.

[iheartthed]

I'm part of that mid-20s college educated demographic group, and virtually every one of my college educated friends of similar age have left Michigan. Many went to Chicago, or to the denser cities on the East Coast because that is where they wanted to live; others went to chase jobs in the Sun Belt. I know of very few people in our group who don't think that the lifestyle in Chicago, or the denser coastal cities, is far more desirable than the sprawltopia of Michigan. The only reason many of us natives would ever consider returning to Michigan is to be closer to family. And while that might be a strong incentive for a native to be attracted back to Michigan, it usually isn't enough. It also certainly doesn't do anything to attract any non-natives to Michigan.

Before someone says, "well I like my car" or "I like to drive", so we don't need to be like New York or Chicago, blah, blah, blah. Well, I like cars and driving too. I actually owned a car in New York until I realized that it was pointless to have one there. My life ended up being much simpler without a car in New York than it was when I owned a car in Michigan. You just don't know convenience until you can buy fruit from a cart at the corner of your block, or buy a newspaper from the newspaper vendor near the subway entrance, or walk to the bar a few blocks away to have a couple of drinks without risk of DUI, or buy groceries from a full service grocery store a block away. You could even have those groceries delivered to your door step for an entire year, and that lifestyle would be far less expensive than the cost of owning and maintaining a car.

I do understand that not everybody wants the hustle and bustle of a densely populated city. But I think that those people should live in suburban or rural areas. The truth is that Metro Detroit wants the status of a bustling metropolis without actually having a bustling metropolis. You can find anything that you desire about Generic Suburb, Michigan in Generic Suburb, New York or Generic Suburb, Illinois. What you can't find is Bustling City, Michigan because for whatever reason the powers that be have decided that it should not exist here. So all of the people who desire that lifestyle -- and trust me there are a LOT of people who like it -- go elsewhere. And even those who realize that they don't actually want to live in the middle of it, decide that living near it is better than returning to Michigan.

[iheartthed]

Ironically, just after I responded I read something in the NY Times related to my reply above. Particularly, this part about how expensive it is to own a car versus living in a walkable environment:

But the bottom line is household economics. American families who are car-dependent spend 25 percent of their household income on their fleet of cars, compared with just 9 percent for transportation for those who live in walkable urban places. That potential 16 percent savings could go into improved housing [[building household wealth), educating children or that most un-American of all activities, saving.

I also thought this next part was interesting. For those who ever wondered why denser neighborhoods aren't already be being built, if it were truly what the market wanted:

There are a number of steps that need to occur to give the market what it wants, including:
• More rail transit and bike and walking infrastructure
• Legal permission to build higher-density, multiuse projects [[generally, walkable urban development is illegal in the U.S.)
• Management of these places to insure cleanliness and safety, and promote festivals and infrastructure
• Affordable housing programs to insure inclusiveness since these places tend to be the most expensive places to live and work on a price-per-square-foot basis.

http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.c...ss-in-america/