Grosse Pointe Park, Detroit at odds over historic buildings

[begingri]

Revived Thread Jan. 27, 2015 - "Seems this building has gone to the bulldozer. No word on what allowed its demolition." Jump to reanimated discussion >>

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Original 2011 post.

By CECIL ANGEL
Detroit Free Press Staff Writer

The City of Grosse Pointe Park wants the state Court of Appeals to overturn a decision by the Detroit Historic District Commission that prevents the city from tearing down two buildings that it owns in Detroit.What began as a proposed land swap between two cities has evolved into a case about the authority of historic commissions versus the rights of property owners.

The two cities wanted to trade properties, with Grosse Pointe Park giving up the two buildings it owns in Detroit in exchange for Detroit turning over a Detroit Department of Transportation property next door, in Grosse Pointe Park.

Grosse Pointe Park officials say the buildings are too rundown to be saved and they want to make way for redevelopment. But the historic commission says the buildings, despite their condition, can be saved and are a key part of the city's history.

"The damage they did prevented us from doing anything with those buildings," Grosse Pointe Park Mayor Palmer Heenan said of the commission.

In 2004, Grosse Pointe Park bought two commercial buildings in Detroit -- one built in 1918 that housed the long-closed Deck Bar at 14901-14915 E. Jefferson, and the other a party store at 14917 E. Jefferson that was built in 1920. At that time, the buildings were not deemed historic by the City of Detroit.

Heenan said Grosse Pointe Park officials want to improve the border of Detroit and Grosse Pointe Park.

"We wanted to put some kind of development there that would satisfy both cities," he said.

Grosse Pointe Park officials said they want the current DDOT property at Wayburn and East Jefferson so it can be redeveloped, possibly into senior housing or an arts center.

In exchange for the DDOT property, Grosse Pointe Park said it would tear down the two Detroit buildings it owns, build a new bus-turnaround facility on the property and give it to DDOT.

A letter dated Jan. 3, 2007, from DDOT to Grosse Pointe Park about the proposed agreement said, "The City of Grosse Pointe Park will assume all costs for demolition, construction and landscaping of the new Wayburn Loop turn-a-round."

The City of Grosse Pointe Park wants the state Court of Appeals to overturn a decision by the Detroit Historic District Commission that prevents the city from tearing down two buildings that it owns in Detroit.What began as a proposed land swap between two cities has evolved into a case about the authority of historic commissions versus the rights of property owners.

The two cities wanted to trade properties, with Grosse Pointe Park giving up the two buildings it owns in Detroit in exchange for Detroit turning over a Detroit Department of Transportation property next door, in Grosse Pointe Park.
Grosse Pointe Park officials say the buildings are too rundown to be saved and they want to make way for redevelopment. But the historic commission says the buildings, despite their condition, can be saved and are a key part of the city's history.

"The damage they did prevented us from doing anything with those buildings," Grosse Pointe Park Mayor Palmer Heenan said of the commission.

In 2004, Grosse Pointe Park bought two commercial buildings in Detroit -- one built in 1918 that housed the long-closed Deck Bar at 14901-14915 E. Jefferson, and the other a party store at 14917 E. Jefferson that was built in 1920. At that time, the buildings were not deemed historic by the City of Detroit.

Heenan said Grosse Pointe Park officials want to improve the border of Detroit and Grosse Pointe Park.
"We wanted to put some kind of development there that would satisfy both cities," he said.

Grosse Pointe Park officials said they want the current DDOT property at Wayburn and East Jefferson so it can be redeveloped, possibly into senior housing or an arts center.

In exchange for the DDOT property, Grosse Pointe Park said it would tear down the two Detroit buildings it owns, build a new bus-turnaround facility on the property and give it to DDOT.

A letter dated Jan. 3, 2007, from DDOT to Grosse Pointe Park about the proposed agreement said, "The City of Grosse Pointe Park will assume all costs for demolition, construction and landscaping of the new Wayburn Loop turn-a-round."

Source: http://www.freep.com/article/2011013...oric-buildings

[Proslack]

I use to go to the Deck bar all the time starting back in 2003 or so when i lived on Ashland, just after the famous "Ashland Hump". I was really sad to see it close many years later when i was living in Chicago. I don't believe for one moment the building is beyond saving. I do believe that any renovation of the building would have to include a total gutting of the interior because I do remember the wood beams inside were beginning to show their age. The exterior of the building seems to be pretty solid. I drove by that building a couple weeks ago and checked out the condition of the neighborhood also. I noticed the laundry mat and the old hole in the wall bar just east were both torn down. What i loved most about the building was the courtyard in the rear that had the apartments above. I remember there was a young guy from the UK that had relocated to the US and was renting one of the apartments at the building.

[DanFromDetroit]

I use to go to the Deck bar all the time starting back in 2003 or so when i lived on Ashland, just after the famous "Ashland Hump". I was really sad to see it close many years later when i was living in Chicago. I don't believe for one moment the building is beyond saving. I do believe that any renovation of the building would have to include a total gutting of the interior because I do remember the wood beams inside were beginning to show their age. The exterior of the building seems to be pretty solid. I drove by that building a couple weeks ago and checked out the condition of the neighborhood also. I noticed the laundry mat and the old hole in the wall bar just east were both torn down. What i loved most about the building was the courtyard in the rear that had the apartments above. I remember there was a young guy from the UK that had relocated to the US and was renting one of the apartments at the building.

What kills me are all the people that talk about old decaying buildings and say "we can still save them", well fine - pony up the cash needed or let the ppl that own them do as they please. Architectural treasures are only worth something if they can be saved and someone is actually doing something about it. It's more of a disgrace to let them sit and slowly fade into dust while the public wrings their hands since nothing is being done. If no one can afford to fix them up, then let the city demolish them and move forward with something useful instead of the eyesore they are today.

[Novine]

GPP wants to turn another chunk of Detroit into a paved-over, non-revenue producing bus turnaround so they can redevelop property within their own city. Sounds like bad planning on Detroit's part to have ever bought into this scheme in the first place.

[Whitehouse]

And they call those as damaged buildings?? I think the Book Cadillac was in worse shape before they resurrected that building.

[DetroitPole]

What kills me are all the people that talk about old decaying buildings and say "we can still save them", well fine - pony up the cash needed or let the ppl that own them do as they please. Architectural treasures are only worth something if they can be saved and someone is actually doing something about it. It's more of a disgrace to let them sit and slowly fade into dust while the public wrings their hands since nothing is being done. If no one can afford to fix them up, then let the city demolish them and move forward with something useful instead of the eyesore they are today.

Like the Statler site? The Hudson's site? The Lafayette Building site? the Tiger Stadium site? How wonderfully those were re-purposed.
Have you ever been to Europe? Could you imagine if they bulldozed everything there?
You know Corktown and Woodbridge were both pretty slummy neighborhoods of old crappy buildings that were both to be razed in their entirety - would that have been better?
At least have a plan first before you go and raze something you can't get back. Not too much to ask.

[sumas]

As usual our local paper get most of the facts wrong. It was Jeba that stopped GPP from demolishing the deck. It was/is a serious cool building with loads of history. The sales of properties on the block were private transactions. So much more to this story but sometimes I get tired of sharing.

The Deck was a serious, way cool gay bar. Not gay, myself, but it was just that much of a fun establishment. Some serious Euchre tournaments and the back outside patio was great. The pool room was hardly big enough for the table, made shooting pool a bit unique. The burleque shows, the best! Mike night, so so.

Our gay friends there, would protect my husband from solicitations from "outsiders". Different stories there!

Gpp cops would stake it out all the time. [[Call it harassment) Been followed home in the distant past by them more than few times. I don't drink, my car is plated so they just followed me. Would call the bar and say hey, tell patrons not to drive through GP.

Sadly the last owners did gut the place of everything, interior, After selling to GPP. We did go to their fire sale not to buy, just mourn.

Oh, forgot, why in the world would they [[the paper) contact GPP mayor, just a very old, unpaid figure head. Nice man but quite clueless.

[grumpyoldlady]

I had a gay friend who had the s*** beat out of him after leaving The Deck. Probably more guys did, too. There was a restaurant just west of there on the same side of Jefferson. Grey brick 2 story place with a large lawn in front. Anyone remember it? Can't recall the name.

[jerrytimes]

GPP wants to turn another chunk of Detroit into a paved-over, non-revenue producing bus turnaround so they can redevelop property within their own city. Sounds like bad planning on Detroit's part to have ever bought into this scheme in the first place.

Instead, it's a vacant, non-revenue producing brick building. That's much better! Other than their age, what makes these buildings historic?

[GPCharles]

Nothing. People may have some attachment to the corner building, but the next one was your typical party store. They have been sitting empty for a long time.

[mccarch]

Nothing. People may have some attachment to the corner building, but the next one was your typical party store. They have been sitting empty for a long time.

Nothing? Why does a person think - that if he or she doesn't know anything about a building - that it has no history?

The building in question was built as a branch bank for the American State Bank, one of Detroit's larger banks prior to the Depression. The postcard attached is also a Detroit creation, a Phostint from Detroit Publishing, perhaps America's greatest postcard publishing firm.

Nothing?

[GPCharles]

Great! I am so glad they have a history! I can personally attest that for the last 40 years or so, they have been used as a bar and a party store.

Now, what's your plan and source of financing for a practical re-use of the buildings. Bank branches are a dime a dozen. There's an empty former NBD branch about 4 blocks west that has a stone facade. That area of East Jefferson is littered with empty store fronts with FOR LEASE signs in them.

Let's work to save those buildings with true historical and/or architectural signifigance.

[Gistok]

Let me get this right... Grosse Pointe Park wants a DDOT building in their City so they can build senior housing or an arts center... doesn't sound bad....

But they want to take the 2 Detroit buildings that they've owned since 2004, and have let rot... just so they can have them razed and turn the property into a bus turnaround loop and bus shelter.... for Detroit.

Will this prevent DDOT buses from entering Grosse Pointe Park, if this is finished?

If they want to do a land swap.... I have no problem with that... but GPP has no damn business telling Detroit what to do [[or what will be done) with land just outside of their jurisdiction.

That would make as much sense as Detroit telling GPP that they can buy the Detroit property in GPP, but it has to become a bus turnaround.

This looks like the GPP "Master Plan" includes plans outside their jurisdiction... how pretentious!!

[GPCharles]

There is no DDOT building in Grosse Pointe Park - just land for a turnaround. Note that GPP bought the land before the City of Detroit listed them as historic. "The two cities wanted to trade properties, with Grosse Pointe Park giving up the two buildings it owns in Detroit in exchange for Detroit turning over a Detroit Department of Transportation property next door, in Grosse Pointe Park. But the historic commission says the buildings, despite their condition, can be saved and are a key part of the city's history."

Key part ot the city's history my ass. This reeks of pay to play - talk about pretentious!

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

I used to frequent The Deck back in the 1980's. Too bad its gone. Its such an attractive building that I think it would be more in GPP's interest to have it intact and restored and sitting as a gateway building. Certainly there would be an opportunity for apartments in it again.

Its high time for another gay bar at that location! With security...

[bailey]

Let me get this right... Grosse Pointe Park wants a DDOT building in their City so they can build senior housing or an arts center... doesn't sound bad....

But they want to take the 2 Detroit buildings that they've owned since 2004, and have let rot... just so they can have them razed and turn the property into a bus turnaround loop and bus shelter.... for Detroit.

Will this prevent DDOT buses from entering Grosse Pointe Park, if this is finished?

If they want to do a land swap.... I have no problem with that... but GPP has no damn business telling Detroit what to do [[or what will be done) with land just outside of their jurisdiction.

That would make as much sense as Detroit telling GPP that they can buy the Detroit property in GPP, but it has to become a bus turnaround.

This looks like the GPP "Master Plan" includes plans outside their jurisdiction... how pretentious!!

The buildings in question and the bus turnaround are practically on the same plot. Now they turn around in front of St Ambrose... after the swap --instead of having to turn left off Jefferson, go down an alley and turn around-- they'd be able to turn around at Alter at a traffic light. Frankly it seems like the whole set up makes more sense from a traffic flow perspective. It is moving the turn around all of 50 -100ft south [[one side of wayburn to the other). It's not like they moved it 15 blocks away in some evil plot to screw DDOT.

Further as GP notes, Detroit agreed to the deal and then reneged. I suppose we could just say...typical Detroit behavior. right?

[Gistok]

There are way too many unanswered questions here...

1) Did DDOT discuss their plans with the Jefferson-Chalmers retailer group?
2) Did DDOT discuss this with City Council?
2) Was this all planned under the KK administration?
3) Is the DHC putting a hold on this because the Bing Admin is pressuring them? Or maybe the Jefferson-Chalmers Association is pressuring them?
4) are these 2 buildings [[and others along East Jefferson) getting onto a historic designation list?

As far a s GPP saying the buildings are too far gone.... maybe for Grosse Pointe standards....

[DanFromDetroit]

Like the Statler site? The Hudson's site? The Lafayette Building site? the Tiger Stadium site? How wonderfully those were re-purposed.
Have you ever been to Europe? Could you imagine if they bulldozed everything there?
You know Corktown and Woodbridge were both pretty slummy neighborhoods of old crappy buildings that were both to be razed in their entirety - would that have been better?
At least have a plan first before you go and raze something you can't get back. Not too much to ask.

That's the price of progress - like I said originally, if you want to keep them around so much then pay to fix them. Until then it's up to the owners to decide their fate. I've lived in Europe - have you? When I was in Stockholm last year I saw that despite everyone's idealistic image of grand old buildings on every corner, there are actually many brand new buildings next to the old. I'm not promoting razing the entire city but at some point you have to draw a line, tear down what's not cost effective to remodel and build something new. In this case it's even more simple in that the city [[Detroit) seems to have a very flexible definition of "historic". It seems that they can smell money, pure and simple. How were these buildings revenue producing? Right now they're dilapidated eyesores that need to be removed.

[sumas]

Sigh! Does anyone read threads.

JEBA stopped this demolishtion. I applaud them. JEBA offered grant monies and other inducements to stop demolishment. Many ideas were very creative. It's true, the building now sits fallow.

GP just wanted extended parking for it's municipal lot and for St Ambrose, old money and clout. The art center, if ever built, will go on property in front of Ewald Library.

The very cute historic building on corner of Maryland was torn down ages ago. It housed the GPP artists Ass. They had it rent free and most of their funding came from renting the upstairs appartments.

If GP takes Detroit's lead, it will just have another convenient fire.

[Gistok]

Sumas... not everyone understands every acronym... JEBA for example... [[you had it in lower case)... I had no clue what you were talking about until now... Jefferson...East??.... Business... Association....

Good for them!!

This thread now reminds me of when the Ilitch's wanted to [[via the Wayne County Stadium Authority) tear down the historic Women's Exchange Building... for of all things.... a decorative sidewalk to Comerica Park!!!

I don't blame JEBA... Alter and Jefferson is the eastern terminius of JEBA, and they probably would prefer commercial activity at that important corner, rather something as lame as a bus shelter and turnaround....

[jerrytimes]

Nothing? Why does a person think - that if he or she doesn't know anything about a building - that it has no history?

The building in question was built as a branch bank for the American State Bank, one of Detroit's larger banks prior to the Depression. The postcard attached is also a Detroit creation, a Phostint from Detroit Publishing, perhaps America's greatest postcard publishing firm.

Nothing?

So it was an old bank prior to the depression. That doesn't make it historic, it just means it has a history. If there is a wall that I pissed on when I was 5 and I tell people that I pissed on it 26 years ago, that's just a teeny bit of history of the wall, but it's not historic.

[mccarch]

Other than their age, what makes these buildings historic?

Jerry, you asked a question and I gave a preliminary answer.

As a personal aside, I'm not all that interested where you piss. Of course, I'd appreciate if you'd stay away from my house.

[Novine]

"I'm not promoting razing the entire city but at some point you have to draw a line, tear down what's not cost effective to remodel and build something new."

Great plan! When are you going to get around building something new? We've heard this tired old argument for decades. Please tell us when the "new" is going to fill all the vacant lots you argue needed to be created.

[bailey]

"I'm not promoting razing the entire city but at some point you have to draw a line, tear down what's not cost effective to remodel and build something new."

Great plan! When are you going to get around building something new? We've heard this tired old argument for decades. Please tell us when the "new" is going to fill all the vacant lots you argue needed to be created.

Well, in the case these buildings that are the subject of this thread, the whole purpose of tearing down these empty and derelict structures IS to build something new. So, what is your point?

The only reason there is any dispute here is that clearly someone connected with the Historic Commission did not get their slice of what ever pie was available. Figure out who it is, pay them, and get it settled...it'll be more cost effective and these buildings will come down faster.

[Gistok]

Bailey...

Here's your answer...

http://www.jeffersoneast.org/services.html

Unlike you or I, these people have a daily vested interest into not turning 2 business ON A MAJOR INTERSECTION into a bus shelter and cul-de-sac.