editorial

[citylover]

http://detnews.com/article/20110116/...-these-schools


comments?

[Detroitnerd]

This isn't about schools. It isn't about education. It's about politics. It's about privatizing the Detroit Public Schools system and breaking the public unions. I'd bet dollars to donuts that if the schools were privatized and the union were broken, ideologues such as Nolan Finely wouldn't be overly concerned with THOSE schools' students ending up on welfare or in prison. It would be a profitable system, and the union would be a memory, further driving down all our wages and enriching the most powerful.

Nolan's act is a good one, though. Always appears to be talking sense, like any good demagogue.

[marcwigle]

This isn't about schools. It isn't about education. It's about politics. It's about privatizing the Detroit Public Schools system and breaking the public unions. I'd bet dollars to donuts that if the schools were privatized and the union were broken, ideologues such as Nolan Finely wouldn't be overly concerned with THOSE schools' students ending up on welfare or in prison. It would be a profitable system, and the union would be a memory, further driving down all our wages and enriching the most powerful.

Nolan's act is a good one, though. Always appears to be talking sense, like any good demagogue.

I can't comment on the DPS directly but I can say that the school boards within the city that I live don't fare a whole lot better. The system is amazingly expensive and no one is held to account... they just keep shovelling money at it. The teachers want more money to "improve" working conditions yet no one seems to be overly concerned about the students. As long as the teachers get more money, more time off and less actual teaching time, the kids become a burden to them... something to not worry about. BTW, my ex-wife is a teacher and is in the job for the money and pension. As soon as she is eligible, she's gone. Only a small handful of teachers actually want the job... the rest want the money.

[citylover]

This isn't about schools. It isn't about education. It's about politics. It's about privatizing the Detroit Public Schools system and breaking the public unions. I'd bet dollars to donuts that if the schools were privatized and the union were broken, ideologues such as Nolan Finely wouldn't be overly concerned with THOSE schools' students ending up on welfare or in prison. It would be a profitable system, and the union would be a memory, further driving down all our wages and enriching the most powerful.

Nolan's act is a good one, though. Always appears to be talking sense, like any good demagogue.

Until he died I knew someone as knowledgeable as any one anywhere regarding school administration.This person was born and educated in Detroit.He attended Detroit schools, WSU and much later a PHD from UM. He was a universally respected administrator having been a superintendent at several urban districts in Mich and other states.And he mentored many others in education several that went on to the highest level of school admin.You simply can not find anyone to say a bad word about this person.

His last job in which he was still working when he died was director of charter schools at a state Univ. He was a staunch union supporter.I asked him about the idea that charter school teachers were paid less. He told me not true, initially the pay is comparable but with experience public teachers are paid considerably more. But he also told me that there was no reason why charter teachers could not organize...And oh yeah he never bullshitted about charters by and large they perform comparably to public schools i.e. on average there is not much difference in performance.I will take his word over any dogma that I read here because he was as honest and had unwavering credibility and integrity....and he knew his stuff as well as any anywhere.

You may wonder why I write all that.It is because you will not get much support for your position DN. Is there anything grossly exaggerated by this editorial.I read the news DPS is asking for a break on $$ and they have suggested that there may be classrooms with sixty students or more. Surely there is a more productive response than yours....

[Detroitnerd]

His last job in which he was still working when he died was director of charter schools at a state Univ. He was a staunch union supporter.I asked him about the idea that charter school teachers were paid less. He told me not true, initially the pay is comparable but with experience public teachers are paid considerably more. But he also told me that there was no reason why charter teachers could not organize...

I can only presume that you have no experience with unionizing a workplace. In theory, sure, you can try to organize a union. And the owners get to harass you, intimidate your co-workers, heat up the rhetoric in the run-up to the "election" -- which itself isn't necessary in countries that are less hostile to unions. It's not illegal or impossible to try to unionize a workplace ... in theory ... it's just the ways the rules are written, it's almost impossible to win an election.

i.e. on average there is not much difference in performance.

Oh, sure. That's because you have administrators pressuring teachers to simply pass students who are incompetent. The school looks good, they continue to rake in money, and the students are not educated. I say this based on a secondhand experience working in a charter school. Anyway, show me a unionized charter school. Just one. Oh, yes, in theory, the can organize a union, they just haven't at all since they've begun.

If you want to talk about ideologues and dogma, look no further than the author of this editorial.

You wanted comments, you got them.

Or what was it? You wanted to post this editorial not in hopes of hearing people's comments, but in hopes that everybody would agree? Sigh ... ... enjoy the discussion ...

[Baselinepunk]

"That's because you have administrators pressuring teachers to simply pass students who are incompetent."

I can attest to this fact. I was pressured from an Administrator to pass a failing student. He played on the high school basketball team. I was told that basketball was all he had and that if I didn't pass him, I would ruin his life because he would have to drop out of school and wind up on the streets. The closer was phrased: "How would like to have that on your conscience?"

Not one of my proudest moments to say the least.

[DetroitTeacher]

If DPS was dismantled, wouldn't the debt still be there? We will need public schools to adhere to the federal law of Free and Appropriate Public Education [[FAPE) for kids. Most kids who go to charters/private/suburban schools end up back in DPS after count day because the other schools kicked them out for some infraction. DPS MUST take them back because we are a public school system. It doesn't matter what the kid did or that we haven't gotten the money to educate that kid, we must take them. If we didn't take any kids after count day, DPS would be better than it is now because right now, we have more kids than we have money [[the charter/private/suburban school got the money for that/those kids). Usually those kids come back to DPS and cause all sorts of drama.

If DPS is started afresh, then they really need to operate like these other charters...don't take the kids after count day, give them the boot if they act up, hold parents accountable for actually sending their kid to school, hold teachers accountable for teaching [[and not teaching to a stupid test), not test kids 50 times a year [[you don't want to know how many standardized tests my kids have to take each year...and only one is state mandated), hold adminstration accountable for its accounting, actually keep tabs on cash and not let folks rob the schools blind, and have community support.

Unfortunately, the kids I see every day don't have much support at home [[most of them were never read to as young children), most of them have parents who don't care [[when I see 5 parents out of 100 at PTCs, that tells me something), and most of them have parents who don't value education and don't demand that their child values his/her education. Until that all changes, no matter what is put in place...it won't work.

[mwilbert]

We will need public schools to adhere to the federal law of Free and Appropriate Public Education [[FAPE) for kids

I don't know much about this, but does this apply to all kids or just students with disabilities? Also, the law clearly requires that those children get services at public expense, but I don't see that it requires they have to be provided within a public school system.

Until that all changes, no matter what is put in place...it won't work.

I think you are likely correct, but that doesn't leave me thinking we should keep running the DPS either. In addition to not working, it has a huge amount of baggage.

I continue not to see the point of the DPS. It doesn't teach students much of anything, it costs a lot, and it scares people away from the city. Essentially everyone who can get their kids out of it, does. It is hard for me to understand how any alternative system could be worse for the kids; we are talking about a district whose students allegedly would have done just as well on last year's NEAP if they had been guessing randomly. I can easily see how a different system might not be better, but I don't see the downside [[again, for the kids, not for the adults who have a vested interest in the current administrative structure) of trying something else, and preferably a variety of alternatives. Maybe a few of them will work, at least better than what we have now.

[English]

OP and/or Moderators: Could we please have a more descriptive title on this thread? You have to click it in order to know it's about schools.

Citylover, I'm sorry that I didn't get the chance to meet your friend.

[citylover]

I can only presume that you have no experience with unionizing a workplace. In theory, sure, you can try to organize a union. And the owners get to harass you, intimidate your co-workers, heat up the rhetoric in the run-up to the "election" -- which itself isn't necessary in countries that are less hostile to unions. It's not illegal or impossible to try to unionize a workplace ... in theory ... it's just the ways the rules are written, it's almost impossible to win an election.



Oh, sure. That's because you have administrators pressuring teachers to simply pass students who are incompetent. The school looks good, they continue to rake in money, and the students are not educated. I say this based on a secondhand experience working in a charter school. Anyway, show me a unionized charter school. Just one. Oh, yes, in theory, the can organize a union, they just haven't at all since they've begun.

If you want to talk about ideologues and dogma, look no further than the author of this editorial.

You wanted comments, you got them.

Or what was it? You wanted to post this editorial not in hopes of hearing people's comments, but in hopes that everybody would agree? Sigh ... ... enjoy the discussion ...

Administrators have no power to hire or fire in a school.And again I will take the word of my now gone friend over yours regarding school performance from now until the cockroaches have ceased to exist.... if administrators "pressure" as is alluded to here then that information should be brought up to the board of ed and the pto...

Btw my friend did not say it would be easy he said it could be done.Are you saying it can not be done? Why not? Is it against the law? Maybe you missed the obvious point that this person I described who knew more about the machinations of education then you or I will ever know was willing to administer charter schools[[ charters are public schools) because he cared about education.What is your point?

[DetroitTeacher]

FAPE applies to ALL students, not just those with disabilities. It's mostly known because of children with disabilities, though. Services must be provided, at public expense, for those with disabilities but that's another ball of wax under IDEA. Public Schools must provide an education to all children, therefore, there must be public schools for all kids. It's pretty circular in the concept. Legally, anyone who is not receiving a public education can make noise about it [[if they choose a public education as opposed to a private education). Those students in private institutions are to be provided services for disabilities. If the private school can not or does not provide those services, then the public school system must do so. If there is no public school system then the kid receives no services because there will be no one to pay for it [[it all comes out of the public school system coffers). I don't see how one can have FAPE without a public school system.

Charter schools are NOT public schools. They can refuse to accept and/or remove a child for ANY reason. Public schools can not do that. Public schools must educate EVERY child.

I guess it's a Catch-22. An education is a right, not a privilege.

[citylover]

FAPE applies to ALL students, not just those with disabilities. It's mostly known because of children with disabilities, though. Services must be provided, at public expense, for those with disabilities but that's another ball of wax under IDEA. Public Schools must provide an education to all children, therefore, there must be public schools for all kids. It's pretty circular in the concept. Legally, anyone who is not receiving a public education can make noise about it [[if they choose a public education as opposed to a private education). Those students in private institutions are to be provided services for disabilities. If the private school can not or does not provide those services, then the public school system must do so. If there is no public school system then the kid receives no services because there will be no one to pay for it [[it all comes out of the public school system coffers). I don't see how one can have FAPE without a public school system.

Charter schools are NOT public schools. They can refuse to accept and/or remove a child for ANY reason. Public schools can not do that. Public schools must educate EVERY child.

I guess it's a Catch-22. An education is a right, not a privilege.

With all due respect charters are public schools. Detroit public schools have charter schoools.

[DetroitTeacher]

Well then it's an SAT question/answer. Public schools do have charters but not all charters are public. They don't have to follow the same rules, federally, as public schools. They are an alternative to the true public schools. Not all public schools have charters, either.

I'm looking at it from an educator's view. Charters have their own rules and governance, even those run by the public school districts. They don't have to play by the same rules as public schools so, in my view, that does not make them really public. They don't have to accept anybody off the street like public schools [[even those run by DPS), they can remove a child for whatever reason [[public schools can't do that), and they have a different set of rules when it comes to testing and accountability. They are also for-profit schools [[even those run by DPS).

[fryar]

For the sake of argument, couldn't they just take those issues into account?

[citylover]

[QUOTE=DetroitTeacher;215929]Well then it's an SAT question/answer. Public schools do have charters but not all charters are public. They don't have to follow the same rules, federally, as public schools. They are an alternative to the true public schools. Not all public schools have charters, either.

I'm looking at it from an educator's view. Charters have their own rules and governance, even those run by the public school districts. They don't have to play by the same rules as public schools so, in my view, that does not make them really public. They don't have to accept anybody off the street like public schools [[even those run by DPS), they can remove a child for whatever reason [[public schools can't do that), and they have a different set of rules when it comes to testing and accountability. They are also for-profit schools [[even those run by DPS).[/QUOTE



I am disappointing DT. You are being less than honest.If one were to believe you at face value charters are for profit that don't give a damn about students.As I said initially in this thread my friend that headed up a charter program never ever would just get rid of a student or put cash flow ahead of a students well being any more then he would when he was a public school administrator.
.
I am not here to defend charters as being the solution.But trying to bogeyman charters aint gonna work ,they are here to stay.It would be nice if there could be some honesty about them rather then self serving misinformation.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_school

[DetroitTeacher]

I'm not trying to do anything. Some charters are great but, from MY experience, they aren't all they are cracked up to be. My son went to a charter for high school [[his choice) and it was horrible! I'm not saying they are all horrible, I have friends who work at charters and love it and the kids. I've heard my students talk, too. They say that they got kicked out of a charter or that the suburban schools kicked them out for whatever reasons [[all of this after the count day). Public schools MUST take those kids and educate them. Charters and private schools do not.

Your friend, from the sounds of it, was at a charter a while back. Maybe he was one of the decent admins in a charter who tried to work with the kids, I don't know. YOU are basing your opinion on one person, who you won't name and who sounds like he is no longer with us, and YOUR views of him and his school. I am looking at the big picture. Charters don't have to take all kids nor do they have to keep all kids. Public schools do and that was the point I was trying to make and to refute your statement that charters are public schools. They are not public [[they might try and say they are) but they do not have to follow the same rules as public schools and that makes them non-public).

On a side note...Wikipedia? Really? I don't even let my students cite Wikipedia.

[Pingu]

I like it. It's not about teachers, and it's not about race. It's all about discipline. My dad was a substitute teacher for a while, ex-Navy officer, ex-Navy boxer, and his biggest frustration was not being able to smash some of these kids in the face. Right now private day-care has more latitude in kicking out troublesome kids than public schools do. Maybe once the schools are privatized, these kids can get kicked out, and parents who treat schools as nothing more than free day-care for their kids will be forced to step up and apply some discipline.

[Detroitnerd]

Administrators have no power to hire or fire in a school.

I can only presume that you live in a fantasyland of floating gumdrops and talking soap bubbles to believe such nonsense.

[DetroitTeacher]

BUILDING administrators do NOT have the authority to hire and fire...that is the district's job. They can, however, do the mounds of paperwork to rate a teacher unsatisfactory but it's a tedious process and not many admins will do that.

[citylover]

I'm not trying to do anything. Some charters are great but, from MY experience, they aren't all they are cracked up to be. My son went to a charter for high school [[his choice) and it was horrible! I'm not saying they are all horrible, I have friends who work at charters and love it and the kids. I've heard my students talk, too. They say that they got kicked out of a charter or that the suburban schools kicked them out for whatever reasons [[all of this after the count day). Public schools MUST take those kids and educate them. Charters and private schools do not.

Your friend, from the sounds of it, was at a charter a while back. Maybe he was one of the decent admins in a charter who tried to work with the kids, I don't know. YOU are basing your opinion on one person, who you won't name and who sounds like he is no longer with us, and YOUR views of him and his school. I am looking at the big picture. Charters don't have to take all kids nor do they have to keep all kids. Public schools do and that was the point I was trying to make and to refute your statement that charters are public schools. They are not public [[they might try and say they are) but they do not have to follow the same rules as public schools and that makes them non-public).

On a side note...Wikipedia? Really? I don't even let my students cite Wikipedia.

Last things 1st I agree wiki is not the most desirable source; but this particular one is fairly even handed.

Next my relative died about 18 mo's ago. I could send you the articles about people from education in Mich and other places marveling at his knowledge of school administration for example ...."the finest superintendent I have ever had to work under....."a superintendent extraordinaire".... "A storehouse of educational knowledge"...

He was the director of charter schools in that he set the schools up and made sure they were in compliance....not one school many schools around Detroit. This was after he retired as a superintendent. I certainly don't want this to be about my dead relatives credentials.I will say this DT you would have loved to work for him. And please remember as I have said he never gloated about charters.He was an administrator not a cheerleader. But he took it very seriously and as I have illustrated in the thread he knew his stuff.

So again I ask that fairness and honesty be used.It is fair and honest to say charters are here to stay, charters perform on par with public schools and charters have dedicated teachers and administrators.

[DetroitTeacher]

City: I'm NOT disputing what you are saying, for the most part. I am just saying that charters aren't public schools [[in the traditional sense). Your relative may have been great and set up wonderful charters. That isn't in dispute. Charters are here to stay...again, not in dispute. Whether they perform on par with public schools...probably, I've not seen evidence to prove or disprove this [[but then again, they can kick the dregs of society out while public school must take them and that's what WE have to work with when no one else will). Dedicated teachers and admin, again, not in dispute [[I know some wonderful folks who work in charters). I'm just saying that they don't HAVE TO follow the same rules as public schools [[maybe the charters your relative set up did...I don't know).