Thoughts on Ohio Casinos?

**TJC** · January-15-11, 11:38 AM

Being out at a local bar most recently, I got talking with a gentleman beside me who incidently is in upper management at Greektown Casino. When I asked him how he felt about the effects on Detroit Casinos once Ohio gets up and running, his numbers were quite startling. He stated that 27% of players card holders at Greektown are from Ohio. They anticipate only holding on to 7% of those players, and even then, they won't visit as often. Also, another 15% of players cards belong to people who live in Michigan, but are closer to Ohio, than downtown Detroit. They anticipate only holding on to 5% of those players. He believes that whether Ohio Casinos allow smoking or not, at the end of the day it will be about convienience. I'm not sure how MGM or Motorcity will hold up in this, but things are looking grim for Greektown soon. Any thoughts?

**esp1986** · January-15-11, 12:20 PM

You have to remember, even though a lot of card holders are from Ohio, being so far away they don't visit as much as people in the Detroit area do, so that needs to be taken into consideration as well. I happen to do a lot of business in the Toledo area, and have frequently talked to people involved with the casino going up there. The "Toledo Casino" isn't even in Toledo, it is in Rossford, a neighboring city. It borders an industrial area and a fairly low income residential area, so not the best of areas. Also, Ohio has a no smoking law, meaning no smoking, period. I would say that a very large percentage of casino patrons smoke, I can't estimate a number, but it is strikingly high. People wanting to smoke in casinos are still going to patronize the Detroit casinos, perhaps just less.

The Rossford casino is a joke, the whole Ohio casino plan is. Dan Gilbert has the rights to casinos in Cincinnati and Cleveland, and those two are being very well thought out, placed in downtown areas where they can both spur ecoomic development and benefit from it. The developer of the other two casinos is Penn National Gaming. Their effort, or lack thereof, is to get the cheapest casino up as fast as possible to make money. Fortunately for Detroit's sake, the Rossford casino is one of Penn National's. This casino is small and overall, very poorly planned.

Detroit needs to be worried a little bit, but not as much as one would think. I have talked to a lot of Ohioans that patronize the Detroit casinos once or twice a month, and they said they will still visit Detroit's casinos. Many people in the Toledo area know that the casinos in Detroit will still be better, and all of the smokers I know have no plans for gambling in Ohio.

I estimate the Ohio casinos will have less than a 10% impact on revenues at the Detroit casinos.

**TJC** · January-15-11, 12:47 PM

Interesting thoughts. However, Harrahs will be taking care of the Cinci and Cleaveland Casinos. I am sure that they are a big enough company to make sure revenues stay in Ohio. I only estimate a higher percentage than 10% because when the snow is flying, and its below zero, I dont see people making the drive to Detroit from Ohio. And once those people get "comfy" there, and see that machine and table wise, Detroit isn't offering anything more than Ohio, many people will stop going to Detroit. The smoking ban in Ohio has been in place long enough for people to get used to it, and when push comes to shove, I dont think it will matter much.

**Richard** · January-15-11, 01:38 PM

From what I have noticed in Fla for instance when I was living in Orlando you have both the gambling ships on east coast and the Hard Rock casino 1 hour away in Tampa. But still the majority would drive 10 hours to Mississippi to gamble, Why ? because they viewed it as an excuse to get away even if it was for a day.

The Hard rock in Tampa is packed almost 24-7 lots of Mississippi cars there and the same goes for Mississippi with lots of Fla cars in their parking lots,the hard core ones will stick to the closest one but for the majority I think it is more of a destination trip to drive farther,case in point is I have a friend that lives 1/2 from the Hard Rock but yet she will drive to Mississippi gamble for the evening then drive back the next day.

Mr. Gilbert is a numbers person who has invested a lot into the CBD and knowing the contribution that the local casinos provide in revenue if he thought that it would be detrimental to move that revenue elsewhere IMHO I do not believe he would have gone that route,kinda like shooting yourself in the foot.

**3WC** · January-15-11, 01:52 PM

If the "gentleman" in the bar who allegedly discussed the casino's internal numbers and projections with a total stranger [[as he allegedly did) I would fire him on the spot. Personally, It's difficult for me to believe the story.

**TJC** · January-15-11, 02:05 PM

He didnt seem to be very happy with his job, just a point for discussion. I didnt say I believed it, just asked for thoughts.

**milesdriven** · January-18-11, 11:02 AM

We live in Toledo, but will still come to the Detroit casinos because they allow smoking on gaming floors.

**ghettopalmetto** · January-18-11, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by TJC

Interesting thoughts. However, Harrahs will be taking care of the Cinci and Cleaveland Casinos. I am sure that they are a big enough company to make sure revenues stay in Ohio.

Where is Harrah's headquartered again? Oh, that's right--NOT OHIO.

**professorjackson** · January-18-11, 12:34 PM

The Toledo casino is located in the city of Toledo, in property adjacent to the industrial suburb of Rossford. Penn National, which runs Toledo's harness racetrack Raceway Park, is in fact the developer, and that has people worried, given how poorly Raceway Park is run. Will it create development around it? Probably not, since there isn't much room. Will it help downtown [[it isn't that far from downtown)? That's the dream...

**Gambling Man** · January-18-11, 02:25 PM

TJC, the numbers you have quoted are wrong. Dead wrong. I'd like to fire whoever it is just for being so wrong. There is however, no doubt that people will choose where to gamble for convenience. An hour drive or 10 minute drive.....especially if you don't care about smoking is a huge difference. There has been no public comment from any Detroit Casino about the effect of a Toledo Casino.

**Gistok** · January-18-11, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by TJC

Interesting thoughts. However, Harrahs will be taking care of the Cinci and Cleaveland Casinos. I am sure that they are a big enough company to make sure revenues stay in Ohio. I only estimate a higher percentage than 10% because when the snow is flying, and its below zero, I dont see people making the drive to Detroit from Ohio. And once those people get "comfy" there, and see that machine and table wise, Detroit isn't offering anything more than Ohio, many people will stop going to Detroit. The smoking ban in Ohio has been in place long enough for people to get used to it, and when push comes to shove, I dont think it will matter much.

You couldn't be further from the truth.... just how do you think that most folks who come here form Ohio and Indiana get here?? Via Buses!! So your weather argument is a moot point.

Just like Mt. Pleasant casino [[in the cold snowy north)... still gets a very significant number of patrons from metro Detroit... also via [[casino subsidized) coach trips...

Also... casinos patrons can be very loyal to their casinos of choice [[those comps aren't there for the hell of it).