We're #4! Red Wings valued behind Toronto, New York, & Montreal.

**noggin** · January-02-11, 08:11 PM

Forbes shows Red Wings are behind other teams in total return. http://www.forbes.com/lists/2010/31/...gs_314898.html

Karmanos Hurricanes is way low on the list [[#24).

**Lowell** · January-02-11, 08:25 PM

Not surprising, it is a great franchise, has deep history and possibly the best logo in all sports.

The stat I found intriguing was the wins-to-player cost ratio. It is an interesting measure of management. [Wins-to-Player cost ration compares the number of wins per player payroll relative to the rest of the NHL. Postseason wins count twice as much as regular season wins. A score of 120 means that the team achieved 20% more victories per dollar of payroll compared with the league average.]

**schulzte** · January-02-11, 10:58 PM

The Forbes article is interesting. The lockout and subsequent salary cap made the Red Wings much more profitable. It is amazing how profitable the Maple Leafs are, even compared to the Red Wings. Their average ticket was $113 last year [[and that is for some bad hockey!) I looked at all 30 teams, and 16 of them had negative operating income last year. However, the teams that made money made a lot more money than losers lost. A huge proportion of NHL profitability comes from the Rangers, Maple Leafs, and Canadiens.

http://www.newolympia.blogspot.com

**canuck** · January-02-11, 11:00 PM

Originally Posted by Lowell

Not surprising, it is a great franchise, has deep history and possibly the best logo in all sports.

The stat I found intriguing was the wins-to-player cost ratio. It is an interesting measure of management. [Wins-to-Player cost ration compares the number of wins per player payroll relative to the rest of the NHL. Postseason wins count twice as much as regular season wins. A score of 120 means that the team achieved 20% more victories per dollar of payroll compared with the league average.]

Yup, spoken like an artist Lowell, youre damned right about the Wings logo. I like the original six ones best, with the Rangers at the bottom of the list. I got turned off hockey for awhile after some Hollywood joker thought up the name Mighty Ducks for Anaheim.

**1KielsonDrive** · January-03-11, 12:27 AM

Now that Illitch is worth a few billions, I'd like to see him making payments toward the loans we gave him to build a new stadium. Secondly, I'd like him to stop tearing shit down in Detroit. You give a guy a break and he mugs you.

**Gistok** · January-03-11, 01:19 AM

Originally Posted by 1KielsonDrive

Now that Illitch is worth a few billions, I'd like to see him making payments toward the loans we gave him to build a new stadium. Secondly, I'd like him to stop tearing shit down in Detroit. You give a guy a break and he mugs you.

1KielsonDrive... unless you've lost a lot of money at Michigan's Indian gaming casinos... perhaps you can tell us which part of YOUR public financing dollars you want back....

http://www.ballparks.com/baseball/american/detbpk.htm

**1KielsonDrive** · January-03-11, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

1KielsonDrive... unless you've lost a lot of money at Michigan's Indian gaming casinos... perhaps you can tell us which part of YOUR public financing dollars you want back....

http://www.ballparks.com/baseball/american/detbpk.htm

Gistok, further clarification of the point you're trying to make is requested.

**Johnlodge** · January-03-11, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by 1KielsonDrive

Gistok, further clarification of the point you're trying to make is requested.

He's saying you can avoid paying for the stadium by not gambling at Indian casinos, renting a car or staying at a hotel.

Public financing: $115 million, or 38 percent, from 2 percent rental-car tax and 1 percent hotel tax, and money from Indian casino revenue
Private financing: $185 million, or 62 percent, from Tigers owner Mike Ilitch

**Ray1936** · January-03-11, 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by Lowell

Not surprising, it is a great franchise, has deep history and possibly the best logo in all sports.

Couldn't agree more. If you're driving around Las Vegas and spot this car, honk and say hi to Ray1936. [[By the way, I see quite a few of these about town.)

**Gistok** · January-03-11, 05:09 PM

Thanks Johnlodge... I should have told 1KielsonDrive to use the "scroll" function on that link!

Interestingly enough Mike Ilitch doesn't even own Comerica Park... even though he financed more than half of it [[thanks also in part to Comerica who is paying the naming rights). The reason for that is obvious... you can't pay property tax on something that you don't own...

I'm just not sure if the money amounts described on that website include infrastructure improvements or not...

**Johnnny5** · January-03-11, 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by Johnlodge

He's saying you can avoid paying for the stadium by not gambling at Indian casinos, renting a car or staying at a hotel.

Doesn't change the merits of his argument IMO. It's still public tax money that would have been better used elsewhere. Illitch was more than capable of financing Commerica Park on his own, and had we refused to donate monies to the construction he most likely have built Commerica just the same. Had he not, the Tigers would still be playing at Michigan and Trumbull so Detroit would still be benefiting from their presence.

**Downriviera** · January-03-11, 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by Ray1936

Couldn't agree more. If you're driving around Las Vegas and spot this car, honk and say hi to Ray1936. [[By the way, I see quite a few of these about town.)

Have you been to a Las Vegas Wranglers game at the Orleans? I've been to a couple and its pretty good. They're in first place in their division. They are a farm team of the Phoenix Coyotes.

**Ray1936** · January-03-11, 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by Downriviera

Have you been to a Las Vegas Wranglers game at the Orleans? I've been to a couple and its pretty good. They're in first place in their division. They are a farm team of the Phoenix Coyotes.

Yes, I have. Had season tickets a few years back, but got a bit turned off by the horrendously loud rock music during every break in the action. You can't talk to the person next to you except during play. But the ECHL plays good hockey, and I still enjoy a game from time to time.

They get 3 to 5,000 customers a game.

**BShea** · January-03-11, 09:18 PM

Originally Posted by Johnnny5

Doesn't change the merits of his argument IMO. It's still public tax money that would have been better used elsewhere. Illitch was more than capable of financing Commerica Park on his own, and had we refused to donate monies to the construction he most likely have built Commerica just the same. Had he not, the Tigers would still be playing at Michigan and Trumbull so Detroit would still be benefiting from their presence.

Except the public voted to use it that way in 1996. And I'd be willing to wager the site where Comerica and Ford Field sit would not have been re-developed.

**1KielsonDrive** · January-03-11, 11:46 PM

Originally Posted by Johnlodge

He's saying you can avoid paying for the stadium by not gambling at Indian casinos, renting a car or staying at a hotel.

That being the case, if you are correctly making gistok's point, I score high. I don't gamble, don't rent cars or stay at hotels. I'm still not quite clear what that has to do with ..........

**1KielsonDrive** · January-03-11, 11:48 PM

Originally Posted by 1KielsonDrive

That being the case, if you are correctly making gistok's point, I score high. I don't gamble, don't rent cars or stay at hotels. I'm still not quite clear what that has to do with ..........

And I've only been to one game at COPA. I didn't pay for it, a friend from out of town paid.

**1KielsonDrive** · January-03-11, 11:53 PM

Originally Posted by Johnnny5

Doesn't change the merits of his argument IMO. It's still public tax money that would have been better used elsewhere. Illitch was more than capable of financing Commerica Park on his own, and had we refused to donate monies to the construction he most likely have built Commerica just the same. Had he not, the Tigers would still be playing at Michigan and Trumbull so Detroit would still be benefiting from their presence.

Your comments accurately convey my sentiments.

**CLAUDE G** · January-04-11, 02:54 AM

Back 30 years ago, when these teams where not making lots of money, I could see where public financing could be used to construct these facilities. $8 Million to buy the Red Wings, to play in a $56 million dollar Joe Louis arena made sense

The sad thing here is that Comerica Park cost $300 Million dollars to build, and they spent $122 Million dollars on players saleries, and team is currently valued at $292 Million.

A majority of the professional sports teams out there, are making more money than they ever did in the past. They need to start cutting back on players saleries, use that money to finance their own new arenas, and to lower the ticket prices to make things more affordable.

There was nothing really wrong with Tiger Stadium. The only improvement at Comerica park was all the Illitch owned parking, the wider concourses and a few more larger rest rooms which could have all been solved by a $30 million dollar renovation.

As far as building a new Hockey arena, im all for it if Illitch wants to spend his own money. Its intresting that Illitch has $400 Million to buy the Pistons and move them downtown, but would rather use public financing to build the stadium.

Why doesn't Illitch not buy the pistons and build the stadium with the money he was going to buy the pistons for?

If you want to encourage these teams to use their own money to build, don't charge them property taxes for the next 10 or 20 years. The land that stadiums are built on are usually unlikely to be generating tax revenue anyways, so waive the property taxes on a new facility and you can collect additional revenue in the form of sales tax, and from the other businesses that will want to open around the area.

**Gistok** · January-04-11, 03:01 AM

Johnny5 and 1KielsonDrive... if it weren't for items like Cobo or the Stadia... then there wouldn't have been a drink by the glass tax or hotel tax... and you likely wouldn't have saved any money in taxes... unless of course you frequent both local bars and local hotels. And as for Indian Casino revenue.. I'm not sure the state would have asked the Indian Casino's for money just to put into the general fund... [[maybe... maybe not).

So I don't think that we [[taxpayers) would have gained much in that regard.

Claude G.... I do believe that even if Mike Ilitch pays for his own arena... it will still be publicly owned, similar to Comerica Park and Ford Field.