Americans serving in foreign military service

**Patrick** · January-01-11, 06:21 PM

In 2010 alone I met a good number of American-born people who served in the armed forces of other nations. Several served in the French Foreign Legion, Canadian Forces, and especially the IDF. I am unable to fully understand why someone who is born here in the USA would show more loyalty to another nation. Questions about loyalty will persist and a lack of trust in these individuals will grow.

What is your opinion on this matter? Should Americans be stripped of their citizenship or punished for choosing another country over the States?

http://travel.state.gov/law/citizens...nship_780.html

http://www.ehow.com/how_5785771_join...-military.html

**East Detroit** · January-02-11, 01:33 AM

They served "especially in the IDF"? How does one serve "especially" in a certain military unit?

Or is your problem "especially" with the IDF?

All three you named are allies of the United States.

**Patrick** · January-02-11, 10:43 AM

I'd like to see you say that to a wounded veteran. Can you explain why American-born people have a loyalty to another country? It's a slap in the face to ALL American veterans and to the men and women currently serving the armed forces. It don't mean shit if they are allies. If you have that belief then I bet you feel that Jonathan Pollard is innocent. After all, they were just allies that he spied for.

**Patrick** · January-02-11, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by East Detroit

They served "especially in the IDF"? How does one serve "especially" in a certain military unit?

Or is your problem "especially" with the IDF?

All three you named are allies of the United States.

After China and Russia, Israel is the most active spy in the US. We got some great allies eh?

**Steve** · January-02-11, 10:54 AM

Reciprocity should be the determining principle. Whatever US policy is regarding foreigners and dual citizens serving in the US armed forces should be reflected in policy regarding the opposite direction.

**jcole** · January-02-11, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by East Detroit

They served "especially in the IDF"? How does one serve "especially" in a certain military unit?

Or is your problem "especially" with the IDF?

All three you named are allies of the United States.

Did you know that prior to WWI, many US citizens signed up with Great Britain, Canada and France to be able to defend countries that they felt needed the help? This is a long standing practice.

**East Detroit** · January-02-11, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by Patrick

After China and Russia, Israel is the most active spy in the US. We got some great allies eh?

Ahhh, the truth comes out.

I knew the "especially" was there for a reason.

Israel is an ally of the United States. Apparently, that bothers you.

**Patrick** · January-02-11, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by East Detroit

Ahhh, the truth comes out.

I knew the "especially" was there for a reason.

Israel is an ally of the United States. Apparently, that bothers you.

Hilarious...you probably served in the IDF. Like I said before, I'd love to see you go and justify that to a guy who had his legs blown off in Iraq. You still haven't explained why it's ok for an American-born citizen to serve in a foreign nation's military. Don't give me the "bu bu but they are allies" bullshit song and dance. Why would an American--born citizen want to serve in the Candian Forces or any other military? Perhaps I can see the Israel thing but can't understand any other nation.

**Patrick** · January-02-11, 01:22 PM

Take American-born Rahm Emanuel as an example. During the Gulf War he rushed over to Israel and joined the IDF. What, the American Army wasn't good enough for him? The last time checked, Israel and Canada wern't states but I could be mistaken..

**oldredfordette** · January-02-11, 01:34 PM

Rahm "Fuck You" Emanuel has dual citizenship. And we send enough money to Israel for them to count as a state. We probably give more to Israel than we do to Puerto Rico. But I digress.

**ghettopalmetto** · January-02-11, 02:09 PM

It seems like Patrick is using this not as an opportunity to find answers, but as a way to say "fuck you" to people who risk their lives for what they believe.

A few points to consider:

1. Some of these Americans serving in foreign military units may, in fact, have dual citizenship. Others may be living abroad, and seek to defend the nation in which they live and pay taxes. Did you ever consider this possibility?

2. Patrick completely discounts foreigners who have fought for the American armed forces, dating back to the Revolution. Have you ever heard of a nation called "France", who dispatched military engineers to our aid when we had none? Perhaps you should read about Tadeusz Kosciuszko and Casimir Pulaski. Pulaski died for OUR nation, not for his native Poland. My great grandfather, an immigrant from Poland, fought for the United States in World War I, 30 years prior to becoming naturalized. But I suppose none of this counts because it doesn't fit your one-sided view of AMERICA FUCK YEAH!

3. Other nations have policies stating that citizenship is automatically revoked upon service in a foreign military. For example, while researching my family history, I discovered that Poland grants citizenship on a hereditary basis--regardless of the place of birth. Which means there are likely people in the United States who are Polish citizens and do not even know it. This citizenship is revoked, however, upon enlistment in a foreign military.

4. The stated policy [[as noted in the link) is that U.S. citizenship may be revoked if an American is fighting for forces *that are hostile to the United States*. Sounds like that problem is solved, yes?

**Steve** · January-02-11, 02:55 PM

What branch of the armed forces did you serve in, Patrick?

**Jimaz** · January-02-11, 06:40 PM

I can imagine specific situations where it would be damaging to the U.S. for its citizens to serve in a foreign military. I can also imagine specific situations where it would be beneficial to the U.S. Shouldn't it be decided on a case by case basis?

Also, how would a firm like Blackwater [[Xe) fit into all this? Weren't they planning an escape to the UAE? What if someone decided to hire them to operate against U.S. interests? Are multinational corporations exempt from these kinds of objections? That seems a much more interesting and important question.

**Johnnny5** · January-02-11, 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by East Detroit

They served "especially in the IDF"? How does one serve "especially" in a certain military unit?

Or is your problem "especially" with the IDF?

All three you named are allies of the United States.

Do you think the American survivors from the U.S.S Liberty consider Israel an "Ally" ?

**Steve** · January-02-11, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by Patrick

Army and you?

I haven't served in the armed forces.

**Steve** · January-02-11, 10:38 PM

[quote=Jimaz;211635]I can imagine specific situations where it would be damaging to the U.S. for its citizens to serve in a foreign military. I can also imagine specific situations where it would be beneficial to the U.S. Shouldn't it be decided on a case by case basis?

In theory, yes, but I don't think it would be practical. As I mentioned above, I think, that whatever our policy is regarding foreigners in our armed services should be reflected in our policy regarding Americans serving in the armed forces of other countries.

**oladub** · January-02-11, 11:34 PM

"Military service in foreign countries usually does not cause loss of citizenship since an intention to relinquish citizenship normally is lacking. In adjudicating loss of nationality cases, the Department has established an administrative presumption that a person serving in the armed forces of a foreign state not engaged in hostilities against the United States does not have the intention to relinquish citizenship. Voluntary service in the armed forces of a state engaged in hostilities against the United States could be viewed as indicative of an intention to relinquish U.S. citizenship." http://travel.state.gov/law/citizens...nship_780.html

The dual citizens least likely to put America first are those who come from Muslim countries and Mexican-Americans.

In response to a survey of newly naturalized citizens in Los Angeles, 90 percent of Muslim immigrants said that if there were a conflict between the United States and their country of origin, they would be inclined to support their country of origin, said John Fonte of the Hudson Institute". http://www.post-gazette.com/nation/2...dual0515p4.asp

I'm not a Rahm fan but he wasn't in the Israeli Army. Michael Chernoff, the former head of the Dept. of Homeland Security, is also a dual citizen of Israel. That really isn't a position for a dual citizen.

**canuck** · January-03-11, 12:57 AM

Hey Patrick,

Breathe in, now breathe out.

This from Wikipedia under the heading «Vietnam Veteran»

Canadian veterans
During the Vietnam era, more than 30,000 Canadians served in the US armed forces; 110 Canadians died in Vietnam and seven are listed as missing in action. Fred Graffen, military historian with the Canadian War Museum, estimated in Vietnam Magazine [[Perspectives) that approximately 12,000 of these personnel actually served in Vietnam. Most of these were natives of Canada who lived in the United States. The military of Canada did not officially participate in the war effort, as it was appointed to the UN truce commissions and thus had to remain officially neutral in the conflict.
The numbers of US conscientious objectors, draft dodgers and deserters that went to Canada is estimated to be between 30,000 and 70,000 by most authorities. Some foreign nationals volunteered for the US military, but many more were US permanent residents, who were subject to the draft, if they were male, of draft age, and not otherwise deferred or exempt from service.

**oldredfordette** · January-03-11, 07:57 AM

According to the BBC website:
A practising Jew, Mr Emanuel's Israeli heritage has prompted positive headlines in Israel, where some were concerned earlier in the election campaign about the likely direction of Mr Obama's Middle East policy
Rahm Emanuel's father, Benjamin, is an Israeli-born doctor who was once a member of the Irgun, a hard-line group which fought for Israeli independence until 1948 as was branded as a terrorist organisation by the British colonial authorities.
The prospective chief-of-staff himself volunteered to serve in Israel's army during the first Gulf War of 1991 - rust-proofing brakes in northern military bases, Israeli media reports.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7702408.stm

Not fighting but serving.

**Papasito** · January-04-11, 04:27 PM

My Great Uncle [[Grandfather's Older Brother) went to Australia to fight the Nazis & Imperialists [[Germany and Japan) before Pearl Harbor, because America was staying out of the conflicts. His father had moved to the US from Italy in the early 1900's, and he wanted to see his homeland liberated from the Nazis, even if he had to enlist in the army of another nation to help do it.

**Johnlodge** · January-04-11, 05:21 PM

Hilarious...you probably served in the IDF.

That's quite the logic jump.

Chuck La Chez · January-04-11, 06:48 PM

Originally Posted by Patrick

I am unable to fully understand why someone who is born here in the USA would show more loyalty to another nation.

Blues singers would tour Europe because the U.S. hated them. Maybe it's sort of like that.

**East Detroit** · January-10-11, 10:50 PM

Originally Posted by Patrick

Hilarious...you probably served in the IDF. Like I said before, I'd love to see you go and justify that to a guy who had his legs blown off in Iraq. You still haven't explained why it's ok for an American-born citizen to serve in a foreign nation's military. Don't give me the "bu bu but they are allies" bullshit song and dance. Why would an American--born citizen want to serve in the Candian Forces or any other military? Perhaps I can see the Israel thing but can't understand any other nation.

Hilarious how you're getting away with all the personal attacks in this thread, including calling someone an asshole. Ran out of premise for your "argument"?

By the way, I served in the United States Navy. Did I also serve in the IDF? I doubt you served at all, because most people I know who have served do not undermine other veterans, either domestic or ally. Want a reason people serve mother before country?

**GOAT** · January-11-11, 09:24 AM

Patrick,
As a person who was going to go join the US Army the second time around even though I am Canadian [[and first joined up in 1991); I can tell you why I was going to serve another country.

It had nothing to do with serving another country and instead was about serving for a particular cause. In my case I thought the war in Afghanistan was and still is justified. I believe people have a right to choose their way off life without the threat of violence hanging on their every move. I beleive people have a right to education without the threat of violence hanging over them. To me, education erases racism, sexism and allows people to combat injustices in the world.

I would have served that purpose in the US Army. But I did feel a little apprehensive in serving another country with another country's flag on my arm. However since Canada was there [[and still is for the time being) I opted for Canada's army [[only to be sold out).

I think another reason people wish to serve another country is for the opportunity; career-wise in the armed forces or the ability to learn a new trade. Some countries don't have that luxury and in many cases the armed forces may be full in any one particular career choice. Therefore the candidate seeks those opportunities elsewhere.

I don't think people want to serve another country [[unless they have a relation to that nation), I believe people choose their opportunities.

**Gannon** · January-11-11, 11:32 AM

I am less concerned over uniformed military than I am over mercenaries, like Blackwater/Xe.

While I appreciate your sentiment, Patrick, there doesn't seem to be any hidden agendas.

Many who come to the US remain most loyal to the countries of their ancestors...even moreso if they were born there.

It is in the genes...and perhaps the way they got here...and then what has happened to this country in the meanwhile.