SoundBoard at Motor City Casino an Embarrassment!

[Gannon]

I hope they up their game for concerts, but at tonight's Red Wings viewing party there were SO many things wrong with the image and sound it was a joke.

At least I hope so, or I'm embarrassed for what passes as sound and video reinforcement at the professional level. I'm HOPING they hire professionals, but the evidence is thin.

They had one huge projector shining on a screen at the back of the stage, then four flanking it, two for the upper seats, the others for the lower.

The middle main one was the ancient 1.33:1 aspect ratio [[height versus width, this ratio the old original Academy Standard which Hollywood has been trying to forget since the fifties, but the only one we knew at home until HDTV came along)...all of the others squished that same geometry into the new HD rectangular 1.78:1 screens, making EVERYONE look short and squat, as anything round turned oval. Like the Wings logo. I'm sure they spent all those dollars to have their image warped due to ignorance.


Only ONE had the proper color temperature, or 'tint' of the white-gray-black scale which is the foundation of every other color in the image. It was EASY to spot, since we all know what ice looks like! Think basically of the shade of paper put through a printer, a bluish white will emphasize certain colors in the spectrum...while reddish white would emphasize those at the opposite end. Only one had bluish ice, the others a dingy pink or red.

Two of them were OUT OF FOCUS. That is projector setup 101! First thing a technician should learn after plugging the damn things in. I couldn't believe this.

All of them had horribly low black levels, so the shadows were overwhelming. This is unfortunately all too common.

The only one with a fresh, bright, young bulb was the lower right projector, which shone decidedly brighter and more accurately than the others. [[this basic maintenance concern might've been part of the trouble with the grayscale, too, since the bulb dictates the quality of the color along with peak white level, which many call brightness, but residentially has always been adjusted via contrast...don't get me started on that!)


The main screen had desaturated color enough to make the Wings jerseys look black and white! You could barely see some colors in the ads around the perimeter of the rink. Again, MILLIONS are spent on logos and corporate identities...all wasted on this incorrect setting on the projector or video processor/switcher.


The sound was also quite poor, but THAT could be due the broadcast. It was thin and shrill and piercing...which leads me to believe it was the overall equalization of the speaker array. The sound person should've been able to make subtle changes through their amazing mixer, they ALL have tone controls for each input. Some quite elaborate, but simple bass and treble would've sufficed.

It was also way too loud, but I haven't been in any venue in the last five years that didn't send me burying my fingers in my ears in the rare instances I forgot my earplugs. Like tonight. I will never again visit another venue without my trusty Radio Shack Sound Pressure Level meter.

Plus, the array was designed to merely blast monaural sound throughout the house, when a simple angling would spread stereo to everyone. With the timing of when this system was installed, it should've been surround sound, too...like Alvin's or St. Andrews Hall. But too many sound folk remain back in the 50s with sound, too. Mono is dead everywhere but with live music. Damn shame.


So, yeah, I'd LOVE to hear if anyone has had stellar experiences at concerts there, because tonight's experience leads me to believe they really don't have the first clue on how to operate the gear in that joint. Perhaps they only had the second or third string in for this gig.

At least two of the projectors could have been rentals, on the lower levels. They were different brands than the installed ones. They were the best image of the five, the lower right one the only really enjoyable one.

As long as I had fingers in my ears.


Embarrassing to all involved. They should be called onto the carpet for this one...and if management doesn't realize how shitty their presentation was tonight...then perhaps they should hire this ex-Technical Editor of a national hifi magazine to teach them what it should all look and sound like.

It would be my pleasure. Cash upfront, though.

No chips.

[mcsdetroitfriend]

As a professional sound engineer who's worked for both hotel/casino and cruise ships I can tell you chances are the house sound guy doesn't have a clue how to tune a room. Most guys that join the a/v department in a hotel/cruise ship setting have done so because it looks fun, so they move up from other departments through cross training. They're simply taught how to make sound come out of the console, they don't have ears.

Concerts at the venue would be another issue because most touring packages will come with their own sound engineer [[like my self) who would come with a technical rider [[a list of what is needed to make the show run), and will tune a room using what's called pink-noise [[all the frequencies in the audible spectrum at the same volume at once) and a frequency analyzer. Then we'll use our ears to make the band/artist sound the best possible using the room as a friend.

On the other hand it could've been the broadcast, if the video was so poor chances are the feed from the broadcast wasn't much better. Maybe a pair of RCA jacks at best...

[Gannon]

Thanks for that reply. I'm pretty well studied in the various colors of noise spectrum tests. White, pink, brown...all have their purposes.

If you are not using transient test tones as well as steady-state, then you are only putting bandaids on haphazardly...but the installing engineer should already have those transient measurements done and perfect...especially in a venue like this one.

I'd LOVE to learn your experiences traveling...what houses 'got it' and which didn't have a clue.


Do you ever use the Pan Pots on the mixers you twiddle?! Do you think you could get a usable recording off the board output?

Or do you believe what they taught you about there being too many echoes and too many off-axis seats for it to be worth the effort beyond mere mono?!


And, do you do your mixdown through isolating earphones, ever? Have you ever heard of Etymotic Research? I'm NOT talking noise canceling, either, just earplugs with earphone inserts...equalized for the ear canal.

What is the maximum SPL you allow out of the system? How closely do you watch it during a show?!


I'm curious. Critical, but curious. Happy to have this chance to talk about it publicly. I'm sure I'm going to learn something.


Cheers

[Gannon]

The video was obviously HD, but the aspect ratio constrained to fit an incorrect main screen...which made all the others suffer the geometric distortion. Solution was to raise the main screen to BE the same aspect ratio as the others, then set the source to 1.78:1. Each projector needed to be calibrated with test signals and at LEAST matched.


[[white noise is equal per frequency, pink is per octave...more useful for quickie in-field measurements...brown better for home environments where SPL would likely be more reasonable)

[Patrick]

Gannon, sounds like they need to hire you for the job!

[Gannon]

I dunno if I want to be slaved to one organization, Patrick. They can rent my expertise, I'd rather train a half-dozen people in one day than have to be there EVERY day. I cannot imagine what it would be like to have to sit through music I don't like...dealing with prima donnas all damn night. That takes a personality I don't possess...I am not the most accommodating of people when I've got a high-stress job to do.


Just thought about this one, due to the image truncation to fit HD onto the huge square screen, all of the action captured by the HD camera's 'wings' was simply lost. If I just got my pre-caffeine sleep-deprived math right, they cut off 25% of the image, then squished it onto the rectangular screen with incorrect geometry. It is all part of the learning curve between the old NTSC video format and the new ATSC High Definition standard.


Yeah, I can critique, and I can teach how to get it right. I am putting my efforts into making Buddy Smith and McKinley Jackson and the old Motown session guys sound great...and am currently planning a recording facility for downtown. It will be used for research also, and analysis of hifi and video gear for the consumer marketplace for my new magazine.

I'd rather help create a hundred and fifty jobs than merely take someone else's. I'd rather help THEM get better at their work, so everyone can get the most out of the performances.

I'd rather develop a standard way of everyone getting digital memories of everything they experience, so at least we can make them stop waving their damn iPhones and Droids above the crowd like a bunch of zombies.

Although, oddly, this sort of behavior was being encouraged, even in the invitation to this event. Seems they think social media sharing of imagery showing people having fun will promote the next technological fiasco!

They use the same speaker array as the Crofoot up in Pontiac [[if maybe a scaled-larger version with a few more modules). I think they should drive up there and learn how it sounds well-equalized! LOL...but even their sound person runs it to eleven!

My ears are still ringing this morning...there is no way that should happen with a sound system that has a volume control. It was a damn game, not a concert. It would be a nice study to measure the SPLs at a live game versus what they reproduce at SoundBoard...a place where by their very NAME you'd think 'gets it'.

Perhaps THAT is my greatest disappointment. Place named after the single most important piece of gear in the joint should act like they know how to use it.

[REL]

You all do realize they're not in the music business, right? Pass me some of those chip$.

[Gannon]

What?!

Anyone who advertises live performances and stages them is in the music business.

It may not be their highest priority...but it is must be one of them.

If not, they are doing the performers and audience a disservice or worse.


Just taking their money with only the unbroken promise of return.

Wait a minute...

[Gannon]

Somebody just told me that they don't OWN the soundboard at SoundBoard. They bring IN all the gear for each and every show. Rental.

With the rigging I saw, that simply cannot be true.

Anyone have the skinny on this?!

Might be tied to that 'personal property tax' we talked about on another thread.


If so, I would specifically mount a campaign to get that tax excused for improvements in infrastructure for technology in venues, if we want to make this a serious music town. That could spur some serious economic growth...which we'd all reap benefits from for years.

[mcsdetroitfriend]

Somebody just told me that they don't OWN the soundboard at SoundBoard. They bring IN all the gear for each and every show. Rental.

With the rigging I saw, that simply cannot be true.

Anyone have the skinny on this?!

Might be tied to that 'personal property tax' we talked about on another thread.


If so, I would specifically mount a campaign to get that tax excused for improvements in infrastructure for technology in venues, if we want to make this a serious music town. That could spur some serious economic growth...which we'd all reap benefits from for years.

I'll reply to your other questions when I have a bit more time, family's over, 6 sets of aunts and uncles, endless cousins, craziness...

But chances are they have a permanent rigging and attach points in the house so all any rental production company has to do - depending on what's required of the show technically - is show up, attach speakers at the fly points, and connect the console. Chances are the only permanent things at the venue are the stage snakes, amplifiers, and rigging for flying speakers.

Most houses [[not all) downtown have a permanent PA system that can be swapped out if the tour package brings their own gear, or the purchaser/promoter has the budget to follow the tech request sheet. So say the Fillmore: they have their own console, the formidable Yamaha PM5D, which is used for most shows, however when I came through with an artist once we had the budget to bring our own console and just attached at the mix position. Most places will keep the speakers since they've been tuned to a room, but like I said bigger productions will bring in their own, or in the case of my local theater in Tecumseh, when a touring artist comes in the local production house Vision LLC will come with their JBL line arrays, amps, console, monitor console, mics, monitors, everything. The whole house gets tuned the night before show, and everything sounds fantastic, but in that case the owner of Vision, Joe, knows the room, and has been in the business for over 30 years and has the knowledge to go along with it.

Wonder who got that rental contract? Maybe because it was just an a/v thing they sent an intern or something like that

[Gannon]

I'm wondering.

Enjoy your holiday!

Who makes those stacked array speakers...are those JBL Pro products? They use 'em up at the Crofoot, too.

[Wesley Mouch]

I'm wondering.

Who makes those stacked array speakers...are those JBL Pro products? They use 'em up at the Crofoot, too.

Soundboard has a D&B Line Array, and a digital console [[Digico I believe).

It is a permanent install. Doesn't mean that everyone uses it.

The equipment was furnished by SAVI, of upstate NY. Their a fine firm. And it is fine equipment. And it was well-installed. Your mileage may vary by operator, act, source material, wear & tear...

Dozens of companies make 'stacked array speakers' known as line array. L'accoustic's V-DOSC was the first.

"V-Dosc is a French acronym . The "V" in V- Dosc refers to the V-shaped acoustic lens configuration employed for the mid and high frequency sections. The " Dosc" stands for " Diffuser d' Onde Sonore Cylindrique "- in English this means Cylindrical Wave Generator."

Other popular manufacturers include Meyer [[Berkley CA), JBL, EAW.

They are a major advance in audio delivery -- but they don't make sound better any more than a pencil makes you Phillip Johnson.

Merry Christmas to all.

[gopher]

I worked at a conference center, 99% of customers use 4:3. I imagine thats why the user these projectors, as they probably grabbed them from the banquet center. I cant speak for other types of events.

[DetroitDad]

Well Gannon, I think you answered your own question. I'm not sure I've met too many people who would like to sit through music they don't like, dealing with prima donnas all damn night.

I dunno if I want to be slaved to one organization, Patrick. They can rent my expertise, I'd rather train a half-dozen people in one day than have to be there EVERY day. I cannot imagine what it would be like to have to sit through music I don't like...dealing with prima donnas all damn night. That takes a personality I don't possess...I am not the most accommodating of people when I've got a high-stress job to do.


Just thought about this one, due to the image truncation to fit HD onto the huge square screen, all of the action captured by the HD camera's 'wings' was simply lost. If I just got my pre-caffeine sleep-deprived math right, they cut off 25% of the image, then squished it onto the rectangular screen with incorrect geometry. It is all part of the learning curve between the old NTSC video format and the new ATSC High Definition standard.


Yeah, I can critique, and I can teach how to get it right. I am putting my efforts into making Buddy Smith and McKinley Jackson and the old Motown session guys sound great...and am currently planning a recording facility for downtown. It will be used for research also, and analysis of hifi and video gear for the consumer marketplace for my new magazine.

I'd rather help create a hundred and fifty jobs than merely take someone else's. I'd rather help THEM get better at their work, so everyone can get the most out of the performances.

I'd rather develop a standard way of everyone getting digital memories of everything they experience, so at least we can make them stop waving their damn iPhones and Droids above the crowd like a bunch of zombies.

Although, oddly, this sort of behavior was being encouraged, even in the invitation to this event. Seems they think social media sharing of imagery showing people having fun will promote the next technological fiasco!

They use the same speaker array as the Crofoot up in Pontiac [[if maybe a scaled-larger version with a few more modules). I think they should drive up there and learn how it sounds well-equalized! LOL...but even their sound person runs it to eleven!

My ears are still ringing this morning...there is no way that should happen with a sound system that has a volume control. It was a damn game, not a concert. It would be a nice study to measure the SPLs at a live game versus what they reproduce at SoundBoard...a place where by their very NAME you'd think 'gets it'.

Perhaps THAT is my greatest disappointment. Place named after the single most important piece of gear in the joint should act like they know how to use it.

[Gannon]

I appreciate that, Gopher, but the ONLY 1.33:1 projector was the MAIN one. All of the others were on 1.78:1 screens, and were new enough to have native HD resolution imagers. The two upstairs were Christie Digital, downstairs looked like Digital Projection or maybe Barco. I couldn't get close enough to the main one to see what it was, but the front end was similar to the Christie's. Regardless, unless they purchased these items used, since this place was built THIS DECADE, they all should've been full HD...if not 1080p, since it is EASY to convert 1080i to P...that is how the chips work, the video merely has to be 'doubled' or de-interlaced. [[line 'doublers' have always been misnamed, too, but Yves Faroudja stopped correcting people once his invention finally began to sell!)


Those other four ancillary projectors suffered having to be fed the same bastardized signal as the main one, which could SURELY have been fed a 1.78:1 HD signal...and if it were a native1.33 imager, there would've been 'black or gray bars' on the top and bottom of the picture which could've been blanked out by raising the screen so it didn't hit the floor.

Only reason to have it go all the way down would be to cover some nasty rear-stagewall reflections back into the audience...or to keep the image low enough for most to see without neck strain. If there was a compromise choice between seeing even gray bars or all the other sets being fucked up, you can hear which way I'd go I hope. If there are reflection issues, they picked the wrong stage designer as well! ALL stages have lights shining upon them, even without projectors!


DetroitDad, I feel ya. With a staff of 3 highly-trained individuals, each bidding on the nights they WANT to work first, then each being assigned the unwanted ones in rotation, that could be mitigated. I'd rather have 3 part-timers who were interested in the performances, and getting the MOST out of them each night, than ONE solid full-timer who was a grumpy disgruntled deaf lout who barely cared to even go anywhere but straight up to eleven...in mono. LOL.

A whole BUNCH of aggravation can be saved by using and mixing through earplugs with tuned earphones built-in, when you turn the headphone level all the way DOWN on the mixer you barely have to hear the performance...but enough sneaks through to keep you from sleeping! I fail to see why in-ear mixing hasn't become the STANDARD for those professionals who want to keep their hearing intact for a normal range through life. Pop them out to check the house mix, then right back in to insure the BEST stereo micro-mix, since the ear-brain mechanism wouldn't be forced into protection due the SPLs. I've been doing it that way for YEARS, to some of the highest compliments...mostly that the crowd had NEVER heard that band or performer sound as good, as clear.

The ear-brain changes significantly after even a short period of high-SPLs, but the recovery to normal gets longer with each duration of volume attack. So, keeping the ears protected from that high volume would be both OSHA-smart AND good mixing practice. The results are all win-win, with a very small investment up front. Ear doctors ALL love this concept, they'd much rather meet each of us before we've LOST our hearing.

You never want to put all your eggs in one person's lap anyways. If they can't make it, you are doomed! If they leave you, because THEY become the prima dona and start demanding outrageous things, then you are even worse off!


Wesley,
Thanks for the feedback. If that fine firm wants to maintain their reputation, then they should put some limits in place...locking down the equalizer/house reverb and final gains at least. Just like with home electronics retailer/installers, if the final product doesn't work all the time, they haven't done their job fully.

I agree that the best of gear does NOT make an automatic Picasso or Mozart. But a company like Motor City Casino should be able to find a few artists on the soundboard for a joint CALLED the SoundBoard. Wouldn't you say?!


Cheers

[Zacha341]

Agreed... I am not familiar with the techno aspect being discussed [[not my field) but I do know bad sound when I hear it at concerts. Yeah, if your hosting events like this your in the music business and should have the proper equipment and staff to run it and customize sound per event.

What?!

Anyone who advertises live performances and stages them is in the music business.

It may not be their highest priority...but it is must be one of them.

If not, they are doing the performers and audience a disservice or worse.


Just taking their money with only the unbroken promise of return.

Wait a minute...

[Gannon]

There was nothing in the current lineup of Christie Digital that even closely resembled the ceiling and main units...but many that were similar to the lower two that were the better images. So I amend my comments above that the best pictures were produced by projectors that looked like NEW Christie Digitals, along with their main competitors mentioned above.

The local Christie rep should be selling the casino some new bulbs and probably a maintenance program as well.

[Gannon]

[[shameless BUMP! so a few others can easily find this thread)


I'm wondering if I should try them again for the next viewing party...see if anything has changed. I think it is coming up this week...might be a bit slower because Osgood made his 400th already.

[Gannon]

I got a reply from my on-line comment from Motor City Casino today.

They indeed DO own the gear, and have trained professionals running it.

I wanted to specifically correct the earlier commentary and guesses and hearsay.


Looking for to the next viewing party...I'll be in the wings watching the Wings.


Cheers

[buildingsofdetroit]

At least I hope so, or I'm embarrassed for what passes as sound and video reinforcement at the professional level. I'm HOPING they hire professionals, but the evidence is thin.

Considering the Ilitches own it, they'd probably insist that taxpayers pay for it. Lord knows those billionaires can't be troubled to spend their OWN money in this town.

[Wesley Mouch]

Considering the Ilitches own it, they'd probably insist that taxpayers pay for it. Lord knows those billionaires can't be troubled to spend their OWN money in this town.

Doesn't appear to me that they INSIST that taxpayers pay for it. But rather they appear to use existing programs for which they qualify.

Why on earth wouldn't they.

They can spend BOTH their own and your money, and get more done.

If you want to stop this, just stop funding these development programs.

[Gannon]

Wes,

It is hardly worth the effort with some who have SUCH a hard-on against the injustices they perceive.

Heck, I'm on the fence, too, if you caught my immediate jump to the jugular on the Dropping D thread and their lawsuit to protect the Tiger's trademark from wanton abuse ringing in the New Year.

But then again, that IS the beauty of posting on an internet forum...those who remain behind anonymity can toss shit-piles around without any form of retribution, until they piss off a moderator one too many times.


I'm laughing at the response of the fellow I'm talking with there now...he wants to see my list of manufacturer's accreditations, when I'm SURE his folks can produce credentials...enough to GET their jobs.

But I SAW that they didn't learn enough to know how to fit all those manufacturer's products together and play them properly.

So, I'm at an impasse. I WANT to help. I KNOW I know more than they do, with integration between manufacturers and especially with making nearly any source material shine and sound right...and with ergonomics between the equipment and the mere humans who have to use it.

Those are the things which manufacturers usually cannot and DO NOT train for, because they can ONLY know their stuff thoroughly.

It is obvious they need help...but apparently not yet to some. When it is right, though, then the sound and image people can once again become invisible, where they belong!

Cheers and more on this amazingly chilly morning.