Motor City to Rail City; Can Streetcars Save Detroit?

[DetroitDad]

This duel set of stories is part of a CNN series on transit, dubbed "On The Move".

Can streetcars save America's cities?



STORY HIGHLIGHTS

• Obama administration touts streetcars as a way to vitalize urban economies
• Feds offer $130 million to cities in Texas, Missouri, North Carolina and Ohio
• Supporters: Streetcars will create jobs, cut pollution, reduce traffic, shrink oil dependence
• Opponents: Streetcar programs waste tax money that could be spent on road improvements

Click here to link to the full story, which includes photos, videos, and interactive transit and commuting data maps.

New transit for Motor City



DETROIT [[CNNMoney.com) -- Can Motor City combat its economic ills by becoming Rail City?

Along Detroit's Woodward Avenue, a downtown stretch that seems permanently stuck in the "emerging" phase of business development, community leaders are hoping a new light rail system will help spark a renaissance. The city plans to break ground this year on stage one of a $420 million project: the first modern, mass-transit initiative in a city long synonymous with automobiles....

The rest can be read by clicking here.

[DetroitPlanner]

Not without the appropriate land use conditions being put into place or economic incentives for businesses or people to locate here. Note that an economic incentive does not equate to corporate welfare, it relates to the business climate.

[Mikeg]

From the first linked article:

CNN iReporter Raymond Becich is a supporter. "Sure, Portland paid incentives to businesses to build along the streetcar [[line)," he said. "But how is this any different than any governmental jurisdiction giving tax breaks and other incentives for businesses to relocate to a city or state?"

Hmmmm. .... The reporters are now quoting themselves to provide the advocate's point of view on a story that they are supposedly reporting on! Was there a shortage of ordinary folks willing to be quoted as supporters? What a piece of journalistic rubbish!

And oh, by the way, I thought the major selling point offered by streetcar supporters has always been "build it and they will come" - meaning the tax dollars used to build the streetcar system will spur new development along the route and generate new tax revenues to the local government. However, in practice it's apparently "build it and they will come after you also award them property tax incentives".

From the second linked article, which was written more than 10 months ago:

The first, privately financed phase -- built and operated by the M1 consortium -- plans to start construction by the end of this year and have trains running by 2012.

Did I miss the groundbreaking?

[professorscott]

From the first linked article:

CNN iReporter Raymond Becich is a supporter. "Sure, Portland paid incentives to businesses to build along the streetcar [[line)," he said. "But how is this any different than any governmental jurisdiction giving tax breaks and other incentives for businesses to relocate to a city or state?"

Hmmmm. .... The reporters are now quoting themselves to provide the advocate's point of view on a story that they are supposedly reporting on! Was there a shortage of ordinary folks willing to be quoted as supporters? What a piece of journalistic rubbish!

Unfortunately a common problem nowadays in electronic media. There are too many news channels and not enough real journalistic talent. Remember when goaltending in the NHL really sucked for a while after expansion? Same problem here.

And oh, by the way, I thought the major selling point offered by streetcar supporters has always been "build it and they will come" - meaning the tax dollars used to build the streetcar system will spur new development along the route and generate new tax revenues to the local government. However, in practice it's apparently "build it and they will come after you also award them property tax incentives".

I'm a supporter, so let me put it this way: if we're being totally honest, what we ought to say is this. We would like to see redevelopment in such and such a neighborhood or corridor. We don't think typical tax incentives will be enough because things have come to the point there's no particular reason to locate a business complex or condo development in that spot. If we build a light rail line, that will create enough of a physical change to the environment that the incentive programs will do what we want them to do; and since the incentives are time-limited, over time we eventually recapture the investment represented by the lost income of the incentives.

But the more rah-rah people aren't as willing to fully disclose; that's where you get "build it and they will come".

I suspect in the case of Woodward, the light rail line by itself will be enough to spur development downtown, just north of downtown, right near Wayne State, and possibly right near Grand Boulevard. Anywhere else along the line, things have got so bad that you either need incentives of some kind, or you need to be patient and wait for the development to spread on its own. And, as has already been remarked upon here, it can't happen at all without Detroit and Highland Park looking at their land use policies.

From the second linked article, which was written more than 10 months ago:

The first, privately financed phase -- built and operated by the M1 consortium -- plans to start construction by the end of this year and have trains running by 2012.

Did I miss the groundbreaking?

That statement was true of plans at that time. Since then, the "M1 Rail" project and the City's "DTOGS" project have merged. The big incorrect assumption by M1 Rail is that they could build without undergoing the Federal environmental reviews, since they weren't taking Uncle Sugar's money. But because the privately-raised money was to be used as matching funds for the bigger City project, the Fed decided they couldn't just skip part of the Federal process.

So M1 Rail and DTOGS merged, and the project is now undergoing the Federal environmental review, which I think should be completed by about April or May of 2011. M1 Rail has been ready to break ground for quite a while, but they have to go through this first. A little silly if you ask me [[there were rails on Woodward for sixty years), but then I'm not the Fed.

[Russix]

...
And oh, by the way, I thought the major selling point offered by streetcar supporters has always been "build it and they will come" - meaning the tax dollars used to build the streetcar system will spur new development along the route and generate new tax revenues to the local government. However, in practice it's apparently "build it and they will come after you also award them property tax incentives".
...

First we haven't found out if this will be called a streetcar line or a light rail system, so lets just call it "yet to be determined". If your really really going to attract investment in areas that were previously thought to be uninvestable, why not do everything possible to attract investment? Improving transit helps alot to improve the business enviroment, adding tax incentives on top of it only speeds the process along.

[professorscott]

First we haven't found out if this will be called a streetcar line or a light rail system, so lets just call it "yet to be determined".

From everything I've seen, it seems likely that what gets built will physically be more "light rail-ish" than "streetcar-ish" in terms of the vehicles. In terms of the service, it is almost certainly going to function as a light rail line north of Grand Boulevard, and probably function as something in between light rail and streetcar from that point south to wherever it ends near downtown.

That's not an absolute certainty, but I wouldn't bet against it.

[muskie1]

I don't think any means of surface rail that has the potential to mingle with traffic is a good idea. We live in times when people don't stop for redlights,rarely pull to the right and stop for emergency vehicles and get hit by trains at crossings. I think any system that is not totally isolated from drivers will spend alot of time involved in accidents.

[professorscott]

Muskie,

First of all, there are light rail lines commingled with traffic in cities all over the country and all over the world. There are very few collisions for the same reason I don't pick a fight with a guy who's 6' 8" and 300 pounds. Motorists will really make an effort not to hit trains; the collision rarely goes well for the motorist.

Second of all, there's no question that for at least a part of the length of this line it will commingle with traffic. I was never a huge fan of that idea myself, but there we are. So it is what it is, and there's not much point in fighting it anymore.

Prof. Scott

[detmsp]

From the first linked article:

CNN iReporter Raymond Becich is a supporter. "Sure, Portland paid incentives to businesses to build along the streetcar [[line)," he said. "But how is this any different than any governmental jurisdiction giving tax breaks and other incentives for businesses to relocate to a city or state?"

Hmmmm. .... The reporters are now quoting themselves to provide the advocate's point of view on a story that they are supposedly reporting on! Was there a shortage of ordinary folks willing to be quoted as supporters? What a piece of journalistic rubbish!

An iReporter is not a CNN employed reporter. iReport is what CNN calls it when they show videos, photos, accounts, etc sent in by ordinary people.

[canuck]

Funny thing is Toronto's new mayor Rob Ford wants to do away with streetcars or at least with any funding of new equipment and lines. He does however want to extend the subway and get maximum funding for this during his mandate. Montreal's opposition party leader Richard Bergeron [[an urban planner) asked the Quebec government to hold the demolition and rebuild of the Turcot interchange near downtown at acost of 3 billion and instead spend [[according to him) the reasonable 1.5 billion to do the deed and spend the other half on a tramway line leading to the boroughs of Lachine and Lasalle next to the highway in question and other urban infrastructure. Not everybody is in love with the tramway option but Montreal and Quebec City are fighting to get them back. I understand mayor Ford's wish to concentrate on extending the subway but he is in for a big fight because Torontonians love their streetcars as far as I know.

[English]

Along with the Woodward line, I'd eventually love to have a Jefferson line that extends east to the Grosse Pointe border. I definitely believe you'd have ridership there, and it would allow the people in Lafayette Park, Rivertown, and the Villages to easily connect to the Woodward line. I also believe that my colleagues who live just over the border in GP would use it to commute, especially during high traffic or bad weather times.

[mwilbert]

Streetcars, or transit facilities in general, aren't going to save anything by themselves. As part a set of improvements, they could be important.

Woodward is looking pretty decent from the river up to New Center already, depending upon how you feel about the part betweeen Grand Circus and Campus Martius. I would expect a Woodward line to help fill in the gaps, and I expect the main effect will be south of Grand Boulevard. Once you get past New Center it is going to be a lot tougher. Maybe the commercial area around Model T Plaza could expand a bit, and I could imagine there being more commercial stuff on the east side of Woodward between 6 and the Fairgrounds, but that is pretty speculative.

[softailrider]

From the first linked article:

CNN iReporter Raymond Becich is a supporter. "Sure, Portland paid incentives to businesses to build along the streetcar [[line)," he said. "But how is this any different than any governmental jurisdiction giving tax breaks and other incentives for businesses to relocate to a city or state?"

Hmmmm. .... The reporters are now quoting themselves to provide the advocate's point of view on a story that they are supposedly reporting on! Was there a shortage of ordinary folks willing to be quoted as supporters? What a piece of journalistic rubbish!

And oh, by the way, I thought the major selling point offered by streetcar supporters has always been "build it and they will come" - meaning the tax dollars used to build the streetcar system will spur new development along the route and generate new tax revenues to the local government. However, in practice it's apparently "build it and they will come after you also award them property tax incentives".

From the second linked article, which was written more than 10 months ago:

The first, privately financed phase -- built and operated by the M1 consortium -- plans to start construction by the end of this year and have trains running by 2012.

Did I miss the groundbreaking?

Still gotta couple weeks, maybe Bing is polishing up a fancy shovel for the picture taking.

[Mikeg]

An iReporter is not a CNN employed reporter. iReport is what CNN calls it when they show videos, photos, accounts, etc sent in by ordinary people.

So what you're saying is that a "CNN iReporter" is basically an "ordinary person" masquerading as an unpaid "stringer". Apparently CNN has no journalistic qualms about identifying and quoting their stringers within the article to which they are contributing, just as long as it advances the desired narrative.

[Mikeg]

Can streetcars save Atlanta? Apparently their subway didn't.

From page 17 of Wastebook 2010:

Atlanta Builds Streetcar System on Same Route as Subway System

The City of Atlanta recently received $47.6 million in stimulus funding to construct a $72 million, 2.62-mile streetcar project in downtown Atlanta. The new street car will take passengers from Centennial Olympic Park to the Martin Luther King, Jr. Center. Luckily, if passengers do not want to ride on the streetcar, they can also take the existing Metropolitan Atlanta Rapid Transit Authority [[MARTA), which covers the same area as the streetcar. Similar projects haven‘t fared that well. A tourist trolley and MARTA bus-line covering the same route as the planned streetcars previously failed due to lack of use..........

Support for the streetcar system is mixed, with many Atlantans complaining that the addition of the streetcars will be costly, yet do nothing to ease Atlanta‘s growing traffic problem. In fact, of 40 mass transit projects rated by regional planners, the streetcar system ranked last in half the categories used to measure impact. One Atlantan, who works by a designated stop for the streetcar, stated the project was "foolishness" because "[i]t‘s not going to spur development, it‘s not going to spur anything…..when there‘s this many people out of work, and that‘s how they‘re going to use our dollars [by funding the streetcars]?"

[Russix]

Can streetcars save Atlanta? Apparently their subway didn't.

...

I did not realize that Atlanta had plummeted to Detroit status. Apparently their subway did.

[izzyindetroit]

"Motor City to Rail City; Can Streetcars Save Detroit?"

Only if we can do this with them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4XgLAEunsc

[ghettopalmetto]

Can streetcars save Atlanta? Apparently their subway didn't.

From page 17 of Wastebook 2010:

Atlanta Builds Streetcar System on Same Route as Subway System

The City of Atlanta recently received $47.6 million in stimulus funding to construct a $72 million, 2.62-mile streetcar project in downtown Atlanta. The new street car will take passengers from Centennial Olympic Park to the Martin Luther King, Jr. Center. Luckily, if passengers do not want to ride on the streetcar, they can also take the existing Metropolitan Atlanta Rapid Transit Authority [[MARTA), which covers the same area as the streetcar. Similar projects haven‘t fared that well. A tourist trolley and MARTA bus-line covering the same route as the planned streetcars previously failed due to lack of use..........

Support for the streetcar system is mixed, with many Atlantans complaining that the addition of the streetcars will be costly, yet do nothing to ease Atlanta‘s growing traffic problem. In fact, of 40 mass transit projects rated by regional planners, the streetcar system ranked last in half the categories used to measure impact. One Atlantan, who works by a designated stop for the streetcar, stated the project was "foolishness" because "[i]t‘s not going to spur development, it‘s not going to spur anything…..when there‘s this many people out of work, and that‘s how they‘re going to use our dollars [by funding the streetcars]?"

Georgia also spent billions of dollars in the 1980s for unprecendented freeway expansion that fostered automobile-dependent sprawl beyond the I-285 Perimeter. I'm also pretty sure Atlanta never coordinated its land-use planning with locations of transit stations.

What does Wastebook have to say about the Freeing the Freeways program that has resulted in 12-and-15-lane wide parking lots?

[Islandman]

So what you're saying is that a "CNN iReporter" is basically an "ordinary person" masquerading as an unpaid "stringer". Apparently CNN has no journalistic qualms about identifying and quoting their stringers within the article to which they are contributing, just as long as it advances the desired narrative.

A fairly common term for anyone that visits cnn.com fairly regularly. Not really that big of a qualm, as you are suggesting. It's their "man/woman on the street" digital area.

http://ireport.cnn.com/