Fleeing Manhattan

[BrushStart]

Today, there was an article in the NYT about a bar called Max Fish closing its doors on city's Lower East Side. Apparently, the bar was a relic of Manhattan's grittier days when life in NYC was "real." However, the quirky street Max Fish first opened up on has become commercial and has lost its diversity of originality, that certain je ne sais quoi that makes a neighborhood feel like home. Because Max Fish can no longer afford the high rents of Manhattan, it has been forced to close up shop. So, you ask, "Why does this matter to me..? I don't live in New York...." Well, I think it matters a lot. Scroll down and take a look at comment #24 to the article: http://community.nytimes.com/comment...ldest&offset=1

I read the NYT daily and such has become a common theme. For some reason, New Yorkers have an affinity for Detroit's "realness." Detroit is becoming a buzz word among potential NYC expatriates. If I would have saved the articles, I could show you a dozen more examples of similar comments. Recently, there has been quite a bit of chatter on City-Data [[another discussion forum) of New Yorkers asking about relocating to Detroit. They aren't deterred by our urban issues and find value in the fact that Detroit is still "real." Our urban landscape hasn't been engulfed by corporatism, in fact, Detroit is alarmingly devoid of it. Perhaps our edge in all of this is what we originally thought was our embarrassing weakness. Just food for thought.

[Pcm]

I mentioned this here on another thread, but a good friend of mine in Lincoln Nebraska has heard very similar things from young Lincoln-ites.

They say Detroit is the new Portland, the new Seattle.

[Detroitnerd]

Ha, I used to go to Max Fish. Oh, well. I guess I'll open a gritty bar here then ...

[Downriviera]

Same thing happened to CBGB's.

[EastsideAl]

I lived in Manhattan back in the late '80s when Max Fish opened. Funny to see the Times describe it that way. I always thought of it more as a harbinger of hipster gentrification than as a part of the gritty old city. All depends upon one's age and perspective, I guess.

I also see that the person who posted the "Move to Detroit" comment lists himself as living in Cole Valley, one of the seriously gentrified San Francisco neighborhoods from the dot com boom.

Not to say that Detroit couldn't use a little more gentrification in spots, or that it wouldn't be nice to have a little more around here of what those neighborhoods have [[hell, it would be nice to have around here what the Lower East Side had before the arrival of Max Fish), but Detroit is quite a different city in its history, culture, and most definitely in its physical layout from either New York or San Francisco.

I think those potential NYC emigrants would be rather surprised to find out just how "gritty" much of Detroit is. But I think they would be even less happy with the lack of urban density [[which was a characteristic of Detroit even before its emptying out), lack of vibrant streetlife, car-centric culture, and the distances you have to travel to do simple things. No newsstand, vegetable market, or cool bar or cafe right around the corner, or even walking distance, from most of this city.

[iheartthed]

I think those potential NYC emigrants would be rather surprised to find out just how "gritty" much of Detroit is. But I think they would be even less happy with the lack of urban density [[which was a characteristic of Detroit even before its emptying out), lack of vibrant streetlife, car-centric culture, and the distances you have to travel to do simple things. No newsstand, vegetable market, or cool bar or cafe right around the corner, or even walking distance, from most of this city.

Yeah... I agree with this. When I tell people from New York [[or other major cities on the coast) that Detroit doesn't have a train system, they tend to be confused at how a major city could even exist without one [[it's actually a pretty valid question). I don't think the people who lament the loss of this bar would be more happier in Detroit than say... Bushwick, Brooklyn or even the south Bronx, both areas which still in some ways resembles the descriptions of 1980s Lower East Side Manhattan.

[BrushStart]

I don't think the people who lament the loss of this bar would be more happier in Detroit than say... Bushwick, Brooklyn or even the south Bronx, both areas which still in some ways resembles the descriptions of 1980s Lower East Side Manhattan.

I don't think that's entirely true. There's a whisper among some that NY has become cliche. People realize every corner, every inch, nook and cranny of NYC is subject to potential gentrification- and that it's only a matter of time. See Williamsburg. On-the-other-hand, Detroit is the true urban frontier. It hasn't been explored, it's a blank canvass, it's not predictable, it's not cookie-cutter, commercial, corporate, or preordained, etc. Detroit is unique and totally raw. Most importantly, Detroit is cheap.

The lack of density in Detroit is caused by a lack of people. An influx of people will result in infill and increased density, especially if it's shoved along by new mass transit.

[dtowncitylover]

Very, very interesting....

Of course Michigan has always welcomed New Yorkers....Rochester, Utica, Troy...even the house I live in was built by a New Yorker!

[iheartthed]

I don't think that's entirely true. There's a whisper among some that NY has become cliche. People realize every corner, every inch, nook and cranny of NYC is subject to potential gentrification- and that it's only a matter of time. See Williamsburg. On-the-other-hand, Detroit is the true urban frontier. It hasn't been explored, it's a blank canvass, it's not predictable, it's not cookie-cutter, commercial, corporate, or preordained, etc. Detroit is unique and totally raw. Most importantly, Detroit is cheap.

The lack of density in Detroit is caused by a lack of people. An influx of people will result in infill and increased density, especially if it's shoved along by new mass transit.

The gentrification machine has been tremendously slowed. The media hasn't given it nearly the attention that they should, but it's happened. There are newly constructed buildings located in areas of upper Manhattan and Brooklyn that have been sitting empty for two or three years already. What hasn't already been gentrified now probably won't be for the foreseeable future. Most of Bushwick probably won't ever become what is now the Lower East Side and west Williamsburg. And the Bronx? Fuh-geddabahdit.

That said, people don't come to New York for the nostalgia of when it was a gritty city. People come to New York because this city sells the perception of opportunity. You may be a 25 year old college graduate sharing a 2 bedroom, 1 bathroom apartment with 5 other people but you do that because you're ambitious and New York is the place to be ambitious. Ambitious people aren't attracted to cities whose best days are spoken of in the past tense.

[Patrick]

you do that because you're ambitious and New York is the place to be ambitious. Ambitious people aren't attracted to cities whose best days are spoken of in the past tenseDifferent strokes for different folks. Maybe if you want to make millions in finance....sure NYC is the place to be but it isn't the pinnacle of creativity, nor the end all/bell for the creative class.

[JBMcB]

NYC is the place to be but it isn't the pinnacle of creativity, nor the end all/bell for the creative class.

It is if you want to get paid to be creative. That equals advertising, in all of it's forms [[commercials, print ads, corporate ID, T-shirts... ad infinitum)

I know several people who moved from Detroit to NY for this very reason. If you're extremely talented and very lucky, you can get a steady gig doing graphics for a company in Detroit. My friend is freelancing in NYC, doing only the projects he wants, and is making a good living, which is what he wants to do. He tried doing the same in Detroit, back during the internet bubble when times were relatively good, and it was nearly impossible.

[pffft]

It's cheaper to live in Detroit than it is in NYC, which is helpful to broke artists and young creative people, but there's less competition and more freedom here creatively. The idea that every creative person in America needs to live on top of one another in the same city, consume the same food, watch the same music, write about the same things -- I never got that.

[lilpup]

that's all about market image and media coverage, pffft

[Patrick]

The idea that every creative person in America needs to live on top of one another in the same city, consume the same food, watch the same music, write about the same things -- I never got that.

A lot of creative types on NYC and LA/SF have to work 2 and 3 jobs just to get by and they don't have time to tend to their creative side. The opposite happens in Detroit where it is dirt cheap and you will have lots of time left over. Not everyone is looking to make big $$ and get national exposure and fame.

[BrushStart]

I guess I disagree that Detroit doesn't feed into the mainstream art world. Detroit has a thriving art scene, which has been gaining recognition and visibility for many years now. I've heard of at least a few artists who earned their stripes in Detroit and recently became successes, either in the commercial market, or in the art/academic arena. Take a look at Sugar Hill, Russell Industrial Center, or even some of the fashion shows that have popped up. Those things are generating exposure for artists to get their stuff into the right hands.

[iheartthed]

you do that because you're ambitious and New York is the place to be ambitious. Ambitious people aren't attracted to cities whose best days are spoken of in the past tense

Different strokes for different folks. Maybe if you want to make millions in finance....sure NYC is the place to be but it isn't the pinnacle of creativity, nor the end all/bell for the creative class.

No, it isn't and I didn't mean to imply that.

My point was that Detroit isn't high on the list of most people who are looking for alternatives to New York.

[DetroitDad]

Undoubtedly, New York City's best days are probably behind her.

you do that because you're ambitious and New York is the place to be ambitious. Ambitious people aren't attracted to cities whose best days are spoken of in the past tense

Different strokes for different folks. Maybe if you want to make millions in finance....sure NYC is the place to be but it isn't the pinnacle of creativity, nor the end all/bell for the creative class.

[iheartthed]

Undoubtedly, New York City's best days are probably behind her.

Don't make half-assed snarks. It's either undoubted or just probable. Pick one.

[RickBeall]

Detroit is the frontier. Get in early, carve out your stake, and you gotta be strong.

[DetroitDad]

Don't make half-assed snarks. It's either undoubted or just probable. Pick one.

You either heart old New York, or the new and improved Detroit. You can't heart both.



Seriously though, I am not trying to speak ill of New York, it's a heck of a place. I just think it's just getting past it's prime. I know some of you guys always seem to think I am attacking a city or place when I talk like this, but you guys are misjudging me. It all has more to do with a belief that economies are cyclic.

[DetroitDad]

Detroit is the frontier. Get in early, carve out your stake, and you gotta be strong.

I like that analogy.

Of course, if you miss it, you may have several other chances in many other American and world cities over the next few decades.

[DetroitDad]

Ambitious people aren't attracted to cities whose best days are spoken of in the past tense.

That is a B.S. generalization. Both New York and Detroit's best days are not only behind them, but are also ahead of them. Once again, economies and the conditions of places are not forever. Furthermore, New York may be a place to be if you have resources [[riches) and are ambitious. However, Detroit is the place to be if you are relatively poor, young, don't wan't to acquire new debt, and are still ambitious.

[wolverine]

Another neighborhood in a big city becoming livable. The horror!!!!

Nothing new here. The same story cried over and over by hipsters. This neighborhood is too pricey...I'm going to X neigborhood....

Detroit not relevant here, although if it was......news to me...

That is a B.S. generalization. Both New York and Detroit's best days are not only behind them, but are also ahead of them. Once again, economies and the conditions of places are not forever. Furthermore, New York may be a place to be if you have resources [[riches) and are ambitious.

Best days behind them? New York has quite the future ahead of them in this coming decade. You certainly can't say "New York will be a superpower forever." All cities have their cycles. but you can't say their best days are behind them. America's Alpha cities have promising futures in the coming years.

However, Detroit is the place to be if you are relatively poor, young, don't wan't to acquire new debt, and are still ambitious.

That's a serious problem, a welfare state. Reading assignment for you: global cities and their importance.

[DetroitDad]

Another neighborhood in a big city becoming livable. The horror!!!!

Nothing new here. The same story cried over and over by hipsters. This neighborhood is too pricey...I'm going to X neigborhood....

Detroit not relevant here, although if it was......news to me...



Best days behind them? New York has quite the future ahead of them in this coming decade. You certainly can't say "New York will be a superpower forever." All cities have their cycles. but you can't say their best days are behind them. America's Alpha cities have promising futures in the coming years.



That's a serious problem, a welfare state. Reading assignment for you: global cities and their importance.

There is such a thing as working poor.... just sayin'...

Again, New York is a great city. If our family was not here, and my wife and I were not interested in the challenges Detroit presents, I might have chosen a path that lead to New York or another great city. Still, I think New York is going to be facing some real issues. I do think there is something behind the idea that it has grown too big to continue as it has for very much longer.

[claireianthelibrarian]

So, as an... I'll say it, as a stupid hipster* who semi-recently moved here, allow me to note that I've been meeting other creative/bookish young people who also did so in increasing numbers. But then again, those numbers are somewhere around a total of ten; the anecdotes just stand out sharply against a sea of having to constantly explain "Yes, I came here by choice. Yes. I like it. Really. Thanks for your mock apology." Buuuut then again, there has definitely been noticeable interest among my nationally scattered friends about my new home.

I used Portland as a point of contrast when I tried to explain to people why I would be moving here, and I'd hate to see us become that city. Like all proper hipsters, I revile my own kind above all else. [[Quietly hoping jokey tone is evident here.) I love Portland's transit and the food and the ubiquitous bookstores, but after a week there I wanted so badly to be back in a city with some real character, a city where diversity consists of something besides differences between who is the veganest vegan or the most correct feminist. That said, uh, gee.... Here on the East Side, I sure would love it if somebody would move into any one of the hundreds of vacant houses I pass every day and breathe life into it. It'd be nice to have extra hands helping us lift, to put it in the loosest terms. And oh my god, after repeated attempts with the Mack Bus, damn do I pine for transit that at least tries to show up.

New York is a magnet for young creatives, but there is also something to be said for being a slightly bigger fish in a slightly smaller pond. I sometimes wonder how my life would have been different if I'd stayed in Chicago rather than spending a few years in redlined parts of St. Louis and then moving here, but damned if you don't get interesting opportunities in places that are thirsty for talent.

* Shut up, these glasses are totally prescription.