Demicans, Republicrats, Teabaggers and LOBBYISTS...

[rb336]

He's gotten a lot done for being such a terrible pol. And what sort of arm-twisting do you suggest with the likes of Mitch McConnell?

This is why I am PO'd with the dems. Mitch came right out and said they would not allow the removal of incentives for countries to move work overseas and replace it with incentives for companies to expand in the US. How many dems came out and slammed him upside the head with that? How many anti-repub commercials came out with that video clip? NONE.

[1KielsonDrive]

He's gotten a lot done for being such a terrible pol. And what sort of arm-twisting do you suggest with the likes of Mitch McConnell?

Ummmm, let's see.......bankruptcies, foreclosures, extended unemployment, Guantanamo, troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, etc, etc. This past election. nObama's got a lot done? If nObama's the head of the demican party, isn't he to blame for the election? You know if you're going to criticize the republicrats when they're in power, you need to do the same with demicans. They're cut from the same cloth - a very rich fabric. Their money comes from the same sources - maybe just varying amounts according to the political winds. Yes, SALT is important. Yes, DADT is important. But, what good will any of it do for the economically struggling middle class? And if you're a cynic [[who me?), what's good does it do for your electibility? You can't do a gosh durn thing for working people? Oh yes, nObama's Health Care is an abomination. I've yet to meet anyone who's had direct positive affect from the new nObama Health Care plan. It sure hasn't done me a bit of good. All the good stuff you hear about it is from demican party propaganda. No matter, it'll soon be gone. Wasted opportunity. It's a shame.

[maxx]

Oh, look, the FDA is in business again. What did we have under W? Food recalls. Fewer inspectors. Have to be thrifty when you're waging war.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/22/business/22food.html
"...The bill, which President Obama has indicated he will sign, is meant to change the mission of the F.D.A., focusing it on preventing food-borne illnesses rather than reacting after an outbreak occurs. The overhaul comes after several major outbreaks and food recalls in recent years involving salmonella in eggs and peanuts, and E. coli in spinach and other leafy greens..."

[oladub]

Oh, look, the FDA is in business again. What did we have under W? Food recalls. Fewer inspectors. Have to be thrifty when you're waging war.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/22/business/22food.html
"...The bill, which President Obama has indicated he will sign, is meant to change the mission of the F.D.A., focusing it on preventing food-borne illnesses rather than reacting after an outbreak occurs. The overhaul comes after several major outbreaks and food recalls in recent years involving salmonella in eggs and peanuts, and E. coli in spinach and other leafy greens..."

maxx, Do you feel more protected now? If you like what the FDA has done to the cost and availability of medicine, you will no doubt love what the FDA can do to the price and availability of food. The President has has a stunningly successful month with the introduction of naked body scanners, punitive groping, allowing the FCC to have the option of controlling the internet, giving the FDA the option of controlling food production, and we will probably yet learn that the partridge and pear tree have Monsanto patents. There were some last minute amendments softening the blow to small farmers in S. 510 but it is still a product of Monsanto and Homeland Security and will burden smaller farmers more than mega-farms. This, of course, was another thousand plus page 'protection' measure that materialized when industrial size egg producers had some bad eggs. Corporate ag goofs but small farmers are made to pay.

The bill isn't all bad. $1.4B will be spent to inspect foreign food. $1.4B seems a bit steep. I wonder though if the $1.4B will be added to the cost of the imported food or if taxpayers or US farmers will have to pay for this service.

[1KielsonDrive]

Oh, look, the FDA is in business again. What did we have under W? Food recalls. Fewer inspectors. Have to be thrifty when you're waging war.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/22/business/22food.html
"...The bill, which President Obama has indicated he will sign, is meant to change the mission of the F.D.A., focusing it on preventing food-borne illnesses rather than reacting after an outbreak occurs. The overhaul comes after several major outbreaks and food recalls in recent years involving salmonella in eggs and peanuts, and E. coli in spinach and other leafy greens..."

Thanks Maxx. There's a long standing rule here at DY called Rule #1. It goes something like this: 'Don't believe it until you see it and it's been here a few years'. That's a life lesson. I understand you're wanting to believe in this guy, but nObama did say he'd produce 'Change You Can Believe In'. The FDA would have to be turned upside down to root out all the corruption due to political appointees. No matter what nObama's doing about the FDA, he's not only carrying forward Bush administration policies, he's fighting to keep them intact and in place. We can go on forever with examples, but as far as I'm concerned, nObama is Bush Lite. He didn't start all this shit, but he's carrying it forward. He may be viewed as better than Bush because he's supposedly brighter, but he can't hold up Bush's YKW for getting his agenda enacted, That is, unless he's a liar - 'Change You Can Believe In'??????

[ghettopalmetto]

maxx, Do you feel more protected now? If you like what the FDA has done to the cost and availability of medicine, you will no doubt love what the FDA can do to the price and availability of food.

The biggest bounty of cheap food doesn't mean a damned thing if people die from eating it.

[oladub]

The biggest bounty of cheap food doesn't mean a damned thing if people die from eating it.

So you want to put Monsanto in charge of food production with the likes of S. 510? Then enjoy your bht milk, growth hormone beef, GMO corn, chlorinated water, and frankenfish Walmart tomatoes because the FDA has approved them all. In fact, you don't have much choice because when S. 510, NAIS, smart growth land use policies, and imported food successfully run ever more family farmers out of business, those will be, more and more, your only choices...if available. You will eat what the governcorps puts on your your plate and like it... and pay the price like you do for medicine. It's worth it because you will be protected. Big Brother cares about you.

Ten years from now you'll be hollering for some Obamacare type program to guarantee your right to access FDA approved affordable food. We always could use some more government to protect us.

[ghettopalmetto]

So you want to put Monsanto in charge of food production with the likes of S. 510? Then enjoy your bht milk, growth hormone beef, GMO corn, chlorinated water, and frankenfish Walmart tomatoes because the FDA has approved them all. In fact, you don't have much choice because when S. 510, NAIS, smart growth land use policies, and imported food successfully run ever more family farmers out of business, those will be, more and more, your only choices...if available. You will eat what the governcorps puts on your your plate and like it... and pay the price like you do for medicine. It's worth it because you will be protected. Big Brother cares about you.

Ten years from now you'll be hollering for some Obamacare type program to guarantee your right to access FDA approved affordable food. We always could use some more government to protect us.

S.510 exempts small farmers. See above.

How would smart-growth land-use policies wipe family farmers out of business? As if the Sprawl Machine hasn't already raped thousands of acres of family farmland and put it into the hands of Pulte Homes? This is one of the more hilarious claims you've ever made, Oladub.

FDA isn't responsible for inspecting agricultural products. Again, see above. Items like beef are under the purview of the Department of Agriculture.

I hope you're just being paranoid again. Otherwise, you might want to explain how increased inspection of food processing facilities is going to result in food rationing and the destruction of the family farm. I'm not sure how often you eat, but chances are, your food *already* comes from Monsanto and their cadre of factory farms.

[oladub]

S.510 exempts small farmers. See above.

How would smart-growth land-use policies wipe family farmers out of business? As if the Sprawl Machine hasn't already raped thousands of acres of family farmland and put it into the hands of Pulte Homes? This is one of the more hilarious claims you've ever made, Oladub.

FDA isn't responsible for inspecting agricultural products. Again, see above. Items like beef are under the purview of the Department of Agriculture.

.

S.510 exempts small farmers from some paperwork if they sell directly to the customer and keep their own record of sales. However, when they sell into the mainstream corporate arena, there is a lot more regulation including NAIS regulations. Mega farms can cope with this better because it doesn't cost as much money, time, or expertise per cow or bushel as it does on smaller traditional farms. In other words, the net effect is to bog small farmers down more than corporate farms. If I wasn't such a pollyanna, I would say that is part of the intent. The Amish are already having quite a bit of conflict with the State over NAIS regulations where I live and S.510 strengthens the enforcement at the federal level.

I could write a book about smart growth in rural areas. In the city, it is hardly noticed as anything more than zoning on steroids. In rural areas, it significantly causes mandatory changes in lifestyle, turns farming decisions over from the farm owner to unelected bureaucrats who mandate bankrupting cost sharing practices and limit land use. In my county, if you have a 'rare and endangered species' found on your property from a list of something like 86 species and whatever the land and Water Conservation District, then you can't plant within 800' of that toad, mushroom, or stream edge. The number of listed things, the distances, and any other requirements are arbitrary. In fact, there was a provision in our township's comprehensive smart growth land control plan that said the County LWCD plan was considered a part of our township plan. This was a Trojan Horse. That bureaucracy could change it's plan as it chose and our township would have no say about what went into it's new plan. Our County plan may as well have been an evacuation plan since even adding a porch on to a house in a rural area would be illegal. All the better for corporations to buy less inhabited land and for government to seize land for corridors and 'open spaces'.

Our plan even had a goal of improving our residents' morals. That seemed so bizarre that I did a google search and found the same provision in comprehensive smart growth land control plans all over the English speaking world. I asked our planner what he had put that provision into our land control plan for. He was sort of vague but said it was "just a tool" he had added and that we had the option of removing it before adoption. Creepy. I could go on but these plans saddle farms with extra costs and restriction that are more difficult for small farms to comply with than mega-farms which have better legal departments and financial resources. A lot of land is consequently going from farm use into recreational use where I live but maybe you can import food to make up some of the difference.

In my County, the population declined from 1900-2000. Our school enrollments continue to decline. Some schools are being closed. The two villages closest to where i live no longer have any grocery stores except for Kwik-Stops, feed mills, or lumber yards because of rural depopulation and big boxes further away. So I know of what I speak where I live. Go out to North Dakota if you think there is so much sprawl. Some cities in the prairie are giving away building lots just hoping to stem population losses. Since most population growth in the US is because of immigration and immigrant children, I could suggest how else to stop sprawl. Otherwise expect another 50M people to house and provide roads for by 2050.

S. 510 also allows the FDA to do pretty much as it wishes in terms of restricting food production. It does not mandate the FDA to do so but given the character of government agencies' mission creep, it isn't a good thing to leave in S.510.

I hope you're just being paranoid again. Otherwise, you might want to explain how increased inspection of food processing facilities is going to result in food rationing and the destruction of the family farm. I'm not sure how often you eat, but chances are, your food *already* comes from Monsanto and their cadre of factory farms

I prefer the word 'cautious'. I previously mentioned $1.4B to inspect foreign food. I support inspecting foreign food but wondered if the high cost would be added to the imported food or if taxpayers or us farmers would have to share the cost. I have cited NAIS, smart growth, and other regulatory costs and hurdles as driving farmers out of business. This is already happening. To the extent it gets worse, I am just warning, food will be less available. With the dollar in decline and more competition for foreign food, that option will become more expensive. In addition, the pressures on small farmers will continue to drive them off the land and the percentage of Bush/Obama/Monsanto frankenfood we all eat will increase. In my case, I live on a farm, my wife has a huge garden and cans, and our own food supply was most recently augmented with two does our son shot and butchered. I grew up in Detroit and don't hunt. He grew up here. Country boy can survive. I did help with the butchering though. Good luck on the government protecting you.

[1KielsonDrive]

What's to be expected of government agencies corrupted by politicians and their corporate benefactors? Regardless of how it's happened and who caused it, it's still corruption. It amounts to a self-fullfilling prophecy. "XYZ Agency is totally ineffective and costly, so we're going to slash it's budget and appoint a former CEO as it's head". That is Washington DC political think and action.

[maxx]

oladub: maxx, Do you feel more protected now?

maxx: As a matter of fact I do . Much better protected than during the shrub's admin. when businesses were supposed to police themselves. Such dung the Republicans expected people to swallow! And I guess some did.

The President has has a stunningly successful month with the introduction of naked body scanners, punitive groping,

And how would you ensure the flying public that their gov. is protecting them from crazy people who put bombs in their underwear?

allowing the FCC to have the option of controlling the internet,

I don't like the freebies given to Comcast. But you expect the Dems to ruin their chances of ever winning an election by making enemies of the big corporations while the Republicans just sit on their hands and get all the corporate money. Our financing of elections has to change before the Republicans turn everything over to the corporations and our gov. is a sham democracy.

giving the FDA the option of controlling food production,

citation, please

and we will probably yet learn that the partridge and pear tree have Monsanto patents.

Read the preceding paragraph. The system has to be changed.

[oladub]

oladub: maxx, Do you feel more protected now?
maxx: As a matter of fact I do . Much better protected than during the shrub's admin. when businesses were supposed to police themselves. Such dung the Republicans expected people to swallow! And I guess some did.

Monsanto should give you a prize.

And how would you ensure the flying public that their gov. is protecting them from crazy people who put bombs in their underwear?

In the long run by not aggrevating people on the other side of the world and better minding our own business. In the present by looking more closely at Israeli methods of interviewing passengers which do not involve groping genitals for refusing to go though machines Chertoff is selling. Also by insisting on policies consistent with the Fourth Amendment.

I don't like the freebies given to Comcast. But you expect the Dems to ruin their chances of ever winning an election by making enemies of the big corporations while the Republicans just sit on their hands and get all the corporate money. Our financing of elections has to change before the Republicans turn everything over to the corporations and our gov. is a sham democracy.

No, I actually don't expect anything from Democrats although even I was surprised that Obama turned into the chief advocate of Bush's tax cuts for the rich. It's been Democrats responsible for turning things over to corporations for the last two years though.

giving the FDA the option of controlling food production,
citation, please

The Tester Amendment slightly improved S. 510 by allowing somesmall farmers escape the worst of the new controls. Under the Tester Amendment, farmers "who make less than $500,000 a year in revenue and sell directly to consumers, restaurants or grocery stores within their states or within 275 miles of their farms to avoid expensive food safety plans required of larger operations." If, on the other hand, they brought their milk to most dairy plants, sold their livestock to a large corporation, or their veggies to a Safeway or Walmart supplier, they would according to the Associated Press, get themselves involved with expensive regulations that they presently do not have to contend with. So this bill is a vicious hit on small farmers.

"S510 is important public health legislation that would grant the FDA greater regulatory authority over the nation's food supply." -Dr. Georges Benjamin, director, American Public Health Association

"FDA's track record is one of favoring large, industrial-scale agriculture, and we're concerned that the agency will use its expanded powers under S510 in the same way." -Judith McGeary, executive director, Farm and Ranch Freedom Alliance

To specifically fill your research request:
" What Senate bill S. 510 does is it creates statutory authority for the FDA to come up with regulations governing all aspects of food production and processing. So whether or not it will affect a home garden or a farmer’s market, we probably won’t see anything immediately affecting those, but once they come up with the regulations and start enforcing we could see a disruption in anything, anything from a farmer’s market to a child’s lemonade stand.
Because nothing is explicitly exempted, so they are all implicitly included. So the regulations could very easily include regulations such that they impose over burdensome re.strictions on farmers going to market."
http://www.govtrackinsider.com/articles/2010-10-15/s510

"Control the oil and you can control entire continents.
Control food and you control people." - Henry Kissinger

[Zacha341]

Soylent Green anybody? The federal Food, Energy, Safety, Personal Responsibility, Global Sustainability, Economics and Resource Management bureau strongly suggests it... for your own good, you know........

The Government should be as limited as possible and held only to the powers granted to it by the Constitution. These scoundrels would feed you human flesh if the politicians felt that the food source was a worthy sacrifice for the "greater good" in thierminds, and they would tell you it was chicken. When people point at one party while having a false notion thier party of choice can do no wrong ... it just floors me.

Representative Government is dead.
Well, representative of the people, anyway.

[maxx]

gibran: I would feel more comfortable if a viable and honest third party evolved.

You noticed that the tea party people had no interest in starting a new party. They're just taking over the Republican party.
[quote[ oladub: In the long run by not aggrevating people on the other side of the world and better minding our own business.[/quote]
What did we do and who did we aggrevate to cause 911?

In the present by looking more closely at Israeli methods of interviewing passengers which do not involve groping genitals for refusing to go though machines Chertoff is selling.

Look at the number of people flying in the U.S. v. the Israeli flying public. How long does each interview take? And do they engage in "racial profiling"? From what I've heard, there's a certain element of magical thinking going on in Israel concerning their airport security. They just "know" who the bad guys are when they see them. Once they get hustled off to an Israeli jail, I wonder what legal recourse they get.

RE: The Tester Amendment. So Obama should have not signed this huge bill because of one amendment? And if it keeps some "farmer" in Detroit growing foodstuffs on some brownfield from putting his crops on the market, I'm all for it. I am not happy with the appointment of anybody from Monsanto to any part of the gov. But it's the people in Congress who are writing the laws that person then enforces.

[oladub]

maxx
[quote[ oladub: In the long run by not aggrevating people on the other side of the world and better minding our own business.

What did we do and who did we aggrevate to cause 911?

Decades of imperialist exploitation of local natural resources. US troops in Saudi Arabia. Bin Laden would also include our special relationship with Israel. We installed the Shah and armed Bin Laden too although that is out of the range of your question.

Look at the number of people flying in the U.S. v. the Israeli flying public. How long does each interview take? And do they engage in "racial profiling"? From what I've heard, there's a certain element of magical thinking going on in Israel concerning their airport security. They just "know" who the bad guys are when they see them. Once they get hustled off to an Israeli jail, I wonder what legal recourse they get.

It's Americans who are being fined and arrested for not cooperating with our "authorities" now". I would be more concerned with our emerging police state overriding the 4th Amendment. The Israelis do religious profiling although I haven't heard of them doing racial profiling. If most instances of planes flying into US buildings and trains, busses, etc,. blowing up in Europe and Israel have to do with one religion, then that probably makes sense. That's reality rather than magic. The number of people fit into a US airliner is no more than in Israeli planes.

RE: The Tester Amendment. So Obama should have not signed this huge bill because of one amendment? And if it keeps some "farmer" in Detroit growing foodstuffs on some brownfield from putting his crops on the market, I'm all for it. I am not happy with the appointment of anybody from Monsanto to any part of the gov. But it's the people in Congress who are writing the laws that person then enforces.

You managed to get that completely backwards. The Tester Amendment was an improvement to an otherwise Monsanto driven agricorp food bill. It at least allowed farmers to sell directly to customers, in state, and within a certain radius without some of the more paperwork and expensive regulations. The Tester Amendment will not prevent someone from putting brownfield food on the market. You will be safer and more protected if somehow you can make sure that all the food you buy has Bgh, growth implants, chlorine, preservatives, and other Monsanto innovations to protect you. After all, the FDA assures us that all these things are safe.

[maxx]

oladub: Decades of imperialist exploitation of local natural resources.

Now you're sounding like some commie. lol

oladub: You managed to get that completely backwards. The Tester Amendment was an improvement to an otherwise Monsanto driven agricorp food bill.

I was referring to this.
"If, on the other hand, they brought their milk to most dairy plants, sold their livestock to a large corporation, or their veggies to a Safeway or Walmart supplier, they would according to the Associated Press, get themselves involved with expensive regulations that they presently do not have to contend with."
Anyone who buys foodstuffs grown in Detroit should test the farmers' fields first.

RE: El Al's security procedures
http://www.examiner.com/populist-in-...they-work-here
"...El Al security procedures require that all passengers be interviewed individually prior to boarding,...

Ben Gurion Airport in Tel Aviv only has about 11.5 million passengers per year --putting it just behind Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International with 13.6 million. Over 800 million people flew in the United States in 2008, 43 million of them out of Hartsfield in Atlanta. Adopting such Israeli security screening at Hartsfield, O'Hare in Chicago [[31 million passengers) or Dallas [[26 million) would shut the system down..."

[This article includes one person's multiple encounters with Israeli airport security which are interesting.]

[maxx]

1Kielson Dr: He may be viewed as better than Bush because he's supposedly brighter, but he can't hold up Bush's YKW for getting his agenda enacted,

Now, which party had control of both houses under W for most of his time in office?

[oladub]

maxx: Now you're sounding like some commie. lol

'Paleo-libertarian constitutionalist' would be in the ballpark.

I was referring to this.
"If, on the other hand, they brought their milk to most dairy plants, sold their livestock to a large corporation, or their veggies to a Safeway or Walmart supplier, they would according to the Associated Press, get themselves involved with expensive regulations that they presently do not have to contend with."
Anyone who buys foodstuffs grown in Detroit should test the farmers' fields first.

I was referring to ag producers not covered by the Tester Amendment. If covered by the Tester Amendment, there will still be more paperwork, costs and fines. Even worse, if not covered by the Tester Amendment, farmers will have to comply with more up front costs they can't afford but at least be able to sell in the national market. I was complaining more about being thrown out of the market and I resent the monopoly this bill provides agricorp businesses.

RE: El Al's security procedures
http://www.examiner.com/populist-in-...they-work-here
"...El Al security procedures require that all passengers be interviewed individually prior to boarding,...

Ben Gurion Airport in Tel Aviv only has about 11.5 million passengers per year --putting it just behind Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International with 13.6 million. Over 800 million people flew in the United States in 2008, 43 million of them out of Hartsfield in Atlanta. Adopting such Israeli security screening at Hartsfield, O'Hare in Chicago [[31 million passengers) or Dallas [[26 million) would shut the system down..."

[This article includes one person's multiple encounters with Israeli airport security which are interesting.]

Still, they use the same airplanes holding the same number of passengers. If more people run through our system, the number of screeners would be proportional. After reading the article though, I agree that more time would have to be spent per passenger and that would probably require more security personnel. There is still the Fourth Amendment to consider; no unreasonable searches are permissible in this country and then only with a warrant presumably issued by a judge specific to the person to be searched. To the extent that Americans can do so, I expect that a fraction more Americans will be taking road trips or at least until intrusive roadblocks are set up with requests of "papers please".

[maxx]

The operative word is "unreasonable". When terrorists put bombs in their underwear and others transport drugs in their stomachs, what is unreasonable?

[1KielsonDrive]

Now, which party had control of both houses under W for most of his time in office?

Uuuuuummm, rhetorical question? Tell me so I undertsand the point you're getting at.