The Decline & Fall Of The American Empire

[Patrick]

I disagree with the idea that Roman infrastructure collapsed. What weakened Rome more than anything was the internal strife and civil wars that seemed to happen every 4 years. That along with the inward migration of the Germanic peoples bing pressed south of the Danube and into Roman territory not because they wanted to...because the Huns were scaring them south.

From a military standpoint, Rome had far more campaigns going on at one time than we could ever dream of. Not only did Rome face a constant war on the Danube...they faced it on the Eastern frontier with Parthia and in numerous other areas. As a matter of fact, we will probably see the USA split into several sections before too long if things keep going the way they have been going. Just look at how Diocleation split the Roman Empire in two...

[canuck]

gdogslim

Also, Greed did not make this nation the greatest nation in history. The Constitution and Declaration layed the foundation for it.
Now it is being attacked by libs on every front to tear it apart and rearange it and ignore it.

The Constitution and Declaration look pretty good on paper, but George Washington and Thomas Jefferson and other eminent founders of the United States were owners of large numbers of slaves and therefore guilty of the sin of greed. Part of that spirit of greed and hypocrisy is embedded in these documents. Look at the human strength and frailties on an individual basis and quit taking the love it or leave it attitude that nothing is superior to these documents. Read up on Benjamin Franklin, that son of a gun was really interesting, questioned everything, and was an early abolitionist, something to recommend him to me...

[Patrick]

The Constitution and Declaration look pretty good on paper, but George Washington and Thomas Jefferson and other eminent founders of the United States were owners of large numbers of slaves and therefore guilty of the sin of greed.

Very true and I recall the tour guide at Monticello had the toughest time trying to justify Jefferson's history of slave ownership. The man tried to make it seem like Jefferson didn't know any better.

[canuck]

Here is the Petition for the Abolition of Slavery that Benjamin Franklin penned in 1790 and directed to Congress. He had owned slaves himself but eventually resented this feature of colonial life.
The reason I mention this is that to me, there is no saving grace in the human condition if we cant examine a problem with its source and its consequence, and instead we choose to follow a blindfolded adherence to the law. That is what fundamentalists do, they invoke the precepts of an old text in order to control other people's opinions and liberties.

http://www.archives.gov/legislative/features/franklin/

Thomas Jefferson also had the same doubts and resentments about slavery as time went on, but he was not gung-ho enough about human rights to do the right thing.

[oladub]

Let's see. Gandhi was a horrible husband. The FBI supposedly caught MLK whoring in an Oslo hotel. Jimmy Carter is the only President since Truman of whom I haven't heard stories concerning women. Lincoln said very demeaning things about Blacks. Jesus lost his temper a couple of time with moneychangers and a rock that wouldn't produce water. That is one way to teach history; to be distracted by personal foibles and failures. The other way is to measure a person by what they do in their public life and that is why Gandhi, MLK, Lincoln, Jefferson and the like earned their place in history and even why the Queen isn't pictured on our dollar bill. Thank you, Mr. Jefferson.

[Gannon]

It seems the fall of Rome, as with many things, is more rorschach test than anything else. We will see what we want to see in it, given the tainted data and history we're presented...since those historians, despite efforts to the contrary, all suffer from the same merely human tendency.

We can only see that which we allow ourselves to see, and without great effort...all we'll ever understand is framed by our usually quite limited and linear perspective.


As with MOST learning, it is best fully revisited as we grow older and gain experience, although simply growing older occasionally reduces further some folk's resiliency to novelty. Usually, though, life experiences allow a grander appreciation of the lessons of history. Same reason a movie already seen, or book already read, usually yields greater understanding when revisited or reviewed later in life.


I, too, have read accounts of how life in Rome had grown to be leisurely for the upper class in diametric opposition with how UNleisurely it became for the lower class...but all were appeased by the government providing bread and circuses...of which one emporer, when reportedly faced with the choice of ONE to send across the Mediterranean Sea, sand for the games or wheat for food, chose the sand. Because the distraction from the true concerns of a valuable, active, productive life was deemed more important than the concerns of an empty belly.

I know I insert some Protestant work ethic into that analysis, equating productive with active and valuable...but even though as a mystic I am prone to what appears to be inactivity, I am growing to recognize that life is better when engaged. I can hardly stomach my part in the current common circus show, which is television...and now even the internet!



As for those of history being conundrums or contradictions...I feel quite strongly that this merely demonstrates all of our basic natures: to view OTHERS harshly as static events, when in reality we are ALL dynamic on-going learning and growing 'curves' in process. IF the meme of the day TODAY were slavery, and during the course of daily living through and with it some of us had a dawning that it wasn't quite right...how quickly could we make the change for the better? What personal, familial, and societal momentum and/or inertia would hinder our full motion in the proper direction?!


Plus, as far as personal foibles and distractions...I cannot imagine that ANY mere human being is capable of perfection. I don't suffer the delusion that I am any better than anyone else, nor worse, in this regard. I also don't hold it against anyone.

The stuff MLK has been documented to have partaken in is beyond the pale. BUT that history is tainted by what J. Edgar Hoover ordered his agents to find and allowed them to keep in the record. The FBI was actively trying to destroy the man, and I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't incite or exacerbate MLK's sexual exercises by providing some incentives for some women to push him further into rough and/or violent sexual encounters.

Same with Gandhi...although I know less about his marital relations. It seems that no matter what, the driving force between married folks is patterned behavior that we learn from our own parents. Plus the generally accepted 'norm' of the day and society.

Heck, Einstein was famously horrible to the women in his life, too!


Yeshua/Jesus mostly came down hard on those who should have known better. It is commonly said that he only got upset about the moneychangers, but he used the term hypocrite directly against the religious leaders of his time. [[indeed, I cannot remember any instance that term was used against any non-leader or common person) Those who KNEW the esoteric depths of mysticism and spirituality, but instead of empowering their followers towards direct engagement with Deity chose instead to lord their power over them all...enforced with extreme fear of the unknown. Jesus said they were wolves in sheep's clothing, and his words are a direct indictment against nearly ALL religious leaders to this very day.

Not only a rock, he oddly got angry also with an olive tree that wouldn't bear fruit...and had some harsh things to say about those who may not deserve his attention...but those allusions remain mysterious and enigmatic to any who dare truly investigate this half-man/half-God. I know I tickle a few nerves describing him as merely such...and tickle even MORE just considering that he was a real figure in history. As I said, mysterious and enigmatic...if my life hadn't been so altered the instant I dared consider him directly, I'd probably dismiss him, too.


So...back to empires and gravity...I believe we are all capable of doing extremely positive and/or negative things. With every choice, every decision to act or not. Collectively, we need to guard against the odd trend toward those actions described as the seven deadly sins, or for some the logical compliment of Franklin's Thirteen Virtues.

Indeed, a treatise could be written of how wrath, greed, sloth, pride, lust, envy, and gluttony all play a part in the creation AND eventual destruction of empires. Conversely, if one allows themselves to focus upon these items which the deep-thinker Franklin considered daily [[if one can fully trust ANY autobiography):

1. Temperance Eat not to dullness; drink not to elevation.
2. Silence Speak not but what may benefit others or yourself; avoid trifling conversation.
3. Order Let all your things have their places; let each part of your business have its time.
4. Resolution Resolve to perform what you ought; perform without fail what you resolve.
5. Frugality Make no expense but to do good to others or yourself; i.e., waste nothing.
6. Industry Lose no time; be always employed in something useful; cut off all unnecessary actions.
7. Sincerity Use no hurtful deceit; think innocently and justly, and, if you speak, speak accordingly.
8. Justice Wrong none by doing injuries, or omitting the benefits that are your duty.
9. Moderation Avoid extremes; forbear resenting injuries so much as you think they deserve.
10. Cleanliness Tolerate no uncleanliness in body, clothes, or habitation.
11. Tranquility Be not disturbed at trifles, or at accidents common or unavoidable.
12. Chastity Rarely use venery but for health or offspring, never to dullness, weakness, or the injury of your own or another's peace or reputation.
13. Humility Imitate Jesus and Socrates.

Then they may be able to improve themselves over time, and thusly improve society overall by their positive energy output. Notice the 'they'...heh...as IF I am able to focus upon anything continually, especially a list of positives like this!

Given enough people trending this way, I cannot see how any group...or even empire...could fail, let alone fall. But we ARE merely human, each of us largely unable to reverse the icky trend towards the mundane consumption by bad habits, which remain after the good ones have long died from starvation and inattention and assumption.

We as an empire are already done, but each individual can choose to take what they need from what remains, or give what little they have towards the overall good of the whole. One leads to isolation and violence, the other communal unity [[community) and hopefully peace.

Our current meme is grab what you can, while you can. I think it needs to be revisited [[bundled and thrown out), or this empiric fall will be all the more harsh upon us all.

Cheers...that is my choice...to remain cheerful even in the face of such seeming decay, destruction, and devastation. I lean on my mystic faith. I know that cheeriness pisses some off. It might be a rorschach.

[maxx]

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/the...9?pagenumber=1
"...in 'Wealth, War and Wisdom' by hedge fund manager Barton Biggs, Morgan Stanley's former chief global strategist who warns us of the 'possibility of a breakdown of the civilized infrastructure,' advising us to buy a farm in the mountains. 'Your safe haven must be self-sufficient and capable of growing some kind of food ... well-stocked with seed, fertilizer, canned food, wine, medicine, clothes, etc. Think Swiss Family Robinson.' And when they come looting, fire 'a few rounds over the approaching brigands' heads.'


[Because the little people won't be armed. har har]

[Ravine]

The comparisons to the Roman empire are justified, but nothing new; every great "empire" shares common aspects with the ones which preceded it, including certain events which occur during the roll down the other side of the mountain.

More bothersome, to me, are the similarities to the Germany of about 100 years ago, and every time I hear someone utter an ugly remark about "the Ay-rabs," I am chilled a bit beyond my usual response to racist remarks.

It's always good to remember that "the end" does not "justify the means."

[old guy]

I see a number of people on this thread have some opinions on historical theories that differ from mine. That's fine. At least you have opinions and seem to have studied history. It's refreshing just to have a conversation about historical events even if you have a different point of view. I honestly feel that it would be easier to get through this recession if more people understood what happened during the great depression.

As far as the story that started this thread, I think it would be less likely that scenario could play itself out if people had a better understanding of history. I take all historical references with a grain of salt, question and cross reference facts. As someone mentioned, we do tend to see things the way we see them. It's possible to overcome that. Not easy but possible.

What's the old saying about history repeating itself? If there is a decline and fall of America I think it will be due to an over abundance of ignorance and complacency. It's time to wise up.

[gdogslim]

I agree with the above assessments of the decline of Roman empire, not just the vote getting entitlements and placating the citizens with handouts and theater games, only a small part.
But this is what is happening here as in the fall of the British empire. Spreading itself [[& US) too thin, too many projects and entitlements we can't afford, and unfunded liabilities and mandates.

Did you all see the news of all the states and cities that are bankrupt? This has been going on for twenty years yet you never see news about it. Unfunded pensions and Medicare is in the tens of trillions and it will eventually bring this country down financially if not taken care of and the politicians on both sides just want to placate people for votes with handouts and projects.

[Papasito]

As income tax time approaches, did you ever notice: When you put the two words 'The' and 'IRS' together, it spells
'THEIRS'?

[ghettopalmetto]

As income tax time approaches, did you ever notice: When you put the two words 'The' and 'IRS' together, it spells
'THEIRS'?

Wow! Did Glenn Beck show that to you on his magic chalkboard, or did you come up with that clever insight all by your lonesome?

Yes, America is going down the tubes because we pay taxes.

[maxx]

As far as the story that started this thread, I think it would be less likely that scenario could play itself out if people had a better understanding of history.

I'd be happy if most Americans had some idea of what is going on in Washington right now.

[Big Dog]

More than a few, just know what fox tells them, and they believe. No one can change their minds, even truth and facts mean nothing, no one can change them

[maxx]

More than a few, just know what fox tells them, and they believe. No one can change their minds, even truth and facts mean nothing, no one can change them

the gospel according to Fox

[1KielsonDrive]

You do the same God damned thing you do when you get off a motherfucking plane.

In the 1950s, did anyone dare to ask what we would do in order to accommodate the automobile-oriented lifestyle that was being forced on us? Did anyone ask, "Gee, I'd love to drive on the brand new Lodge Freeway, but what do I do with my car when I get downtown?" Fuck no, they didn't! They spent MILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO CREATE USELESS PARKING LOTS.

I'm tired of the excuses from your generation, Bailey. Folks your age have fucked us and left us for dead. The evidence is right in front of your face, in the form of present-day Detroit. We are fatter, stupider, lazier, more segregated, and more selfish than we have ever been. We all see how well that's working out--every asshole fighting each other for stupid-ass tax cuts while the Europeans and Asians [[especially) are busting their ass to eliminate American hegemony once and for all.

How about this--YOUR GENERATION DOES NOT GET TO DECIDE ANYMORE. You had your chance. It's over. We're fucked. The 20th Century experiment is done. Now get the hell out of the way.

Tell us how you really feel, GP. Right f+^#_^g on!

[1KielsonDrive]

As income tax time approaches, did you ever notice: When you put the two words 'The' and 'IRS' together, it spells
'THEIRS'?

Oh so cute. And so clever. Did you think this one up all by yourself? That's right - - - you got it from the teevee.

[maxx]

"How about this--YOUR GENERATION DOES NOT GET TO DECIDE ANYMORE. You had your chance. It's over. We're fucked. The 20th Century experiment is done. Now get the hell out of the way."

Wow. Bad-mouthing a whole generation. That's cold, as the young'uns say. And which generation would that be exactly? My generation fought the Vietnam war and marched against it. They promoted civil rights and denigrated it in some places.

[ghettopalmetto]

"How about this--YOUR GENERATION DOES NOT GET TO DECIDE ANYMORE. You had your chance. It's over. We're fucked. The 20th Century experiment is done. Now get the hell out of the way."

Wow. Bad-mouthing a whole generation. That's cold, as the young'uns say. And which generation would that be exactly? My generation fought the Vietnam war and marched against it. They promoted civil rights and denigrated it in some places.

You're not incorrect. But then the hippies by-and-large got old, found jobs, and sold out. We passed civil rights legislation, then spent billions of dollars creating brand new communities where we wouldn't have to interact with the people to whom we had just decided to treat as fellow men. We can all just live in our cars, and buy all of our [[Chinese-made) necessities from Walmart. Happy time.

I don't know about you, but my family didn't give up everything to get on a boat and come here just to sit on their fat ass in front of a television. We could stand a bit more of the immigrant work and social ethos instead of spending ridiculous amounts of time hoarding cash, discriminating against our neighbors, and raising lazy fat fuck kids.

Are we really too stupid to think that we're obligated to preserving the mistakes of our fathers and grandfathers? Do we really not have the wherewithal to get off our asses and alter the rules to fit a drastically changed paradigm? Oops, hold that thought--gotta check the sports scores from last night....

[firstandten]

This is a portion of a long e-mail a person sent me:

"The following are 19 facts about the deindustrialization of
America that will blow your mind....

#1 The United States has lost approximately 42,400 factories
since 2001. About 75 percent of those factories employed over 500
people when they were still in operation.

#2 Dell Inc., one of America's largest manufacturers of
computers, has announced plans to dramatically expand its operations
in China with an investment of over $100 billion over the next decade.

#3 Dell has announced that it will be closing its last large
U.S. manufacturing facility in Winston-Salem, North Carolina in
November. Approximately 900 jobs will be lost.

#4 In 2008, 1.2 billion cell phones were sold worldwide. So how
many of them were manufactured inside the United States? Zero.

#5 According to a new study conducted by the Economic Policy
Institute, if the U.S. trade deficit with China continues to increase
at its current rate, the U.S. economy will lose over half a million
jobs this year alone.

#6 As of the end of July, the U.S. trade deficit with China had
risen 18 percent compared to the same time period a year ago.

#7 The United States has lost a total of about 5.5 million
manufacturing jobs since October 2000.

#8 According to Tax Notes, between 1999 and 2008 employment at
the foreign affiliates of U.S. parent companies increased an
astounding 30 percent to 10.1 million. During that exact same time
period, U.S. employment at American multinational corporations
declined 8 percent to 21.1 million.

#9 In 1959, manufacturing represented 28 percent of U.S.
economic output. In 2008, it represented 11.5 percent
#10 Ford Motor Company recently announced the closure of a
factory that produces the Ford Ranger in St. Paul, Minnesota.
Approximately 750 good paying middle class jobs are going to be lost
because making Ford Rangers in Minnesota does not fit in with Ford's
new "global" manufacturing strategy.

#11 As of the end of 2009, fewer than 12 million Americans worked
in manufacturing. The last time fewer than 12 million Americans were
employed in manufacturing was in 1941.

#12 In the United States today, consumption accounts for 70
percent of GDP. Of this 70 percent, over half is spent on services.

#13 The United States has lost a whopping 32 percent of its
manufacturing jobs since the year 2000.

#14 In 2001, the United States ranked fourth in the world in per
capita broadband Internet use. Today it ranks 15th.

#15 Manufacturing employment in the U.S. computer industry is
actually lower in 2010 than it was in 1975.

#16 Printed circuit boards are used in tens of thousands of
different products. Asia now produces 84 percent of them worldwide.

#17 The United States spends approximately $3.90 on Chinese
goods for every $1 that the Chinese spend on goods from the United
States.

#18 One prominent economist is projecting that the Chinese
economy will be three times larger than the U.S. economy by the year
2040.

#19 The U.S. Census Bureau says that 43.6 million Americans are
now living in poverty and, according to them, that is the highest number
of poor Americans in the 51 years that records have been kept.

So how many tens of thousands more factories do we need to lose
before we do something about it?

How many millions more Americans are going to become unemployed
before we all admit that we have a very, very serious problem on our
hands?

How many more trillions of dollars are going to leave the
country before we realize that we are losing wealth at a pace that is
killing our economy?

How many once great manufacturing cities are going to become
rotting war zones like Detroit before we understand that we are
committing national economic suicide? "

[oladub]

firstand ten, An impressive list of vital statistics. It looks like we are close to flatlining but defibrillation won't help until the hemorrhaging is staunched. NAFTA, GATT, etc. have proven destructive to the patient's health. I prescribe a dose of import taxes to replace some middle class income taxes. Since the old medicine wasn't working, it's time to change the prescription.

[gdogslim]

I know the decline of Rome was caused by many factors, again, I never said it wasn't.
I took Latin, traveled to Italy and Greece and know a good amount of history.

I am making a point about entiltlement babies thinking the governement owes them something for being alive in the U.S. and poilticians playing off that by trying to get votes from entitlement babies by promising them this and that and the next thing, this goes on from all sides of the political spectrum in different forms as we all know.

China has 600 million people that make $3.00 or less a day. [[that's 2 times bigger than us)
They have to sell cheap stuff to us because most their own country can't afford their own stuff.
This country will come back stronger in the long run, DESPITE what the socialists do to redistribute wealth.

[Whitehouse]

As income tax time approaches, did you ever notice: When you put the two words 'The' and 'IRS' together, it spells
'THEIRS'?

Did you know that Papasito is an anagran for Pasta Poi???!!!


And Theirs is an anagram for Er...... Shit!!!

Which is exactly the phrase I will be saying when this happens.

[firstandten]

firstand ten, An impressive list of vital statistics. It looks like we are close to flatlining but defibrillation won't help until the hemorrhaging is staunched. NAFTA, GATT, etc. have proven destructive to the patient's health. I prescribe a dose of import taxes to replace some middle class income taxes. Since the old medicine wasn't working, it's time to change the prescription.

Agreed, we need to get to the root of the problem, unfortunately our economy is in such a fragile condition we can't afford to upset any of our trade partners with import taxes

[oladub]

Agreed, we need to get to the root of the problem, unfortunately our economy is in such a fragile condition we can't afford to upset any of our trade partners with import taxes

Why not? Those trading 'partners' are the present beneficiaries while US workers and taxpayers are the present losers. How else are we going to get at the root of the problem?