The Decline & Fall Of The American Empire

[ghettopalmetto]

1) I can't justify spending $880M for a train already served by seven busses going in each direction daily for $17.50 per ride and without subsidies.

Does Badger Bus continue onward to Chicago? Minneapolis? What happens if your destination is beyond Madison or Milwaukee? I guess you're just fucked then, huh?

2) The money could be better spent upgrading the entire line between Minneapolis and Chicago or spent running the same train service between Chicago and Milwaukee.

Guess which corridor Madison-Milwaukee is part of, geography genius?

Trains are great if they have the population to sustain them. Six trains daily between Milwaukee and Madison, population 231,000, is a fantasy. it would be similar to running six trains a day to Grand Rapids from Detroit every day except that Detroit and Grand Rapids have a greater combined population.

I've been to cities in Europe the same size as Madison that have at least 40 trains a day.

4) The Spanish rolling stock is not compatable with Amtrak equipment and will consequently create problems with Amtrak service.

Why would the new equipment need to "be compatible" with Amtrak equipment? Amtrak runs several differerent types of locomotives across the country. What do you even mean by this statement?

I would also spend money on a Detroit-Toledo high speed rail route before upgrading the Wolverine to Chicago. Money saved could be applied to the high speed Chicago-East Coast route. That way, Detroit residents could get to the East Coast faster by rail and the Chicago-east Coast could be running sooner.

You talk to John Kasich about that. His single-handed decision to kill the 3C rail project puts any connection to Ohio in jeopardy. The Detroit-Toledo corridor would have been the next phase in that project.

[bailey]

Does Badger Bus continue onward to Chicago? Minneapolis? What happens if your destination is beyond Madison or Milwaukee? I guess you're just fucked then, huh?

aren't you just as fucked if you take a train to detroit from Ann Arbor...and vice versa?

I've been to cities in Europe the same size as Madison that have at least 40 trains a day.

and there is demand for that level of service because no one drives as gas is 10 dollars a gallon due to the tax placed on it. Would there be the same demand if owning a car and driving was a cheap as it is here?

You talk to John Kasich about that. His single-handed decision to kill the 3C rail project puts any connection to Ohio in jeopardy. The Detroit-Toledo corridor would have been the next phase in that project.

well, again, what does one do once they get off the train in Toledo and need to get over to Sylvania.

These people have a point. Just dumping money into some rail isn't going to fix the situation unless it's part of a comprehensive overhaul and re-planning of the entire system. Its great if i can get from Grand rapid to Detroit in an hour...but what do I do when I get off the train in Detroit and need to be Birmingham?

[old guy]

[QUOTE=oladub;207428] Nor is walker anti-trains per se.
[COLOR="DarkGreen""[/COLOR]

Walker isn't anti train? Really.

http://www.notrain.com/


What’s more, because of Walker’s narrow-minded politics, the Spanish train
manufacturing company Talgo, which moved into Wisconsin for this project,
is closing its Milwaukee plant and taking the much-needed jobs with it:
Talgo Inc., the Spanish manufacturer of high-speed train cars, will
abandon its plant in Milwaukee in 2012, according to Nora Friend, a
spokeswoman for the company. “We can’t stay and manufacture in Milwaukee without the high-speed rail to Madison,” Friend said. “This is terrible news.”
Friend said the state’s decision to back away from the high-speed
rail project sends a terrible message to businesses considering locating
in the state.
“We were encouraged by the business community,” Friend said. “We are
really discouraged by what has happened.”
State residents should also be discouraged, she said. Talgo and the
construction of the rail line would have created jobs badly needed in the
construction industry.
“For anybody to think that there is another $800 million to invest in
another project is foolish,” she said. “There is no other pool of money.”
Talgo currently employs 40 people in Milwaukee, WI and “was hoping to
grow their staff to as many as 125 to fulfill the orders” that current
Gov. Jim Doyle [[D) and his administration had made in preparation for the
project. Those orders would’ve spurred some 13,000 badly-needed jobs in a
state facing a 7.8 percent unemployment rate. [[Ohio will lose 16,000
jobs.) Instead, Talgo plans to take that business to three of the states
that will share in the federal money taken away from Wisconsin and Ohio,
most notably Florida.

From the N.Y. Times

"Mr. Walker, the candidate in Wisconsin, said in an interview that he doubted many people would ride the train between Milwaukee and Madison. He said that it would be more expensive than a car trip without saving much time, and added that he worried about having to provide an annual subsidy to run the train."

That might be true unless you don't own a car or drive a vehicle that you're nervous about driving a distance or into a large metropolitan area.

[maxx]

I don't get all the interest in high-speed rail over 300-mile distances. People still have planes and buses, and they still love their cars. Wisconsin-Minneapolis and Detroit-Chicago don't require high-speed. And you can say they are just part of a bigger system, but the bigger system is decades away and meanwhile the smaller spurs have to be paid for. If it's for the convenience of business people, the internet and computers have made teleconferencing a reality. And if they really NEED highspeed, they can pay for it. So just what are the benefits aside from the obvious one of quicker transport?

[oladub]

Augustiner: You're splitting hairs. You know what I meant.

No splitting hairs. Your quote was " He did it anyway" [[past tense). I pointed out that Walker did not do anything as Governor Elect because Doyle still has the power. Doyle may have given the money back to Obama but Walker could not have.

Provide me some non-circumstantial evidence for this or I'll continue to assume you're making it up.

Are you suggesting that Obama hasn't already reassigned the money to California? I thought that was a fact. Are you also suggesting that California isn't in a fiscal crises largely of it's own making or that Governor Elect Brown hasn't made noises about cutting California school aid 20% because the budget mess was worse than he thought? That also can be looked up. If you are questioning my guess that Obama was quick to buoy his faltering friends in California the circumstantial proof is in the pudding with the this gift and the largess poured on California teachers unions and the like under Porkulus. I can't prove his motives; only point to suggestive patterns.

So you're arguing that this money will help California's fiscal situation? Why do you think it will bankrupt Wisconsin, then?
Maybe not, but I still have no evidence that he wanted the Milwaukee-Madison money applied to the direct Minneapolis-Chicago service. You can't blame Obama for refusing a request that Walker never made.

Any money will help California's fiscal situation. I didn't say it would bankrupt Wisconsin. I said that Governor Doyle has made Wisconsin one of the 10 most fiscally bankrupt states. Also, I didn't use the word 'blame'. I did note that it was Obama who directed the money away from light rail in Wisconsin and not the still out of power Governor Elect Walker.

Well, there you go. That's all there is to this story. Wisconsin and Ohio were offered funds for a specific purpose: high-speed passenger rail. They didn't want to use the money for that purpose, so they lost it. Simple as that. If Obama just wanted to randomly give money to California and Florida, wouldn't he have done that in the first place instead of making a big show of offering it to Ohio and Wisconsin

?

Rather than wait for the incoming Governor to submit an alternative spending for high speed rail in Wisconsin, improving Amtrak tracks instead of buying no-bid Spanish trains for an unpopulated routing for instance, Doyle seems to have betrayed Wisconsin residents by giving back the money and Obama had it spent elsewhere in in a millisecond. Let's just watch to see if Gov. Doyle is offered a job by the Obama administration. Good doggie.

[oladub]

ghettopalmetto: Does Badger Bus continue onward to Chicago? Minneapolis? What happens if your destination is beyond Madison or Milwaukee? I guess you're just fucked then, huh?

No, because Amtrak, various airlines, Megabus, Greyhound, and VanGalder lines already connect Madison with Chicago. Your really need to do your homework. Or if your destination is between Chicago and Milwaukee, Amtrak and Greyhound already serve that corridor too. I previously pointed out the successful Amtrak Hiawatha route which Governor Elect Walker said he would subsidize with state money.

Guess which corridor Madison-Milwaukee is part of, geography genius?

I don't know because as I pointed out in a previous post, the routing is up in the air and if the Governor of Illinois has his way, the route will bypass Wisconsin. Had you read my previous post you wouldn't have asked that question.

I've been to cities in Europe the same size as Madison that have at least 40 trains a day.

Congratulations. Bailey pointed out higher gas prices. I would point out dissimilar population desities and sprawl as affecting the equation. If it takes a half hour to get downtown to get on a high speed train and maybe you have to be there an hour and a half for security if Big Sis has her way, how much time is the high speed rail going to save on a trip the bus already makes in 1 hour and 50 minutes?

Why would the new equipment need to "be compatible" with Amtrak equipment? Amtrak runs several differerent types of locomotives across the country. What do you even mean by this statement?

It will fit on the same track at least but require different maintainance. I've noticed in Amtrak brochures that certain equipment is used on Western Routes and other equipment on Eastern routes. I don't know, for instance if the doors on the Spanish equipment would mesh with standard Amtrak equipment.

[oladub]

[QUOTE=old guy;207507]

Nor is walker anti-trains per se.
[COLOR="DarkGreen""[/COLOR]

Walker isn't anti train? Really.

http://www.notrain.com/


What’s more, because of Walker’s narrow-minded politics

From the N.Y. Times

"Mr. Walker, the candidate in Wisconsin, said in an interview that he doubted many people would ride the train between Milwaukee and Madison. He said that it would be more expensive than a car trip without saving much time, and added that he worried about having to provide an annual subsidy to run the train."

That might be true unless you don't own a car or drive a vehicle that you're nervous about driving a distance or into a large metropolitan area.

Imagine all the jobs Jim Doyle could have created just digging holes and filling them up again. At least the State wouldn't have then been stuck with subsidizing a boondoggle for infinity. When I got to the term"narrow minded politics' it became clear what the take was going to be. And, please, the remark about being afraid to drive into a metropolitan area is a bit over the top since that is where the present buses and cars come from. Even Amtrak already connects downtown Milwaukee with exurban Madison. i think you would do better to refute Walker's criticisms as reported by the NY Times. Please use numbers and facts if possible. Or you could go back and answer the questions I asked GP which he keeps ignoring.

[Augustiner]

No splitting hairs. Your quote was " He did it anyway" [[past tense). I pointed out that Walker did not do anything as Governor Elect because Doyle still has the power. Doyle may have given the money back to Obama but Walker could not have.

Walker made clear that he was going to kill the project as soon as he got into office. Doyle stopped work on it because it'd be pointless to spend the next month working on it and then have Walker stop it.

If you are questioning my guess that Obama was quick to buoy his faltering friends in California the circumstantial proof is in the pudding with the this gift and the largess poured on California teachers unions and the like under Porkulus. I can't prove his motives; only point to suggestive patterns.

This is indeed what I am questioning, and I think you're being paranoid.

Any money will help California's fiscal situation. I didn't say it would bankrupt Wisconsin. I said that Governor Doyle has made Wisconsin one of the 10 most fiscally bankrupt states.

Okay, so you didn't say "bankrupt." But both you and Scott Walker seem to think that, due to the operating costs that Wisconsin will have to pay for the train, it will be more of a liability than an asset. In California's case, you seem convinced of the opposite.

Also, I didn't use the word 'blame'. I did note that it was Obama who directed the money away from light rail in Wisconsin and not the still out of power Governor Elect Walker.

First off, it's not "light rail." Second, Walker said he was going to kill the project on which the money was going to be spent. It was a done deal, and was only waiting for him to assume office. The Obama administration technically took the money off the table, but only because Walker didn't want it. If Walker had not taken this attitude, the money would still be going to Wisconsin and the planned line would still be under construction. I don't understand why this is so hard for you to grasp, unless you have some pathological need to blame everything on Obama.

Rather than wait for the incoming Governor to submit an alternative spending for high speed rail in Wisconsin, improving Amtrak tracks instead of buying no-bid Spanish trains for an unpopulated routing for instance, Doyle seems to have betrayed Wisconsin residents by giving back the money and Obama had it spent elsewhere in in a millisecond. Let's just watch to see if Gov. Doyle is offered a job by the Obama administration. Good doggie.

You're living in an alternate universe. The incoming governor wasn't going to submit jackshit. Did you even read that letter of his that you posted upthread?

[old guy]

Since the program was already underway, money was being spent. When Walker became governor elect, he said there was no way he was going to accept the project. Doyle felt they were just throwing money away if the project was going to be halted and in a surprising move halted the project. In hindsight, his doing that did actually save the state some money.

I'm also not saying that this would have been the absolute best plan but after seeing the larger picture I understood why we needed to be a link.

I also don't quite understand the straight line concept. If you're familiar with the topography of this state I'm sure you'd understand the immense cost of drawing a straight line and saying this is where the train will run.

As far as the bus lines, they're very busy. There are also a number of these buses that run from Madison to Ohare and the train depot in the Chicago loop. Sometimes you can't take them because they're full to capacity.

The interstate between Madison and Milwaukee is extremely congested most of the time and like most interstates is also subsidized.

I live between Madison and Minneapolis and have the luxury of being able to walk 4 blocks from my house or 1 block from my office and hopping on a train. I can travel to downtown Milwaukee or stay on the train and get off in the loop in Chicago. Or I can head the other way and end up in Minneapolis. Last year I hopped on the train near my house and ended up in Ann Arbor. That train is hard to get tickets for unless you do it well in advance. Unfortunately I can't take a train to Madison.

Oladub, I understand why you're questioning the viability of a high speed line in this area. I'm just unsure of where some of your facts come from. Not all the money is being sent to California, Florida seems willing to accept a portion of it. I believe there are also several other states that are going to get a piece of the pie. It's not all going to Obama's buddies.

I think the original story this thread is built around touts the fact that if we stay on the course we're on, there will be consequences. I don't think we can wait ten years to start building a smarter infrastructure.

Just in the small tourist area I live in, over 6,000 students from Eastern Europe and China travel here every summer to fill jobs that can't be filled. During the winter we have several thousand students working here from Brazil. We don't have jet service to this area. These kids take trains. I'm amazed at how full the trains and buses are.

I prefer taking the train to Chicago rather than driving. Even though it seems cheaper to drive, once I factor in parking at a loop hotel for an additional $35 - $55 per night for several nights on top of the hotel rate, it really isn't cheaper.

[oladub]

Augustiner; Walker made clear that he was going to kill the project as soon as he got into office. Doyle stopped work on it because it'd be pointless to spend the next month working on it and then have Walker stop it.
This is indeed what I am questioning, and I think you're being paranoid.

Thank you for finally agreeing that it was Doyle who took the money off the table rather than Walker. I'm not sure though that he had to hand it back right away though thereby foregoing the possibilities of any resolution.

Okay, so you didn't say "bankrupt." But both you and Scott Walker seem to think that, due to the operating costs that Wisconsin will have to pay for the train, it will be more of a liability than an asset. In California's case, you seem convinced of the opposite.

I did not venture to even suggest one way or the other whether spending the money in California will be more or less cost efficient. It wouldn't seem to be a consideration in California at any rate.

First off, it's not "light rail." Second, Walker said he was going to kill the project on which the money was going to be spent. It was a done deal, and was only waiting for him to assume office. The Obama administration technically took the money off the table, but only because Walker didn't want it. If Walker had not taken this attitude, the money would still be going to Wisconsin and the planned line would still be under construction. I don't understand why this is so hard for you to grasp, unless you have some pathological need to blame everything on Obama.

My mistake, 'light rail' came out when I meant 'fast rail'. Thank you for the correction. I did point out in article which stated that Walker wants to apply state subsidies to boost the Milwaukee-Chicago Amtrak route. May I suggest that he would gladly have used the Obama high speed rail money for improvements on that line rather than state funds. We will never know though because Doyle was in such a snit that he handed the money back rather than allow Walker to do anything with it.

You're living in an alternate universe. The incoming governor wasn't going to submit jackshit. Did you even read that letter of his that you posted upthread?[/QUOTE]

Did you ever even read what i posted before. In case you didn't, I will repost it.
"Walker argues that the state is overestimating the number of people who will take the train, which would leave state taxpayers on the hook for more than the $6 million to $7 million the state says will be required annually for ongoing maintenance and support. Residents of the Milwaukee area can get to Madison cheaper and faster by taking a car than by riding the train, the candidate argues.

That’s the key difference, Walker says, between the Milwaukee-to-Madison route and the popular Hiawatha line that runs from Milwaukee to Chicago already. People are willing to take the Hiawatha because it can save them time in traffic or money for parking. More than 740,000 riders took it in 2009, a 50-percent increase from seven years earlier. Walker supports state subsidies for the existing route, but not for its extension to Madison. He points out that an Amtrak train already runs from Chicago to the Twin Cities, even though it bypasses Madison."
http://www.digitalcommunities.com/ar...peed-Rail.html

You failed to come up with any numbers although you did use the terms "paranoid, hard for you to grasp, pathological need to blame everything on Obama, living in an alternate universe". Name calling, in my opinion suggests an inability to to substantiate an argument with facts or numbers and is a fallback position but if you wanted to answer the questions I've twice asked GP, and he has ignored, I would be obliged.

[Augustiner]

My mistake, 'light rail' came out when I meant 'fast rail'. Thank you for the correction. I did point out in article which stated that Walker wants to apply state subsidies to boost the Milwaukee-Chicago Amtrak route. May I suggest that he would gladly have used the Obama high speed rail money for improvements on that line rather than state funds. We will never know though because Doyle was in such a snit that he handed the money back rather than allow Walker to do anything with it.

Walker couldn't have done anything with it except build the line for which it was allocated. That's usually the case with pots of federal money for transit capital improvements; they're designated for a specific project, and have to either be used for that project or returned to the feds. That's why DDOT was building a brand-new transit center at the same time it was cutting back service. Like it or not, them's the rules.

Did you ever even read what i posted before. In case you didn't, I will repost it.
"Walker argues that the state is overestimating the number of people who will take the train, which would leave state taxpayers on the hook for more than the $6 million to $7 million the state says will be required annually for ongoing maintenance and support. Residents of the Milwaukee area can get to Madison cheaper and faster by taking a car than by riding the train, the candidate argues.

That’s the key difference, Walker says, between the Milwaukee-to-Madison route and the popular Hiawatha line that runs from Milwaukee to Chicago already. People are willing to take the Hiawatha because it can save them time in traffic or money for parking. More than 740,000 riders took it in 2009, a 50-percent increase from seven years earlier. Walker supports state subsidies for the existing route, but not for its extension to Madison. He points out that an Amtrak train already runs from Chicago to the Twin Cities, even though it bypasses Madison."
http://www.digitalcommunities.com/ar...peed-Rail.html

This does not constitute a proposal for the use of federal high-speed rail funds. If no such proposal exists, and I've not seen any evidence that it does, it's hard to fault the Obama administration for not leaving the money on the table indefinitely in case such a proposal should materialize.

You failed to come up with any numbers although you did use the terms "paranoid, hard for you to grasp, pathological need to blame everything on Obama, living in an alternate universe". Name calling, in my opinion suggests an inability to to substantiate an argument with facts or numbers and is a fallback position

Sorry for being rude, but I don't think I called you any names.

but if you wanted to answer the questions I've twice asked GP, and he has ignored, I would be obliged.

I don't have the answers to any of those questions. I don't know what the Badger Bus is. I live in Detroit. I'm talking about federal funds for high speed rail, and how they are and are not allowed to be used.

[ghettopalmetto]

well, again, what does one do once they get off the train in Toledo and need to get over to Sylvania.

You do the same God damned thing you do when you get off a motherfucking plane.

In the 1950s, did anyone dare to ask what we would do in order to accommodate the automobile-oriented lifestyle that was being forced on us? Did anyone ask, "Gee, I'd love to drive on the brand new Lodge Freeway, but what do I do with my car when I get downtown?" Fuck no, they didn't! They spent MILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO CREATE USELESS PARKING LOTS.

I'm tired of the excuses from your generation, Bailey. Folks your age have fucked us and left us for dead. The evidence is right in front of your face, in the form of present-day Detroit. We are fatter, stupider, lazier, more segregated, and more selfish than we have ever been. We all see how well that's working out--every asshole fighting each other for stupid-ass tax cuts while the Europeans and Asians [[especially) are busting their ass to eliminate American hegemony once and for all.

How about this--YOUR GENERATION DOES NOT GET TO DECIDE ANYMORE. You had your chance. It's over. We're fucked. The 20th Century experiment is done. Now get the hell out of the way.

[old guy]

And, please, the remark about being afraid to drive into a metropolitan area is a bit over the top since that is where the present buses and cars come from.

Sorry, maybe I should have said apprehensive. About 6 years ago my car just shut down while I was heading westbound on the Eisenhower between Ashland Ave. and Racine Ave. in the center lane during rush hour. That WAS scary. I think I'm still paying for it too. Events like that have a tendency to stick in your mind.

[bailey]

You do the same God damned thing you do when you get off a motherfucking plane.

who the fuck is flying from detroit to toledo? This is about a commuter rail line between here and there. Fine, I'm on board with it....but what the fuck good is it if it takes longer to get there and still HAVE TO RENT A MOTHERFUCKING CAR when I get there. If the State or the metro region HAS no effective means of local mass transit, why the fuck would you NOT drive there? Which was the point of the rejection of the funds. To make it work, billions more are needed to have the destination cities transit sytems upgraded to make the inter city lines worthwhile.

I'm tired of the excuses from your generation, Bailey. Folks your age have fucked us and left us for dead. The evidence is right in front of your face, in the form of present-day Detroit. We are fatter, stupider, lazier, more segregated, and more selfish than we have ever been. We all see how well that's working out--every asshole fighting each other for stupid-ass tax cuts while the Europeans and Asians [[especially) are busting their ass to eliminate American hegemony once and for all.

My generation? I'm on the low end of Generation X. I don't disagree that there should be more mass transit. However you..like alot of my generation spend too much time playing sim city and seem to simply want to use a mouse to double click in a train station here and a rail line there without ANY consideration of where its going to go, who it will serve, or how much it will cost to maintian BOTH a rail system AND the half a century old and crumbling road network we already have which is not going away. Build it and they will come is not an urban planning strategy.--- see Mover, People.

You want a european system of transit then back the fuck up and come up with a way to fucking pay for it. I'm down with an 8 dollar a gallon tax for it....are you? you think the rest of the country THAT DOESN'T live within walking distance of work is? We need to get people out of their cars locally before they are going to give a shit about getting between cities by rail.

How about this--YOUR GENERATION DOES NOT GET TO DECIDE ANYMORE. You had your chance. It's over. We're fucked. The 20th Century experiment is done. Now get the hell out of the way.

Aside from the fact that I am under forty... if you're in charge--- I'll take my chances doing it the old way.

[ghettopalmetto]

Bailey,

Apologies for my rant. I'm simply a hard-working, frustrated person that despises what his country has become. My forefathers did not give up their homes and get on a boat to get fat and complacent.

We're talking about high-speed [[i.e. intercity) rail here. The kind that works well in ranges of up to 500 miles. The kind where, when you get off the train in Europe or the Northeastern US, you have a variety of travel options, including foot, bike, bus, tram, or yes--rental car.

Yes, I say tax the shit out of gasoline. Impose tolls on the Interstates such that the tolls cover maintenance, and gasoline tax funds can be used for capital projects instead of asphalt patching.
If a few people find it necessary to adjust their lifestyles as a result, go ahead--it's a free country.

Frankly, I'm fed up. Not with you, personally, but with the status quo. With this so-called American Exceptionalism bullshit. I'm tired of the lies, the excuses, the laziness and superficiality. I'm here to make this a better place than when I found it, and quite honestly, it looks like we're already too late. If it didn't involve a huge cut in income [[my student loans have to get paid somehow), then I'd be out of here already. This country, as it exists, fucking blows.

[oladub]

Since the program was already underway, money was being spent. When Walker became governor elect, he said there was no way he was going to accept the project. Doyle felt they were just throwing money away if the project was going to be halted and in a surprising move halted the project. In hindsight, his doing that did actually save the state some money.

I'm also not saying that this would have been the absolute best plan but after seeing the larger picture I understood why we needed to be a link.

I also don't quite understand the straight line concept. If you're familiar with the topography of this state I'm sure you'd understand the immense cost of drawing a straight line and saying this is where the train will run.

As far as the bus lines, they're very busy. There are also a number of these buses that run from Madison to Ohare and the train depot in the Chicago loop. Sometimes you can't take them because they're full to capacity.

The interstate between Madison and Milwaukee is extremely congested most of the time and like most interstates is also subsidized.

I live between Madison and Minneapolis and have the luxury of being able to walk 4 blocks from my house or 1 block from my office and hopping on a train. I can travel to downtown Milwaukee or stay on the train and get off in the loop in Chicago. Or I can head the other way and end up in Minneapolis. Last year I hopped on the train near my house and ended up in Ann Arbor. That train is hard to get tickets for unless you do it well in advance. Unfortunately I can't take a train to Madison.

Oladub, I understand why you're questioning the viability of a high speed line in this area. I'm just unsure of where some of your facts come from. Not all the money is being sent to California, Florida seems willing to accept a portion of it. I believe there are also several other states that are going to get a piece of the pie. It's not all going to Obama's buddies.

I think the original story this thread is built around touts the fact that if we stay on the course we're on, there will be consequences. I don't think we can wait ten years to start building a smarter infrastructure.

Just in the small tourist area I live in, over 6,000 students from Eastern Europe and China travel here every summer to fill jobs that can't be filled. During the winter we have several thousand students working here from Brazil. We don't have jet service to this area. These kids take trains. I'm amazed at how full the trains and buses are.

I prefer taking the train to Chicago rather than driving. Even though it seems cheaper to drive, once I factor in parking at a loop hotel for an additional $35 - $55 per night for several nights on top of the hotel rate, it really isn't cheaper.

old guy, A most interesting post and worthy of starting new threads. I take it that you must be somewhere around the Dells which is north of Madison rather than between Madison and Milwaukee and is served by Amtrak. If your numbers are correct, it is surprising that there are not more Americans demanding those minimum wage jobs. It would be at least a good way of brushing up on Portugese or Polish while getting paid. My guess is that the motels prefer hiring legal polish workers to looking a bit harder to find unemployed US minorities. I saw this before when was in the Seafarers Union. Working in Wisconsin this winter must be bracing for Brazilians. It was -17 here a couple of mornings ago. I waited until it got up to about -5 before I went out and shoveled.

No. I agree it wasn't the absolute best plan. The best plan would have stretched those dollars so, in the long run or larger picture, more people would have access to high speed rails. I only wish that Doyle would have put a hold on everything and let Walker hand the money back if nothing could have been worked out. Doyle's action, to me, speaks of his loyalty when his choice was between obama and the people of Wisconsin. If he had a court order, fine, then he would have had to hand it back but I think he did so prematurely.

The straight line concept had to do with the concept of high speed vs. political expediency. i realize that hills, rivers, etc, prevent perfectly straight lines. It depends whether the Minneapolis-Chicago link is looked at as part of a broader eventual Seattle-East Coast route or if we just consider the politics of Wisconsin at the other extreme. Some decision has to be made whether a swing to Milwaukee is worth slowing down a cross country high speed train by fifteen minutes.

Buses are easy to supply. When I used to unload buses at the detroit greyhound terminal. Greyhound used to send multiple busses out when one was scheduled to accommodate the Christmas rush. Adding more rolling stock to the existing Amtrak route through Wisconsin and improving tracks to accommodate higher speeds would have been a good use of the Spanish train money. This seems so simple and would have partially addressed your problem with Amtrak reservations.

I also agree with the main point of this thread's linked article which touts the fact that if we stay on the course we're on, there will be consequences. I don't think we can wait ten years to start building a smarter infrastructure either but I want the maximum squeezed out of every taxpayer dollar spent so we can have more infrastructure.

[DetroitDad]

• Closing the 'Collapse Gap': the USSR was better prepared for collapse than the US. This is an interesting article by a gentlemen who survived the collapse of the Soviet Union. This has been posted on DetroitYES before, but is a very interesting read.
• Predictions of Soviet Collapse.

[partyhardy]

However you..like alot of my generation spend too much time playing sim city

I LOVE Sim City!!!

[ghettopalmetto]

The fact that we are even having a debate on whether or not high-speed rail is a wise expenditure demonstrates how shockingly behind the rest of the civilized world we are.

This report from the Energy Information Administration was released yesterday. It predicts that in 25 years, a barrel of oil could reach of price of $200, and a gallon of gasoline is expected to retail for $3.69. Mind you, the report assumes less petroleum use in the United States due to hybrid and electric vehicles, and attributes most of the rise to global demand [[i.e. China and India).

How are we going to respond to this? We can't afford to keep driving everywhere for everything. And we can barely afford to maintain our road network as it is--what will we do when the price of asphalt goes through the roof? Constructing 12-and-15-lane freeways a la Atlanta [[which is a tack that doesn't work to begin with) seems even more preposterous in this context.

Add to that , we're expected to add another 35 million drivers within the next 25 years. Can we seriously expect our roadway network to absorb an 18% increase in vehicles? If you think about it, our cities are our economic engines--most new people in this country will reside in our metropolitan areas. We ain't exactly founding new cities left-and-right these days--people will go where the jobs already are rather than set up a new metropolis in a cornfield.

Our need for a halfway decent rail system is only going to grow exponentially in the future. We *will* reach a point in my lifetime where moving people around will become physically impossible--never mind cost prohibitive. We are obligated to rethink how we build our cities and how we connect them together. This is not a "nice thing to have" or a "luxurious toy" as folks like John Kasich and Scott Walker would have you believe. A functioning high-speed rail network will be an outright necessity if we're to have a snowball's chance in hell of surviving beyond the next 25 years. And given that these things take time to design, fund, and construct, we can't begin moving soon enough. ANY upgrade toward better rail service is going to help at this point. We really can't do any wrong by moving forward.

[old guy]

Good conversation. And yes Oladub that might make for an interesting thread at some point. The low paying jobs they're filling actually cost more when you factor in the cost of getting them here. Although the service companies don't spend that much to help them, it turns a low wage into a medium wage that a lot of people in this country could use.

And although I don't like Scott Walker in any way, shape or form, Doyle was kind of a nob.

Good point GP.

[canuck]

The fact that we are even having a debate on whether or not high-speed rail is a wise expenditure demonstrates how shockingly behind the rest of the civilized world we are.

This report from the Energy Information Administration was released yesterday. It predicts that in 25 years, a barrel of oil could reach of price of $200, and a gallon of gasoline is expected to retail for $3.69. Mind you, the report assumes less petroleum use in the United States due to hybrid and electric vehicles, and attributes most of the rise to global demand [[i.e. China and India).

I just paid the equivalent of 4,39$ a US gallon for gasoline in Montreal a couple of hours ago. That to me is not catastrophic but your point about the lack of options is more poignant. Detroit needs better mass transit and likewise the US and Canada need better trains and frequency and dedicated lines for all this.

[oladub]

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto
The fact that we are even having a debate on whether or not high-speed rail is a wise expenditure demonstrates how shockingly behind the rest of the civilized world we are.

Canuck:I just paid the equivalent of 4,39$ a US gallon for gasoline in Montreal a couple of hours ago. That to me is not catastrophic but your point about the lack of options is more poignant. Detroit needs better mass transit and likewise the US and Canada need better trains and frequency and dedicated lines for all this.

There doesn't seem to be much disagreement that more rail lines are desirable. The point of contention is 'at what price?' Even Gov. Walker wants to put more state money into the highly successful Milwaukee-Chicago Hiawatha line. But unless you can show us otherwise, the amortization of Gov. Doyle's legacy train will cost US taxpayers over $4M/month. This is for a higher speed rail on a route already served by Badger bus, Amtrak, and airlines. Badger Bus goes downtown to downtown for $17.50 in one hour and fifty minutes including convenience stops on the edges of Madison and Milwaukee. What I don't know is what will the train fare be, how many minutes of travel time will be saved for the average passenger, how many passengers will be required, at that price, to pay down the $4M/month amortization, and how many additional jobs will be created after job losses at Badger bus are accounted for.

One caller to Wisconsin Public Radio claimed that to take his family of four round trip to Milwaukee from Madison on the proposed high speed train would involve four bus fares and time to take a bus to the new rail terminal, the cost of four train tickets, and a car rental or four bus tickets to get where he wanted to go in Milwaukee. He estimated that the high speed train would take more time and the trip for four would cost over $200. According to Rand-McNally, the 77 mile trip takes 1 hour and 12 minutes. That's why he preferred to use his car. However, the high speed train would save time and possibly money for individuals going from one downtown to the other if Big Sis doesn't step up security.

At $4.39/gallon, a 22mpg car would consume $15.78 of gas each way.

[gdogslim]

His simplistic liberal hit peice on Bush and the decline of the US is a joke.
He points out some historical truths but tying the reasoning between them is incorrect.
I agree with his assessment that the US is declining and China will continue to grow and may dominate, The do have over 4 times our population [[if china doesn't self implode from a revolution)
Also, Greed did not make this nation the greatest nation in history. The Constitution and Declaration layed the foundation for it.
Now it is being attacked by libs on every front to tear it apart and rearange it and ignore it.

It is the FREEDOM of it's people from a over reaching tyranicle government that attempts to impose its will on the individual. Make no mistake, Obama is a wolf in sheeps clothing.
Obama and the Demorats ARE trying every chance they can to have the Federal Fascists control as much of your life as possible and take away your freedoms. Just watch the news.

When the people of a nation are dependent on the government to live, then all liberty is lost.

The decline of Rome was the 'raise the dole' mentality of the entitlement whiners who wanted something for nothing and live off the bread crumbs of the workers, AND the overreaching of the government to tax the shit out of anyone they could.

RE: Alfred W. McCoy article
"Future historians are likely to identify the Bush administration’s rash invasion of Iraq in that year as the start of America's downfall. However, instead of the bloodshed that marked the end of so many past empires, with cities burning and civilians slaughtered, this twenty-first century imperial collapse could come relatively quietly through the invisible tendrils of economic collapse or cyberwarfare."

-Yeah, right Al. Nice try at a weak spin attempt on history. It figures, coming from a Madison-Wisconson professor.

[Augustiner]

Obama and the Demorats ARE trying every chance they can to have the Federal Fascists control as much of your life as possible and take away your freedoms. Just watch the news.

By "the news" do you mean Fox, by any chance? If so, that might be your problem.

In eight of the nine questions below, Fox News placed first in the percentage of those who were misinformed [[they placed second in the question on TARP). That’s a pretty high batting average for journalistic fraud. Here is a list of what Fox News viewers believe that just aint so:

• 91 percent believe the stimulus legislation lost jobs
• 72 percent believe the health reform law will increase the deficit
• 72 percent believe the economy is getting worse
• 60 percent believe climate change is not occurring
• 49 percent believe income taxes have gone up
• 63 percent believe the stimulus legislation did not include any tax cuts
• 56 percent believe Obama initiated the GM/Chrysler bailout
• 38 percent believe that most Republicans opposed TARP
• 63 percent believe Obama was not born in the U.S. [[or that it is unclear)

[old guy]

The decline of Rome was the 'raise the dole' mentality of the entitlement whiners who wanted something for nothing and live off the bread crumbs of the workers, AND the overreaching of the government to tax the shit out of anyone they could.

The decline of Rome can be traced to a number of reasons. One major reason was due to a crumbling infrastructure. It's easy to draw an analogy between the old saying that Nero fiddled while Rome burned and our current political climate. Although Nero didn't actually play the fiddle, he lived lavishly off the high taxes and ignored the infrastructure in an empire that had grown to gigantic proportions.
Why does all that seem familiar?

People might learn something by reading about the fall of the Roman Empire. It's downright eerie.