The Decline & Fall Of The American Empire

[313WX]

http://www.thenation.com/article/156...merican-empire

[Patrick]

That article is pretty close to the truth. Sure, some posters will dismiss it as some sort of tinfoil hat theory while the Karls of the forum will blame "socialist" policies. In the end, what made America great will be it's undoing and that is greed. We stretched ourselves thin and bit off a lot more than we could ever hope to chew and without much help from so-called allies.

[Gannon]

Yeah...6 and 7 years ago...when I was saying China was executing the perfect judo move to completely topple our lumbering giant, I remember hearing arguments. I knew it was designed and planned, and was totally sick to see MY entire chosen industry, the hifi and video world, nearly completely go to China for production. I knew it was merely a microcosm of our entire economy. We joked uneasily about everything being Made in China, and how they didn't even have a glyph in their language for the term 'quality control'.


It WAS all about greed, with corporate capitalist bean counters and actuaries calling the shots instead of philosophers and forward thinkers. By their very nature, numbers people rely on the present and the past, they are largely not wired for prognostication and postulation. At least outside the variables their numbers present, they may spot linear trends...but few can imagine something novel coming from left field and beyond. Especially from someone who would not accept the basic premises of their university indoctrination...that greed was GOOD, and profit was the highest goal, honorable even to pursue it over the well-being of the people. Growth was assumed...perhaps blatantly putting THAT up as the greatest singular aim would seem voraciously anti-human to any who really considered the ramifications of it happening unchecked.


I guess that's what my life-habit of staying in the outfield, looking at the beyond and ethereal, gets me. One huge sigh, I feel like Charlie Brown. I know I am not alone. During that time I heard others chiming in, but mostly all harmonizing with the capitalist mantra, which was somehow sacrosanct.

Lowest prices everyday...with the lowest cost of materials and especially the lowest cost for labor, no matter the true cost to society and the world. I read through this article...and today my heart is heavy. Back to the plan of what to do WHEN it all blows apart, not IF. Ten years ago, I might've been able to muster an IF, but no longer.


C'est la VIE, this IS life...we make do with what we've been served. Today, I'll do the best with what I've got to make it through. How quickly until it all starts to come apart at the seams, or will the ground appear to fall away? Had a powerful dream this morning, but it is just beyond the veil for me now. Woke me up with a startle merely four hours before I finally was able to sleep.


May the One Who Made All Things help each of us see our next step, while we enjoy the one we're taking this moment.

[Johnlodge]

On the bright side, after that the world can blame China for everything bad that happens in the world, because either they did it, or didn't step in to stop it, and it won't be all our fault anymore.

[canuck]

I remember reading "The Roots of War" by Richard J Barnet about the crazy doings of the US in foreign countries and the people behind it 25 years ago, and thinking will this ever end? This sort of mock policing for a so-called expansion of democracy I have been wary of for a long time now. A bit of Chomsky here and there has helped me define the underhanded approach that all powerful countries have in order to encroach on the planet's lesser gods. I hope the US concentrates on problems at home and that the capitalists start moving to create the great society that although imperfect has made leaps in the past 40 years. We are starting to see billionaires putting money where their mouths are tagging with Buffett and Gates. Is that a good sign? I think it is. Because the big names in capitalism are like the sports heroes of social leadership. They rule by example for a lot of the smaller captains of industry.

[old guy]

That's an interesting scenario. Depressing but interesting. I don't question that the U.S. is in decline but the idea that over the next 15 years China will function perfectly as a well oiled machine might be a bit of a stretch for me. There are already signs of internal problems in China.
It's also based on the idea that no new, plausible energy sources will be developed. That technology is in the forefront of most major universities and corporations worldwide for obvious reasons.
The scenario could play itself out as described in the article though if we maintain our current course.

If nothing else, we've still got Hollywood.

[oladub]

I won't quibble with much in the article but I have a couple of issues.

Regarding energy, the US has a large supply of coal and suddenly has enough natural gas that there is talk of exporting it. We can also produce electricity with the wealth of wind blowing across our prairie states. Too bad that Porkulus wasn't more directed at improving our infrastructure. While China used it's stimulus money to build thousands of miles of high speed rail we bailed out teachers unions in overspending blue states. In a few years, a number of auto manufacturers will be producing electric cars thus diminishing our dependence on hostile nations for oil. Embargoes will only hasten the switch away from oil. So I think the author is a bit pessimistic on that count.

The dollar is collapsing but not only because of corporate greed. Sure, the bankers would like to have bailouts instead of losing their bonuses but the author seems to skim over corruption in government. It is, after all, government policy which continues to allow our jobs to be shipped overseas. Government is serving corporate interests in allowing this to happen but the author skims over the relationship of government and corporations.

China is looking after it's own interests better than the US is looking after the interests of it's own people. China is not manipulating it's money any more than most countries as is it's right. When the Federal Reserve prints money and thereby decreases the spending power of the dollar, then we too are manipulating our money. Also, noting that President Obama recently was in the news promoting a free trade agreement with South Korea, China isn't the only country trading our jobs for it's cheap manufactured products.

The author does make a good case that we are an overextended empire and that this economic empire in unsustainable and hastening the day of our economic demise.

[maxx]

Just look where we spend our money. If we put half as much into scholarships that we put into the military, we would be in much better shape.

[Johnlodge]

That's an interesting scenario. Depressing but interesting. I don't question that the U.S. is in decline but the idea that over the next 15 years China will function perfectly as a well oiled machine might be a bit of a stretch for me. There are already signs of internal problems in China.

Right at the top of my latest headlines BBC RSS feed:

Social discontent rising in China, says report

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12002253

[ghettopalmetto]

Too bad that Porkulus wasn't more directed at improving our infrastructure. While China used it's stimulus money to build thousands of miles of high speed rail we bailed out teachers unions in overspending blue states. In a few years, a number of auto manufacturers will be producing electric cars thus diminishing our dependence on hostile nations for oil.

I agree with you wholeheartedly on this point. Instead of putting half the stimulus package into tax cuts--which are already spent--$400 billion would have bought a LOT of high speed rail, which could eventually be powered by electricity [[You know, like in the rest of the civilized world). Of course, we had the foresight to let backwater governors-elect in Ohio and Wisconsin opt-out of the high speed rail program. I mean, how the hell do you connect the Midwest to the East Coast without Ohio? To me, that's an economic program of national importance that the White House should have forced onto those states--whether John "Lehman Brothers" Kasich personally likes it or not.

The upshot, though, is that electric cars are showing some promise. Hell, even cities in South Carolina [[not always known for being progressive) are installing charging stations as I write this. Unfortunately, it still means we have an economy predicated on everyone driving 30 miles each way to Walmart for all of his needs. It would be nice to have an economy where we didn't spend so much of our wealth building parking lots.

China is looking after it's own interests better than the US is looking after the interests of it's own people. China is not manipulating it's money any more than most countries as is it's right.

China does not allow its currency to float as most other currencies do. They have pegged the value of the renminbi to a certain fraction of a US dollar. When you're the second-largest economy in the world, this is unacceptable, and contributes to the enormous trade imbalance we have with China.

Quite frankly, we have a culture where we encourage individuals--especially the wealthy--to exploit the system for personal gain without regard for the larger well-being of the nation. It reeks of 17th century Poland, and it has made us both economically and politically weak. I'd like to see more nationalism and investment in the overall well-being of our nation. That doesn't mean flag-waving, frothing anger, and showing up to public forums with assault weapons. That means putting money into infrastructure instead of wars halfway around the globe, less favorable treatment for job exporters, greater investments in real education instead of multiple-choice tests, creating opportunties for people to start, maintain, and grow their own businesses instead of throwing tax cuts at giant corporations who merely relocate from state-to-state. And by golly, if that means we need to bump marginal tax rates by a couple percentage points, I'm all for it.

I fear, that if we keep on the course we're on, it's not long before we're partitioned as well. Instead of Germany, Austria, and Russia, though, we'll be "occupied" by China and India.

[Big Dog]

History shows that all empires have fallen. From Babylon, Greek , Roman and British. They all tried to stretch out and conquer the whole world, in the name of greed, religion and trying to change the world to have our their type of government. It is too late to save America. You can take it to the bank, if you trust banks now.

[oladub]

ghettopalmetto; "Of course, we had the foresight to let backwater governors-elect in Ohio and Wisconsin opt-out of the high speed rail program. I mean, how the hell do you connect the Midwest to the East Coast without Ohio?"

The yet to be Governor of Wisconsin did not opt out of the high speed rail program. He requested that the federal money designated for Governor Doyle's legacy boondoggle Madison-Milwaukee route be redesignated and be spent on the Minneapolis-Madison-Chicago high speed route. It was the Obama administration that decided to instead lavish this money on it's California friends presumably to build high speed railroads there. The decision was political. Madison only has a quarter of a million people and Milwaukee is out of the way on any route between Minneapolis and Chicago. It would have even made a lot more sense to have a high speed rail line between Chicago and Milwaukee than between Madison and Milwaukee because it would serve more people not including the more heavily populated area between Chicago and Milwaukee. Besides, the deal Governor Doyle made included purchasing Spanish trains which would not really be part of the Amtrak system. Spain afterward treated Gov. Doyle to a nice vacation.

China does not allow its currency to float as most other currencies do. They have pegged the value of the renminbi to a certain fraction of a US dollar. When you're the second-largest economy in the world, this is unacceptable, and contributes to the enormous trade imbalance we have with China.

China is under no obligation to support our sagging economy. The leaders of China have properly looked after their own peoples' interests. I only wish ours would do the same. If China did let it's currency float, it would create inflation in the US and China would accelerate it's purchases of the world's resource base. Why would you even want that? Either way, the balance of power is shifting as the author indicates.

[old guy]

The yet to be Governor of Wisconsin did not opt out of the high speed rail program. He requested that the federal money designated for Governor Doyle's legacy boondoggle Madison-Milwaukee route be redesignated and be spent on the Minneapolis-Madison-Chicago high speed route. It was the Obama administration that decided to instead lavish this money on it's California friends presumably to build high speed railroads there. The decision was political. Madison only has a quarter of a million people and Milwaukee is out of the way on any route between Minneapolis and Chicago. It would have even made a lot more sense to have a high speed rail line between Chicago and Milwaukee than between Madison and Milwaukee because it would serve more people not including the more heavily populated area between Chicago and Milwaukee. Besides, the deal Governor Doyle made included purchasing Spanish trains which would not really be part of the Amtrak system. Spain afterward treated Gov. Doyle to a nice vacation.

I'm curious as to where you came across this information. I've been following this in Wisconsin for the last year or so and this is the first time I've heard this slant. For one, the trains were being manufactured in Wisconsin by a Spanish company but now they're packing up and leaving. It was a pretty big manufacturing deal for us. All told, between the train manufacturing jobs and building the rail line we lost close to 5500 jobs, thank you very much Scott Walker.

The rest of the re-designation of funds as you describe them is also news to me.

[oladub]

I'm curious as to where you came across this information. I've been following this in Wisconsin for the last year or so and this is the first time I've heard this slant. For one, the trains were being manufactured in Wisconsin by a Spanish company but now they're packing up and leaving. It was a pretty big manufacturing deal for us. All told, between the train manufacturing jobs and building the rail line we lost close to 5500 jobs, thank you very much Scott Walker.

The rest of the re-designation of funds as you describe them is also news to me.

Draw a line on a map between Minneapolis and Chicago. The line actually goes a little southwest of Madison. It does not go to Milwaukee. Yet, the apologists for Governor Doyle keep claiming that without the new Spanish trains, somehow a monkey wrench has been thrown into the possibility of having a Minneapolis-Madison-Chicago route. Maps don't lie but Democrats do.

Remember, this is the same Governor Doyle who introduced taxes on hospital and nursing home patients in Wisconsin. He really cares.

Think about the claim that "we lost 5500 jobs". Madison has a population of 232,000. If the train just connects Madison with Milwaukee, are we supposed to believe that somehow 5500 new jobs will be created just to save a few minutes driving time between Madison and Milwaukee? Who is going to pay for that. Badger bus presently makes the run from the Milwaukee bus depot to the Madison Memorial Union in 1 hour and 50 minutes for $17.50 seven times a day with five stops in between.

If you want to believe that you lost 5500 jobs, it was the Obama administration that decided to spend that same money in California for presumably other high speed trains. Therefore, 5500 jobs were simply transferred to California and no jobs were lost. Obama simply preferred that the money be spent on his friends in California instead of on the Minneapolis-Madison-Chicago line as incoming [[he is not Governor yet) Governor Walker. This decision was made while Wisconsin still had a Democrat Governor, 2 Democratic Senators, and a majority of of Democratic Representatives. Where were they when Obama made his decision?

What we are talking about is $810M of federal spending. At 5% interest that amounts to $40M/year that US taxpayers were to be billed for just the interest every year on the Madison-Mliwaukee short line. If seven buses now run in each direction and carry an average of 30 passengers 365 days a year then roughly 153,300 passengers travel on Badger busses annually. Divide the $40M of annual interest by 153,300 passengers and each passenger would have to pay $261 just to pay the taxpayers back their interest on Governor Doyle's new Spanish trains. Let's say my numbers are off and the train carries twice as many people as Badger bus does now. Then the interest would only cost $130.50 per ticket. Of course this won't happen. Taxpayers will just be stuck with the bill paying back Chinese loans.

Here is a letter candidate Walker wrote President Obama.

Dear President Obama:

Last month, U.S. Transportation Secretary, Ray La Hood was in Wisconsin to release $46.7 million of the $810 million in federal stimulus money designated for a train line between Milwaukee and Madison. Releasing these federal funds now is both premature and irresponsible. Public support for the Madison-Milwaukee train has fallen to just 41% as weary taxpayers watch our roads and bridges crumble without sufficient funds to repair them.

Still, Secretary La Hood declared that: “High-speed rail is coming to Wisconsin," and "there's no stopping it."

I am drawing a line in the sand Mr. President: No matter how much money you and Governor Doyle try to spend before the end of the year, I will put a stop to this boondoggle the day I take office.

It’s outrageous for Secretary La Hood to suggest that your administration can force Wisconsin to continue building a train it doesn’t want and cannot afford. Almost as outrageous as the fact that the decision to saddle Wisconsin taxpayers with untold millions in operating and maintenance costs, forever, was never debated or voted on by the Wisconsin legislature. If it had been, this letter would not be necessary.

Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett, my opponent in the race to replace Governor Doyle, has made the Milwaukee to Madison train the centerpiece of his economic development plan for Wisconsin. The Mayor tells us that spending $810 million on high-speed rail will create thousands of new Wisconsin jobs, but according to the federal government’s own estimate, the total number of permanent jobs created will be 55. That’s $14.5 million per job, not including any hidden costs!

As for hidden costs, no one in your administration, nor Governor Doyle or Mayor Barrett can provide an accurate estimate of what it will cost to operate and maintain the new rail line. Rail projects in numerous other areas have seen original cost estimates skyrocket once construction begins.

In addition, study after study shows that rail passenger fares are likely to cover only 20% of the operating costs. That leaves hardworking Wisconsin families to pick up the other 80% through higher taxes and fees.

It’s reckless of Governor Doyle and Mayor Barrett to commit to spending $810 million of our money on a boondoggle train when we can’t even afford to fix our roads and bridges. Our state is facing a $2.5 billion hole in next year’s budget and a list a mile long of transportation needs. If your administration is truly interested in helping Wisconsin build the transportation infrastructure it needs and desires, you should allow us to use this money for roads and bridges instead.

Governor Doyle and Secretary La Hood say we can’t stop the train. I say, just watch us.

Sincerely,
Scott Walker

Milwaukee County Executive
Republican Candidate for Governor

[ghettopalmetto]

Draw a line on a map between Minneapolis and Chicago. The line actually goes a little southwest of Madison. It does not go to Milwaukee. Yet, the apologists for Governor Doyle keep claiming that without the new Spanish trains, somehow a monkey wrench has been thrown into the possibility of having a Minneapolis-Madison-Chicago route. Maps don't lie but Democrats do.

Above is a factually incorrect statement. Milwaukee is included on the Chicago-Milwaukee-Madison-Minneapolis route.

http://www.fra.dot.gov/rpd/passenger/618.shtml

[oladub]

It was a correct statement. Draw a line on a map between downtown St. Paul and downtown Chicago. Downtown Milwaukee is 45 miles to the closest point on that line. It would increase the trip's milage by 5%. Remember that the concept is supposed to be "high speed". Adding side trips does not create high speed. Maybe we could have a new concept of looping routes that go fast to out of the way places.Anyone who drives their car between Minneapolis and chicago will have a 5% head start the high speed train must first overcome.

There is no finalized route between Chicago and Minneapolis. There are routes that would bypass Eau Claire or LaCrosse and even two proposed routes that would bypass Madison. In addition, the Governor of Illinois is proposing a route going through northern Illinois bypassing Wisconsin entirely. The existing Amtrak route which goes through Milwaukee is just one option but not the fastest route. Governor Doyle's Spanish trains will probably not be part of the Amtrak system anyway because it uses different rolling stock.
http://westwisconsinrail.wordpress.c...-madison-stop/

If Governor Doyle's excursion train could not match Badger Bus rates of $17.50, how many minutes of travel time was the new train supposed to clip off the 1 hour and 50 minute Badger bus time to justify one or two hundred dollars of taxpayer money to subsidize every train ticket sold? Another thing I haven't heard; do the estimated 55 new permanent jobs take account for jobs lost at Badger bus? What about the riders who get on Badger bus at the edge of Milwaukee and Madison at parking garages? Will the train still stop for them or will they have to commute downtown to catch the high speed train?

Don't get me wrong. I like the idea of high speed trains but any government spending should have a relationship between expenditure and results. Doyle should never have made a no bid contract with a Spanish company. If the feds kick in, the money should be spent where it would serve the most riders.

[ghettopalmetto]

Never let the truth get in the way of a good story, eh Oladub? I mean, where do you get this "straight-line" business???

You might like to know that Ohio and Wisconsin were the "winners" of this money as the result of a highly-competitive program, where dozens of applications were vetted by the Federal Railroad Administration for cost-effectiveness as well as the potential for high ridership. Looks like we know which two states will be stuck in the 18th century while the remainder of the world moves forward, huh?

But don't let facts fuck up your opinion.

[Augustiner]

The yet to be Governor of Wisconsin did not opt out of the high speed rail program. He requested that the federal money designated for Governor Doyle's legacy boondoggle Madison-Milwaukee route be redesignated and be spent on the Minneapolis-Madison-Chicago high speed route.

If your administration is truly interested in helping Wisconsin build the transportation infrastructure it needs and desires, you should allow us to use this money for roads and bridges instead.

These two statements contradict each other.

[oladub]

Never let the truth get in the way of a good story, eh Oladub? I mean, where do you get this "straight-line" business???

You might like to know that Ohio and Wisconsin were the "winners" of this money as the result of a highly-competitive program, where dozens of applications were vetted by the Federal Railroad Administration for cost-effectiveness as well as the potential for high ridership. Looks like we know which two states will be stuck in the 18th century while the remainder of the world moves forward, huh?

But don't let facts fuck up your opinion.

I presented facts and numbers. You present political talking points and wishful fuzzy thinking. Your choice of language suggests your are short of facts.

I was a geography major. I notice things like that "straight-line business". High speed rails and side trips are different concepts. No route has been established anyway.

I choose numbers. You choose beliefs. Anyway, it was Obama who chose not to spend the $880M on the Minneapolis-Chicago route and sent the money to his friends in California instead. Presumably, he was pissed that Wisconsin voters saw fit to retire Governor Doyle. Your 18th century remark doesn't even acknowledge that the money will money will still presumably be spent on rail upgrade projects. At least California will reap the president's good will even if he doesn't favor Wisconsinites. Here we are losing a science and math contest to China as is mentioned in the OP article but you can only repeat political talking points. If $880M were spent on the Madison-Milwaukee project, you would need something like $4,724,000 per month just to amortize a $880M loan at 5% over 30 years. Please make the case justifying US taxpayers spending that much money to run six trains a day from Milwaukee to Madison [[population 231,000). If Obama's Federal Railway Administration things that make sense, perhaps you could show us which of their numbers justifies spending $4,724,000 to subsidize [[your number here) monthly riders so they can save [[your number here) minutes a trip.

So I will ask you again:
"If Governor Doyle's excursion train could not match Badger Bus rates of $17.50, how many minutes of travel time was the new train supposed to clip off the 1 hour and 50 minute Badger bus time to justify one or two hundred dollars of taxpayer money to subsidize every train ticket sold? Another thing I haven't heard; do the estimated 55 new permanent jobs take account for jobs lost at Badger bus? What about the riders who get on Badger bus at the edge of Milwaukee and Madison at parking garages? Will the train still stop for them or will they have to spend time commuting downtown to catch the high speed train?"

Also, since Gov. Doyle has left Wisconsin as one of the 10 most bankrupt states, where do you propose that Wisconsin come up with the estimated $7.5 of taxpayer operating subsidies the Doyle train is anticipated to cost. Should Wisconsin perhaps expand Governor Doyle's taxes on nursing home and hospital patients?

[oladub]

These two statements contradict each other.

They do contradict each other. Governor elect Walker pointed out that the State has crumbling existing infrastructure and wanted to spend the $880M on bridges and roads. . He has also backtracked a bit and proposed to President Obama the option of redesignating the money spent on Doyle's boondoggle to be spent on the the larger Chicago-Minneapolis high speed rail line. However, that would take an act of Congress. Obama wasn't in Walker's corner on that request.

[Gistok]

Oladub,

Why do you consider the scrapped plan as "Doyle's boondoggle"?

If you look at Interstate 94... it travels from Chicago to Milwaukee to Madison to Eu Claire to Minneapolis/St. Paul. That's not a straight line either... but it follows the population centers. [[Granted there are other ways to get to Madison from Chicago.) If you look at a lot of the worlds railroad lines... they often don't go in straight lines... they more often follow population centers... with a dash of topography thrown in for difficult routes.

I don't understand how the new governor would give up on the idea because the route stops in Wisconsin's largest city??

But your expertise in Geography does appears slightly clouded by your anti-rail bias.

[Augustiner]

They do contradict each other. Governor elect Walker pointed out that the State has crumbling existing infrastructure and wanted to spend the $880M on bridges and roads.

Walker said during his campaign that he planned to try to spend the money on roads, and he was told at the time that the money would go to other states' rail projects if he tried to do that. He did it anyway, and the money went to other states. No conspiracy there at all.

He has also backtracked a bit and proposed to President Obama the option of redesignating the money spent on Doyle's boondoggle to be spent on the the larger Chicago-Minneapolis high speed rail line. However, that would take an act of Congress. Obama wasn't in Walker's corner on that request.

Can you provide a source for this? I'm Googling, and can't find anything.

Anyway, with Congress deadlocked on absolutely everything up to and including the freaking START treaty, how likely do you think it is that an "act of Congress" could have gone through, and do you really think accommodating a petulant governor-elect who doesn't want to deal with the consequences of his campaign promises is the best use of Congress' time?

[oladub]

Gistok: "Oladub, Why do you consider the scrapped plan as "Doyle's boondoggle"?

1) I can't justify spending $880M for a train already served by seven busses going in each direction daily for $17.50 per ride and without subsidies. Even if the train doubled the number of riders, the cost of amortizing $880M is prohibitive.
2) The money could be better spent upgrading the entire line between Minneapolis and Chicago or spent running the same train service between Chicago and Milwaukee. Trains are great if they have the population to sustain them. Six trains daily between Milwaukee and Madison, population 231,000, is a fantasy. it would be similar to running six trains a day to Grand Rapids from Detroit every day except that Detroit and Grand Rapids have a greater combined population.
3) Governor Doyle didn't even put his boondoggle up for bid. He just gave a Spanish company the contract.
4) The Spanish rolling stock is not compatable with Amtrak equipment and will consequently create problems with Amtrak service.
5) The US and Wisconsin are effectively bankrupt. Money should be spent carefully."

If you look at Interstate 94... it travels from Chicago to Milwaukee to Madison to Eu Claire to Minneapolis/St. Paul. That's not a straight line either... but it follows the population centers. [[Granted there are other ways to get to Madison from Chicago.) If you look at a lot of the worlds railroad lines... they often don't go in straight lines... they more often follow population centers... with a dash of topography thrown in for difficult routes.

Anyone going between Chicago and Madison or Chicago and Minneapolis takes I-90, not I-94, between Chicago and Madison because it cuts about 15 minutes from the drive. Whether the train route goes to Eau Claire or La Crosse, through Madison, through Milwaukee, of even enters Wisconsin is a political decision yet to be made. The fastest route is, of course, a straight line if we are still talking about high speed trains. If we are talking about boondoggles or if the politicians decide to include Milwaukee for political or even economic reasons, that is different.

I don't understand how the new governor would give up on the idea because the route stops in Wisconsin's largest city??

But your expertise in Geography does appears slightly clouded by your anti-rail bias.

I do not have an anti-rail bias . Quite the opposite. I want rail money to be spent in a way that serves the most people. That is why I support the money being spent on the longer Chicago-Minneapolis line instead of being squandered between Madison and Milwaukee. I think that Governor Doyle did rail service a disservice spending so much where so few will use it. it reminds me of the Chinese empress who raided her naval budget to build a stone boat in the Imperial Garden.

I would also spend money on a Detroit-Toledo high speed rail route before upgrading the Wolverine to Chicago. Money saved could be applied to the high speed Chicago-East Coast route. That way, Detroit residents could get to the East Coast faster by rail and the Chicago-east Coast could be running sooner.

[oladub]

Augustiner: Walker said during his campaign[/URL] that he planned to try to spend the money on roads, and he was told at the time that the money would go to other states' rail projects if he tried to do that. He did it anyway, and the money went to other states. No conspiracy there at all.

No, Walker didn't do anything yet because he is not the Governor.

Can you provide a source for this? I'm Googling, and can't find anything.

Anyway, with Congress deadlocked on absolutely everything up to and including the freaking START treaty, how likely do you think it is that an "act of Congress" could have gone through, and do you really think accommodating a petulant governor-elect who doesn't want to deal with the consequences of his campaign promises is the best use of Congress' time?

I support the START Treaty for what it's worth. No, I don't suppose that Congress would support such a request should it have been made. Obama was pretty hot to get the money to California anyway so the deed has been done. As a fiscally failing blue state, California needs all the federal subsidies it can get. Gov. elect Brown is threatening a 20% cut in school funding.

I couldn't find the article I was after either but found this indicating, at least, that Walker was not out to get Amtrak service removed and seems to heartily support the Milwaukee-Chicago service. Nor is walker anti-trains per se.
"Walker argues that the state is overestimating the number of people who will take the train, which would leave state taxpayers on the hook for more than the $6 million to $7 million the state says will be required annually for ongoing maintenance and support. Residents of the Milwaukee area can get to Madison cheaper and faster by taking a car than by riding the train, the candidate argues.

That’s the key difference, Walker says, between the Milwaukee-to-Madison route and the popular Hiawatha line that runs from Milwaukee to Chicago already. People are willing to take the Hiawatha because it can save them time in traffic or money for parking. More than 740,000 riders took it in 2009, a 50-percent increase from seven years earlier. Walker supports state subsidies for the existing route, but not for its extension to Madison. He points out that an Amtrak train already runs from Chicago to the Twin Cities, even though it bypasses Madison."
http://www.digitalcommunities.com/ar...peed-Rail.html

"In Ohio, Gov.-elect John Kasich had declared dead a project that would have created passenger train service between Cincinnati, Columbus and Cleveland. He had requested that LaHood allow him to use the $400 million in federal funds on other transportation projects like road construction or freight lines.
The economic recovery law that authorized funding for high-speed rail projects stipulated that the funds can't be used for other purposes, however."
"http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101209/ap_on_bi_ge/us_high_speed_trains

[Augustiner]

No, Walker didn't do anything yet because he is not the Governor.

You're splitting hairs. You know what I meant.

I support the START Treaty for what it's worth.

Everyone supports the START treaty, that's my point. If the Senate can't even manage to pass a completely common-sense bill like that, they aren't going to get much else done either.

Obama was pretty hot to get the money to California anyway so the deed has been done.

Provide me some non-circumstantial evidence for this or I'll continue to assume you're making it up.

As a fiscally failing blue state, California needs all the federal subsidies it can get. Gov. elect Brown is threatening a 20% cut in school funding.

So you're arguing that this money will help California's fiscal situation? Why do you think it will bankrupt Wisconsin, then?

I couldn't find the article I was after either but found this indicating, at least, that Walker was not out to get Amtrak service removed and seems to heartily support the Milwaukee-Chicago service. Nor is walker anti-trains per se.

Maybe not, but I still have no evidence that he wanted the Milwaukee-Madison money applied to the direct Minneapolis-Chicago service. You can't blame Obama for refusing a request that Walker never made.

He had requested that LaHood allow him to use the $400 million in federal funds on other transportation projects like road construction or freight lines.
The economic recovery law that authorized funding for high-speed rail projects stipulated that the funds can't be used for other purposes, however."

Well, there you go. That's all there is to this story. Wisconsin and Ohio were offered funds for a specific purpose: high-speed passenger rail. They didn't want to use the money for that purpose, so they lost it. Simple as that. If Obama just wanted to randomly give money to California and Florida, wouldn't he have done that in the first place instead of making a big show of offering it to Ohio and Wisconsin?