Wayne State's math requirement.......

**Patrick** · December-13-10, 06:32 PM

http://detnews.com/article/20101213/...found-students

This is a very interesting artivle about Wayne State students failing the math requirement. I recall that I took an exam before 9/11/01 and a passing grade allowed me to "circumvent" the standard math course and take a sort of replacement if you will. I do recall the foreign language requirement to be very difficult. That said, WSU's standards seem to be much higher and more difficult than let's say Oakland or Eastern. What is your take on Wayne State's math requirement?

**Hermod** · December-13-10, 06:41 PM

When I went to college, calculus and analytic geometry [[14 credit hours worth) caused a mass exodus from the engineering and sciences programs into the more friendly confines of the liberal arts. Only 15% of my class passed all three semesters of calculus. The 85% either spent some time in summer school or went for a B.A. degree.

FoxyScholar10 · December-13-10, 06:54 PM

WSU undergrad here. I had four years of math in high school so I only had a basic math requirement. I recall only one semester/year of math at WSU [[I had a writing major). That math class was a nightmare [[significant accent/language barrier).

Wayne State is [[still?) a Research Intensive institution so it would make sense that their math requirements are higher than the comprehensive institutions [[EMU, Oakland, etc.)

ETA: My undergraduate degree is from WSU.

**Road_warrior** · December-13-10, 06:55 PM

Are we asking to much for college graduates to be able to do more advance math than basic addition and subtraction? I don't think so! I think the real problem is the weak requirements to become a college student at WSU. I always say "WSU is the best 4 year community college in the state."

Augustiner · December-13-10, 06:56 PM

I took the basic math competency test a few years ago. I remember it being kind of a joke, and I don't particularly like math or consider myself exceptionally good at it. If people are graduating high school without the ability to pass that test, that's a problem with our high schools, not with Wayne.

**Patrick** · December-13-10, 07:08 PM

I remember when public schools in MI made the change that required what, 3 or 4 years of mathematics. So many kids struggled with this because they weren't prepared properly in middle school. You can't just take someone with basic math skills and toss them into Algebra and it doesn't help if the teacher can't speak English well.

**p1acebo** · December-13-10, 07:31 PM

Originally Posted by Patrick

I remember when public schools in MI made the change that required what, 3 or 4 years of mathematics. So many kids struggled with this because they weren't prepared properly in middle school. You can't just take someone with basic math skills and toss them into Algebra and it doesn't help if the teacher can't speak English well.

Yes you can. It requires effort, they have to work at it if they want it.

**detroittrader** · December-13-10, 07:49 PM

I took the WSU math proficiency exam in 1987 or 88. It was a fairly new requirement at that point. I fiqured I would not pass the test and just have to take the class to prepare you for it. I sat down in the chair, stayed the whole 4 hours they gave you, tried to get my answers close [[it was multiple choice) and turned it in. I passed somehow and that was that.

Th real nightmare was the foreign language requirement. 3 progressive semesters. I did not study any language in high school, but my friend claimed he would help me if I took German. Big mistake...huge mistake, he claimed he did not "get" any of it by midway semester 1. I made it to semester 3 somehow, which was 10 people at a round table with a professor. The whole class was conducted in German. By the end he said to me in english: "Mr Murray, you have no idea what we are talking about do you?". I think he only passed me because I really was trying and he knew I was graduating.

**Jimaz** · December-13-10, 07:56 PM

Here's a video of a girl who loves math. Mind the puns:

Doodling in Math Class: Snakes + Graphs

The drawing of the boa that "ate eight eightgons" came from The Little Prince.

**Ray1936** · December-13-10, 07:58 PM

My disaster in taking Engineering at WSU a lifetime ago was my total inability to figure out a slide rule. Born twenty years too soon, I guess.

**Jimaz** · December-13-10, 09:23 PM

Originally Posted by Ray1936

My disaster in taking Engineering at WSU a lifetime ago was my total inability to figure out a slide rule. Born twenty years too soon, I guess.

So true. The irony to that of course is that slide rules themselves have become obsolete. You outlived your nemesis! Revenge of the Rays!

**Russix** · December-13-10, 09:31 PM

You only have to get 14 out of 55 questions right to get a math competency. http://clas.wayne.edu/multimedia/usercontent/File/Mathematics/Practice%20PEPartA.pdf
Their multiple choice, there is probably 14 questions in part A that are dead give always[[like arrange fractions in order, How much did Carlos make a week..,).
I don't think the problem is the test. Math is challenging because it forces your brain to work. It's not really so much the Algebra that is important, but developing your brain to do the Algebra really gives you a huge advantage. Plus you can skip the Algebra looking problems[[their not really algebra problems in Part A anyways) and do the basic Arithmetic problems and get a math competency. I took this test 3 times to get into Calc I, so if anyone is really struggling that hard with it on here, pm me and I’ll give you some advice on how to prepare for it.

**detroitsgwenivere** · December-13-10, 10:00 PM

The only two B's I ever received before obtaining my associates were both in math. College algebra and statistics to be exact. Both classes had professors who were both friendly and brilliant, but they could barely speak English and both whole classes complained regularly. When the one prof. said the word "distributrion," it sounded more like hiss-a-hoo-tia. Normally I wouldn't complain about diversity, but sheesh! How in the hell did that school actually expect us to understand that?!

I think I got the "you tried real hard and did the homework" B too.

**Meddle** · December-13-10, 11:11 PM

Are we asking to much for college graduates to be able to do more advance math than basic addition and subtraction? I don't think so!

Depends on their field of choice. Probably 80% or more of the population doesn't need to know more than that. Unless you're going into something like engineering, science or certain medical fields, I don't see the need. A lawyer doesn't need to know trigonometry, nor does a business major in most cases.

A factory worker doesn't, but a machinist might.

**detmsp** · December-13-10, 11:25 PM

The article says that the math test is high school level math. Sorry, but if you can't do high school level academics, why would you deserve a college degree?

Also, for those who mention having trouble learning from their foreign math teachers, I feel your pain. But we need to realize that the reason we have so many foreign math, science and engineering profs is that Americans are not succeeding in these disciplines. Easing math requirements will only make this worse.

**eno** · December-13-10, 11:35 PM

I had two and a half years of credits at Wayne State when I tried to fulfill the foreign language requirement. I had taken a class in Spanish my first semester at Wayne but dropped out when I vaguely remembered some of the language spoken in class the first day despite two years of high school Spanish. Wayne State was offering Swahili so I took it considering the entire class would be at the same level of exposure. That didn't work out either so I dropped the class. As an aside, the Swahili instructor was a Roman Catholic priest who signed off at Swahili competency for a "fee" and was eventually busted.

I returned to complete my Bachelor's degree at UM-Dearborn in the late 80s. At UMD, a foreign language requirement could be fulfilled by taking a pair of linguistics class. One could also take computer science courses for the same result. My credits from WSU transferred to two years credit at UMD. I finished up there three years later.

**professorscott** · December-14-10, 12:27 AM

Well, I teach Mathematics at University so I have a bias which can't be overcome, but so long as everyone knows that, here we go.

I have a big problem with people who want to get a University education only so they can ply some particular trade, and don't actually want to be educated, in general, at all. We get this at my University all the time, in the form of questions like "Why do I need to take a Philosophy class? How will that help me become a dentist?" Or, in my calculus class, "When will I ever need to use this?"

All of these questions miss the point, of course. The purpose of a University education is to give students a well rounded education, a holistic understanding of the world in which we live, the interplay among cultures, the political and sociological issues of the day, and so forth. You might also learn how to make some particular kind of a living while there, which is fine of course.

If you want to learn a trade, go to Specs Howard, a wonderful school, and they will teach you everything you need to know about the business and art of broadcasting. I'm not disparaging the school at all; quite the contrary, it is exactly what it says that it is, and does a superb job. But a University exists for a different reason, and it always frustrates the faculty when our students try to force us into the model of a school for which the purpose is to learn a trade.

If you are attending Wayne State University, and you are surprised that they expect you to have a basic knowledge of Mathematics in order to graduate, then you ought to have read the back of your ticket before you took your seat.

**Homer** · December-14-10, 12:53 AM

Well said Professor.

**Meddle** · December-14-10, 03:48 AM

"Why do I need to take a Philosophy class? How will that help me become a dentist?"

----

a well rounded education, a holistic understanding of the world in which we live, the interplay among cultures, the political and sociological issues of the day, and so forth.

But you don't need any of that to be a Dentist and you can't be a Dentist without a degree or by going to a technical school.

Tuition costs could be cut significantly by eliminating the fluff.

Too many 'professional educators' try to self justify their jobs by convincing others that they need to take the classes the 'professional educators' teaches. [["I need my job so I'll force people to take my class whether they really need to or not")

**Hermod** · December-14-10, 05:44 AM

Originally Posted by Ray1936

My disaster in taking Engineering at WSU a lifetime ago was my total inability to figure out a slide rule. Born twenty years too soon, I guess.

I still have my slide rule. It is a Pickett in "eye-saver yellow". I used to be a holy terror with it. It got me through four years of engineering 1957 to 1961. One of the worst classes in college was Descriptive Geometry where among other things, you had to draw nomograms and design custom slide rules to solve specific problems. Trade associations used to put out special purpose slide rules in cardboard. I still have one that calculates size and flow in concrete sewer pipes. The Hydraulics prof got a bunch of them from some concrete pipe manufacturer's association and would give one to each student when we got to that part of the course.

**Hermod** · December-14-10, 05:53 AM

Originally Posted by professorscott

I have a big problem with people who want to get a University education only so they can ply some particular trade, and don't actually want to be educated, in general, at all. We get this at my University all the time, in the form of questions like "Why do I need to take a Philosophy class? How will that help me become a dentist?" Or, in my calculus class, "When will I ever need to use this?"

All of these questions miss the point, of course. The purpose of a University education is to give students a well rounded education, a holistic understanding of the world in which we live, the interplay among cultures, the political and sociological issues of the day, and so forth. You might also learn how to make some particular kind of a living while there, which is fine of course.

I wonder how the kids today would have taken it when I went to college. Registration was "what is your major?" When you answered, they said "here is your schedule." You had no choice of classes taken, hours when class was held, or instructor.

Subsequent Septembers, it was "is that still your major and did you pass everything last year?".. If the answer was yes, you got your schedule. If you didn't pass everything, they had to work out a special schedule and you were an "irregular".

Finally, when our last year came up on us, we were permitted to choose a single three semester hour "cultural elective".

For four years, I always had an 8AM class Monday through Saturday. All classes were either M-W-F or T-Th-S.

**ruth** · December-14-10, 07:19 AM

Meddle - I think you are missing a point made by professorscott. The well-rounded education that includes humanities, social sciences, life sciences and quantitative analysis gives students the skills they need to communicate effectively, think and read critically, to write clearly and to research, analyze, and question. Those skills don't come from medical or dental schools. Those skills come from the undergraduate education. Those skills lay the foundation for, and are required by professional schools - medical, dental, pharmaceutical, law or any other graduate program. Moreover, recent studies show that most employers in 2011 are looking for five particular areas of experience in their new applicants: Verbal Communication Skills, Strong Work Ethic, Teamwork Skills, Analytical Skills and Initiative. [[I’m quoting from a study just released last week by NACE)

Your example of a dentist is good - but think a bit beyond the skill of drilling a tooth. Don't you want your dentist to be able to communicate with you, to read and effectively critique the latest techniques presented in professional journals, or to understand and work with the psychological issues that affect his or her patients? These are the skills learned in the areas of study I mentioned earlier.

Professorscott wasn’t justifying his position – he was justifying a quality education that too many students want to avoid in search of an income. The resistance students have toward learning something outside of their skill-set is a resistance not based in economy, it's a resistance to opening one's self to inquiry and discovery outside of one's comfort zone.

It's not fluff - it's education

**Meddle** · December-14-10, 07:37 AM

No, I didn't miss a point.

Fluff is fluff. A way for colleges to get more tuition dollars by making people take unrelated classes.

**ruth** · December-14-10, 08:18 AM

.............big sigh........

FoxyScholar10 · December-14-10, 08:32 AM

Originally Posted by Meddle

No, I didn't miss a point.

Fluff is fluff. A way for colleges to get more tuition dollars by making people take unrelated classes.

Meddle, it's not unrelated. It's all part of exposing students to a variety of ideas, principles, concepts, etc. so that they can develop and apply critical thinking.

My high school physics professor often told us to get paid for what/how we think, not for what we can do with our hands. Unfortunately, many of those auto workers who dodged/didn't finish school didn't get that message and now look: they're having to go where? Back to school to get what they didn't get the first time around because now these auto companies want workers who can think about what they're doing. OUCH!

A dentist needs to think as well as coordinate with his/her hands. Ideas from that philosophy class may kick in when the dentist has a fearful or unruly patient.

BTW: I dodged all those philosophy courses; I did take a humanities class. It was worth it then and now. It's worth it even moreso now because our world is getting smaller in terms of interaction with other cultures, etc.

In fact, the lack of what you, Meddle, call "fluff" courses contributes to America's rapid decline in comparative educational attainment overall with other countries. We're too arrogant and lazy to put the work in to learn about ourselves as individuals, as a nation, and how we fit in the global marketplace.