Bashing Public School Teachers

[mauser]

This is in response to an editorial in the Detroit News. I am not citing the Detroit News link, because the individual who write the letter sent it out to be distributed for us to read. Everybody knows the "teachers get paid too much, unions are evil, slash their pay" argument, because your television told it to you - so just consider this reaction.


Dear Senator Bishop-
I'm writing to you in response to the "Teacher Pay" article featured on the front page of today's Detroit News.

I'm married to a teacher in the Troy School District , so I get a firsthand look
at the "day in a life" of an elementary educator. So I would say that I'm
highly qualified to give you some firsthand insight into this subject.

As you probably know, Troy is one of the most highly regarded districts in the state of Michigan . The demands on teachers to maintain the level of excellence is overwhelming. Districts are applying more and more pressure and requirements on teachers than ever before.

The quote that was attributed to you..."[[Teaching) is an awfully nice job to have for that kind of pay", is, to say the least, naive and irresponsible. I would challenge you to spend a week shadowing her, to see how much goes into running an effective classroom. Try managing a group of 25 children, from all different backgrounds/cultures, personalities, and academic strengths and weaknesses. Now, add to that 50 or so parents who have their own set of expectations of how each of their kids should be "individually" handled.

Then, add pressure from the district to "fit in" more and more curriculum into each available hour of the school day. After being on your feet for 7 hours, when the children have left for the day, the second half of the day begins.

Things like: organizing the classroom, following up on e-mails from parents, preparing the next day's lessons, etc.

Then, its home by 5 or 5:30.sometimes 6:00. Eat dinner, spend some time with the family, and then check homework and/or tests all evening. Get up the next day and do it all over again. It is an exhausting job...rewarding yes, but exhausting.

It takes a very special type of person to be a teacher. I wouldn't last one week in a classroom full of elementary children. I'm guessing that the majority of the population wouldn't either.

These teachers are just as important as any doctor, lawyer, engineer, or similar profession. In fact, I would say that the responsibilities of their job have a far greater implication our national welfare than most any other.

Oh, I forgot to mention that every few years, teachers need to take college courses to maintain their certification.

The article continues to mention that other sectors, such as manufacturing, have had to take payroll cuts. How is this linked to the teacher salaries? The failure of the manufacturing industry had more to do with poor products, corporate greed and poor management decisions. Automotive executives ran their organizations into the ground with poor quality products that Americans decided weren't good enough to purchase. Only until the bailout did they figure out that they better get their act together. Greed by top executives, and stockholder pressure failed these companies.

I see no parallel between the failure in the manufacturing sector and how much a teacher should or shouldn't earn.Parents demand excellence from the Troy School District ; the teachers are, at the core, held to a higher standard than many other districts. This is not to say other districts aren't excellent in their own right, but the proof is in the pudding; Troy schools are recognized as one of best. not only the State of Michigan, but in the nation as well.

Yes, a teacher receives 9 weeks of vacation during the summer, but I can assure you, they've made up for those hours throughout the other 9 1/2 months of the year. [[this is when they take their expensive college courses to maintain certification - mauser)

Finally, and this is no joke, I think many teachers are underpaid. I've been in sales for over 20 years, and have seen all sorts of people make well over six figures. How can a guy selling cars make over 100 grand a year? How can a woman selling makeup make over 100 grand? How can a guy selling insurance make over 200 grand? How can a woman selling IT solutions make well over 100k? How can a professional football player make millions for playing 16 football games? How can a comedian make millions for telling jokes? Why do ambulance chasers make hundreds of thousands?

Are these jobs more important than someone who is willing to take children under their wing, teach them, nurture them, feed their minds, give them a safe environment, and essentially become their surrogate parents? I don't think so.

In closing, Mr. Bishop, if you haven't taken the time to spend a week with an elementary school teacher, from 7:30 in the morning to 10:00 at night, you are not qualified to speak on this subject. Otherwise, I would invite you to contact me and arrange a time to discuss this further.

If you ever take the time to fully understand the role and demands of a public educator, you would most likely be fighting to save their pay and maybe even argue that they deserve a whole lot more.

-Respectfully

Robert Brozowski

Troy Resident

[mauser]

a member of my family is a millionaire from making stupid corporate powerpoint presentations for the grotesquely wealthy auto executives. [[yes, the one we bailed out)

my wife - a public school teacher - took a 30,000.00 pay cut this year, courtesy of President Barack Obama.

Pretty soon these idiots are going to be teaching their own brats, if they keep allowing the Free Market Jackals to destroy Public Education. Teaching fucking SUCKS - i have no idea how my wife does it , with the snotty ignorant kids, the parents that use lawyers to demand an "A" in every subject, administrators who openly admit their joy in torturing teachers, and a populace that treats teachers like al Qaeda, because they are organized labor.

God forbid my wife earn a living and have health insurance for our baby. What absolute greed - how dare she want such luxuries !

[mauser]

" Try managing a group of 25 children"

The class sizes in my wifes district actually push 40 students. [[Farmington)

[j to the jeremy]

Wonderfully said. I volunteered for a year in a 5th grade class mentoring some of the "difficult" kids and I have so much respect for schoolteachers. I think the job is quite difficult and our culture undervalues jobs that don't yield direct profits for a business. Teachers ideally would make far more than NFL players, but that's not how corporate capitalism works.

[JBMcB]

I have no problems with teachers making stacks of money. Give them as much as the city can afford, if they are performing accordingly.

My problem is with not being able to get rid of teachers who are terrible. I'd be all for 30% raises across the board if the administration was allowed to get rid of lousy teachers. And don't bring up the whole "how do you grade performance" nonsense - just culling those who are obviously phoning it in would be a huge step in the right direction.

[gumby]

I understand your frustration mauser. My mother is a teacher and it always annoys me when I see people who make twice as much money doing half the work complain that teachers are over paid.

[gumby]

I have no problems with teachers making stacks of money. Give them as much as the city can afford, if they are performing accordingly.

My problem is with not being able to get rid of teachers who are terrible. I'd be all for 30% raises across the board if the administration was allowed to get rid of lousy teachers. And don't bring up the whole "how do you grade performance" nonsense - just culling those who are obviously phoning it in would be a huge step in the right direction.

I don't understand how teachers don't just phone it in with all of the abuse and BS they have to take from the general populous all the time never receiving support from the administration of their schools.

[johnsmith]

" Try managing a group of 25 children"

The class sizes in my wifes district actually push 40 students. [[Farmington)

I agree with just about everything you said mauser. I want to add, junior high/middle school and high school teachers, who are responsible for 6 or 7 classes [[I know one teacher who has 8!), have to deal with 150 to 200+ students every day, and all the grading etc. that goes with it. It only takes a few obnoxious students to completely f#ck up a classroom too and make the job of teaching next to impossible and very exhausting. There is continuous increase in government intervention [[i call it interference) at the state and federal levels, and it's all the teacher's fault if a student is a failure. It's sickening to hear politicans put the blame on the schools and the teachers. I am friends or family with at least half a dozen teachers, so know a lot of their challenges almost first-hand.

[Danny]

We must elimate teachers with tenure!

We must elimate unqualified teachers.

Keep the teachers in the union fair and just with equal salaries, health care and benefits for all masses.

[Detroitnerd]

I am so glad to see Mike Bishop on the way out. His votes aren't for sale, of course. But, as one person noted, there are attractive lease options available.

[Novine]

Being lectured by Mike Bishop about being overpaid for the work one does is like being lectured on morals by Jimmy Swaggart. Overpaid and unproductive are the kindest things one could say about Senator Bishop.

[mauser]

I have no problems with teachers making stacks of money. Give them as much as the city can afford, if they are performing accordingly.My problem is with not being able to get rid of teachers who are terrible. I'd be all for 30% raises across the board if the administration was allowed to get rid of lousy teachers.

I highlighted the "supply side economics" error in your statement. A school is not a for-profit factory. CEOs are paid millions to "retain talent". Teachers should be paid at LEAST commensurate with the tens of thousands that they pay for their own degree and certification. Everyone demands a high level of education for the teachers, yet act dumb when its time to pay up.

I highlighted the second error - and pardon the venom, but you were told that by your television, and you have no idea if there is a due process for removing a tenured teacher or not. There is, but they are pretending there is not, to whip the public into a lynch mob mentality.

Also: why no accountability for administration ? They hire these "lousy" teachers you speak of. If school systems fail, it is the people that run them who have failed. Not the bottom of the food chain employees. But they are the ones in the news.

It is all fake - and it is simply about union busting. My wifes union is the most powerful in the USA at this time, although it is not long for this world. After the UAW rolled over and gave everything away, the Free Market neoConservatives [[both democrat and republican) smelled blood in the water for the teachers unions.

This is not about teaching.

I will bracket all my bitching with the fact that I had a HORRIBLE public school experience personally, growing up in Sterling Heights, in the Utica Community School district. Most of my education was pre-Reagan era too.

So I am in favor of fixing things - absolutely. Absolutely. But these damn radicals who insist on burning it all down and raiding the financial coffers are coming straight from hell.

If I had my way, Id send them all back there.

[rjk]

" Try managing a group of 25 children"

The class sizes in my wifes district actually push 40 students. [[Farmington)

When I went to Catholic grade school in the 70's each classroom had 35 to 40 kids. When my brother went to the same school in the 60's there were 45+ in each classroom.
I came across this recently when I was looking at some of our school photos. Of course the teachers union is going to complain about class size. The smaller the class size means more teachers need to be hired.

[mauser]

I agree with just about everything you said mauser. I want to add, junior high/middle school and high school teachers, who are responsible for 6 or 7 classes [[I know one teacher who has 8!), have to deal with 150 to 200+ students every day, and all the grading etc. that goes with it. It only takes a few obnoxious students to completely f#ck up a classroom too and make the job of teaching next to impossible and very exhausting.

very important points there johnsmith, and lets add in the giant elephant in the room - the special education children, whichever classification you have in a school; Emotional Impaired, children who require parapros, kids with mental disabilities - these kids lost TONS of their support staff, and my wife IS NOT QUALIFIED TO TEACH MOST OF THEM.

And further - she is not paid for that either. Different degree, different skill set.

So while Johnny needs attention for his math problem in the corner, the teacher may be wrestling with a child who demands 200% of the attention at the expense of every other child in the room.

Not fair to the average kids, not fair to my wife.

No - not done. This is a VIOLATION OF CIVIL RIGHTS for the children with special needs. They deserve full attention from properly trained and qualified staff. They IN FACT have more rights than an average [[I just cant bring myself to say "normal") child.

It isnt teachers failing - its all of you [[us) in the public who have failed the children of the United States of America.

Shut off that fucking FOXNEWS and go find out what is really happening.

[mauser]

When I went to Catholic grade school in the 70's.

unlike your teachers, my wife is not allowed to hit the children to manage that size of class.

50 minute class, 45 children - each needs help - if you learned math at the parochial school, use it now and tell me that this is an effective way to teach.

Oooooooohhhhhh - you want the teacher to stay after hours for free to tutor the overage of children in the class.....for free. Right ?

[mauser]

Read this:
http://www.freep.com/article/2010121...038/1001/rss01

"GM to pump millions into helping United Way improve metro Detroit high schools"

Okay, United Way was one of the financial backers of the anti-union propaganda film "Waiting for Superman". The article says that any Detroit schools who get this assistance "will follow an existing United Way model"...............

When the hell did United Way become a front for anti-union school privatization ? ? ? ?

[bailey]

You know what would end the problem is allowing local communities to increase property taxes for the local schools. I know where I live people would do it...as long as it stayed here and didn't get thrown in the pot. If a city wants to tax themselves more so they can spend 18k per kid to ensure small class sizes and top pay, well then let them.

[gdogslim]

"A Millionaire from making pwer point presentations? "
He must be the best in his field at that then.

I don't think teachers are overpaid, and I know they work hard and have to deal with a ton of BS. But I do think they have great tax paid pensions for retirement that most workers don't have. I also detest the NEA and other teacher unions and their agenda.
RE: 'my wife - a public school teacher - took a 30,000.00 pay cut this year, courtesy of President Barack Obama. "
How did Obama do that, I thought he saved the unions.? Obama also had closed the best public voucher schools in DC

[jackie5275]

unlike your teachers, my wife is not allowed to hit the children to manage that size of class.

The teachers in Catholic schools aren't allowed to hit the children either!!!! Hitting kids in Catholic school went out with the nuns. My brothers & I went through Catholic schools in the 70s & 80s. I have colleagues who sent their kids to Catholic schools in the 90s & 00s. There was no hitting of students going on. I send my kid to a Catholic school. There's no hitting of students going on there either now. My brother-in-law teaches at a Catholic school. He's never hit any student. He can't. He'd be fired. Plus, he does all the same things your wife does for about $23K a year. That's dedication.

[Det_ard]

The blanket praises of teachers are bullshit. SOME teachers are really good, not all, not most. Some are really poor. Most are average. It's a bit much to act as if all teachers are worthy of the praises sung by the op-ed letter author.

And the same goes for administrators, and the folks we elect to the school board in the city and in the suburbs. K-12 education in this country has become a cesspool of mediocrity. Look at the universities' schools of education. It's not nearly as rigorous as any of the other professional schools like engineering, law, medicine, pharmacy, dentistry, or accounting. Similarily, while much is made of the Master's degreed teachers, those degrees are typically from diploma mills like Davenport or Baker, not highly regarded universities. Color me not impressed. Add to that math and science teachers who never studied those topics in HS or college, and you have a bunch of moms and dads who did take the tough courses that have to explain mathematical and scientific concepts to their children when their teacher can't.

The recent international PISA assessment of students in OECD countries revealed our system's weakness. Do you know what the highest achieving countries had in common? Their educational systems recruit teachers from the top 5% - 10% of the class. Our teachers [[nothing personal) come from the bottom third of the class. They have below average SAT scores. They overwhelmingly gravitate to softer areas and avoid all those classes with numbers and formulas. Yet it's acknowledged that excellent teachers are critical to a student's education.

How often do you hear about a teacher being let go for poor teaching? How about virtuallly never. How is it that teachers who were academically below average when sitting in class suddenly are all highly proficient in front of a class? What percentage of teachers are fired each year for being inadequate teachers? 0.5%? Less? The dead wood just accumulates and accumulates since the system is built to focus on the adults at the expense of our kids.

I've complained, along with many other parents about an incompetent teacher in my well-regarded school district. The result? That teacher was shuffled from K to 1st, so she can sabotage another year of our childrens' education. What are our options? Private school? School of choice? -- notice its never Teacher of Choice, there'd be some teachers with empty classrooms, and some bursting at the seams. Parents and other teachers know who the good ones are and who the bad ones are but the bad ones stick around forever, knowing they'll never have it so good anywhere else, all the while screwing over another 30 kids a year.

As long as the system treats an excellent teacher like a poor teacher the system will continue to suck. And that helps keep good potential teachers out of the system because they know they won't be allowed to rise above the worst slackers in their midst.

Teachers don't have an easy job, but what professional does? We all answer emails in the evening, work on weekends and while on vacation [[oops, teachers don't have to do much of that all summer). We all have continuing education requirements, either imposed by rule or by competitive necessity. We all have stresses, overbearing bosses and are being pulled seventeen different ways by difficult and demanding customers, colleagues, agencies, vendors and competitors. Most teachers have never had a non-teacher career. They don't realize that they're not the only ones with demanding jobs. Try the eat-or-be-eaten international competitive for-profit world sometime. One of my co-workers did [[plant manager), he went back to teaching. In his words, it was "easier, less stressful and better paying, and I get my summers off again".

I agree the job of a teacher is critically important. I have no problem with great teachers making $100,000+. My childrens' future is at stake. That's why I refuse to buy into the status quo bullshit canonizing all teachers when most are mediocre at best and the results prove it. Michelle Rhee has it right, we need radical change and we need to obliterate anyone standing in the way, and right now that's most teachers, administrators, school boards and their spouses who depend on their salary and benefits.

[lafayette]

Mauser, you're exactly right on every point you make, although I disagree with your asides about the UAW. But that's not the focus of this thread.

Two things are different now and you touch so well on one of them - the right-wing propaganda that has successfully convinced the ignorant American public that public school teachers are lazy, overpaid union members.

The second elephant in the room no one talks about is the parents of today's kids. They are a good part of the reason class sizes are so big and schools are being nickled and dimed [["It's my money! No new taxes!"). Parenting today and its shortfalls are also a big cause of why teaching is so hard today. Parents today are their kid's attorneys there to make sure their child is always happy, always #1, and experiences nothing to hurt his "self-esteem." Since the beginning of time up until today's crop of indulgent parents came along, kids were taught [[correctly) they had to earn self esteem, not be granted it, and that adults are not here to make you feel happy all the time and entertain you. Kids now are taught that that is adult's primary role in their lives. It makes them unteachable because there are no expectations, automatically granted self esteem and no fear of repercussions for doing substandard work or misbehaving in school because A) your parent will always defend any behavior and not back up the school/teacher and B) your teacher's hands are tied by parents and principals from doing anything but granting self esteem, regardless of what the student is doing.

Up until today's generation of parents, a huge part of the reason kids did OK in school was structure, reinforcement and backing up of the SCHOOL'S goals in the classroom by the parents, not telling the child you are perfect in every way and mommy and daddy will always fight those mean teachers if they do anything or say anything you don't like because your self esteem can't be taken away no matter what you do! You're a wonderful child no matter what and you come first, not doing what your teacher expects of you.

What's too often missing in kids who aren't learning can be laid at the feet of their parents, NOT TEACHERS OR THE SCHOOL; parents who don't reinforce what the teachers are trying to do in terms of curriculum [[making sure their homework is done, they have proper rest and nutrition, proper attention spans to sit for more than 30 seconds), self-control in the classroom so students can learn and teachers can teach, and a healthy respect for authority in the classroom. These things can only be done by parents, not teachers. They used to be done automatically by most parents and teachers could expect that they were living up to their end of the education bargain on these issues. It's not done in so many cases now.

Here's what too many teachers get now from most parents: arrogant/advocate parents to deal with and entitled/low-attention span children to try to teach, all created by the parents. But when it's time to blame someone for a poor outcome, the teacher gets 100% of the blame for poor learning when the parent didn't live up to his/her responsibilities that are critical to the success of the education process.

I'm sick and tired of no one looking at the parents and how they don't prepare their children to learn in a classroom setting.

When does the big debate about what's wrong with education ever, ever include today's parents and what they're doing wrong? Almost never. Why? Parenting creates the student mindset that the teacher has to work with in the first place and parents have to back up what the teacher is doing in order for the teacher to succeed. So, why are they left out of the criticism? It gets back to Mauser's correct theory, that "fixing" education is about union busting, plain and simple. If they really wanted to fix it they'd be putting parents under as big a microscope as they put teachers because parents are at least half of the equation of what creates good learning in students.

[lafayette]

My God, what district allows cell phones ON in the classroom? Where does she work?

[Patrick]

I will bracket all my bitching with the fact that I had a HORRIBLE public school experience personally, growing up in Sterling Heights, in the Utica Community School district. Most of my education was pre-Reagan era too.

I was in Warren Consolidated and I would say that a good 60% percent of my teachers from K-12 were terrible. I will point out that I didn't have a "young" teacher until 10th grade. So, for 11 years I had teachers who were all over the age of 50 and didn't give a shit about learning new methods or new technology. They just wanted their pension and retirements.

[DetroitTeacher]

With my being on the front lines, I think I can speak with some authority on this subject. I spend, on average, over 2 grand a year on supplies for the classroom. Add to that my tuition, books, and all of the extras that I feel the kids should have [[not required, but to make my lesson interesting, I buy it for my classroom). Add to that the money I have to spend to replace the things that the kids steal [[pens, laptops...you get the picture). That's just cash. Take into account the HOURS I spend EACH night grading papers, tweaking lessons, writing recommendations, emailing back and forth with kids [[they need the extra help), doing MY homework for the classes that I MUST take, attending classes, volunteering for extra-curriculars, and anything else that my smooshy brain can't think of right now and you have a 13 hour day [[at the very least). Sometime in there I have to squeeze in sleeping, eating, and paying attention to things at home. I am sick 9 1/2 months of the year [[I've seriously been on antibiotics for 2 solid months so far, all for different ailments) because parents send their kids to school sick [[I'd say I deserve the health insurance). I pay into my retirement [[it's called MIP...look it up) so it's not a cushy retirement package [[it's really MY money from the get go), pay for my health insurance, have limits on what I can spend at the dentist, and I donate 250.00 a pay to Robert Bobb.

Do I think I make good money? Sure. Do I spend some of it on my kids? I sure do [[probably much more than anyone else spends to do their job...I mean, who else has to buy their own stapler, paper, pay for copies at Kinkos, provide their own computer, buy toilet paper, soap, clean their own office, buy writing utensils, cleaning supplies, or volunteer to work on a project for free??). Do I love my job? Yep [[not all the BS...but I do love the kids).

I still need novels for my classroom. No one seems to know where they are. I still need the kids to turn off their phones [[yes, it's their mama calling) and pay attention. I still need the kids to actually come to school on a regular basis [[and not wait for the DTE guy or the delivery truck or babysit...although they do come to school sick). I still need to see more than TWO parents at parent/teacher conferences. I still need a working phone number so I can contact parents. I still need a lot of things. Am I going to get it all? Nope, not any of it.

[rjk]

Color me skeptical when teachers talk about the amount of money they spend on kids. Everytime there's a teachers strike you hear about the amount of money they spend on children. How can one not be on the side of the teachers when they strike or when a millage needs to be passed when so much of their money is going to the kids.